426 réponses à ce sujet

[Average Gatsby]

skarlson wrote...

Gatsby,

I am not sure your soldier/adept comparison is really valid. In order for you to compare the two it would be more appropriate to say adepts shouldn't need to rely on squadmates to perform biotic combos is like saying soldier's shouldn't need to rely on squadmates to use guns. However, soldiers at not reliant on squadmates to use guns so if you are saying adepts need to be reliant on squadmates by design then by implication soldiers are stronger due to the lack of a reliance on squadmates to perform their primary function of shooting things.

If me conceeding this one point gets people to read the other points on that thread and watch my vids on showing how sweet the adept can be, I'll conceed it was not the best analogy to use.

[WillieStyle]

Perhaps a better analogy is this:

An Infiltrator focused on sniping is more effective if she uses her squadmates' powers to strip barriers/shields than if she tries to strip them herself.

Using warp/overload from squadmates frees up her cooldowns for Tactical Cloak and Incinerate. It also means she doesn't loose dps time swapping to her SMG and back again.



In the same manner, an Adept is at his best when relying on squadmates to create combos. Certainly the Adept can Strip defenses and create Biotic combos on his own, but he is more effective when using his squadmates.

[skarlson]

Honestly, this whole discussion is why I don't ever bother with anything but the default difficulty. That is the way the game is meant to be played and how it is balanced. Take any class on normal difficulty and they will probably be fun. I played the vanguard on my last play through because of all the vanguard videos I saw of people playing on insanity. Once you get used to the charge mechanics it is a fun class to play; it can really clear an area fast.

[Average Gatsby]

skarlson wrote...

I would also add on the presentation video for Adepts it says they are able to control opponents using only THEIR biotic powers which is demonstrated on screen by the biotic pulling off a pull/throw combo. The intent is for them to be able to do their own combos not combos with squadmates although that is certainly also a possibility and was another intent I am sure. Also, in mass effect 2 no one is better at controlling the battlefield than an adept; from the class reveal again. The balancing someone mentioned, where the game was balanced around normal not insanity, again speaks of the intent with adepts which is for the most part they are supposed to be able to control the battlefield. If the intent is the game is balanced around normal and if you want to play insanity then do so at your own risk, take it as it is, then fine but don't pretend that things are equally fine between all classes.

Very true. But, the thread is about fun-ness, not whether christina norman was right in making those claims about the adept on difficulties above veteran.

Back to my response OP, I said I saw 3 main issues that people had on it not being fun. I have videos, and will make more, showing that those particular reasons are not entirely accurate. Unfortunately, threads on something as Esoteric as how "Fun" something is tend to get derailed pretty easily into claims that something is bad. I'm out to show that the adept is not bad nor a one trick pony. If someone dislikes it for a reason besides the ones I listed, then I'm not going to argue.

[skarlson]

WillieStyle wrote...

Perhaps a better analogy is this:
An Infiltrator focused on sniping is more effective if she uses her squadmates' powers to strip barriers/shields than if she tries to strip them herself.
Using warp/overload from squadmates frees up her cooldowns for Tactical Cloak and Incinerate. It also means she doesn't loose dps time swapping to her SMG and back again.

In the same manner, an Adept is at his best when relying on squadmates to create combos. Certainly the Adept can Strip defenses and create Biotic combos on his own, but he is more effective when using his squadmates.

I would point out however that I've seen videos of infs one shotting stuff left and right on insanity through all of their defenses or dropping them with multiple shots in a second or two if they are using a multishot gun instead of the widower. I don't think I've seen any videos of adepts one shotting anything with warp? Have there even been any videos of an adept one shotting anything by exploding another biotic using warp on insanity? I've seen plenty of videos of adepts working to strip defenses using cds but that is hardly the same. I may be mistaken however since as I said earlier I don't play insanity so my experience is only from watching videos. I've seen quite a few but that is still limited.

[Average Gatsby]

skarlson wrote...

Honestly, this whole discussion is why I don't ever bother with anything but the default difficulty.

So I went back and read the OP again and noticed that he was talking about it not being fun on normal difficulty. I think I'm just going to shake my head and walk away from this whole thing. Its an absurd debate anyway. We can only argue if someone is right or wrong in their reason for something being fun or not. We can never prove that something actually is or isn't fun.

[Average Gatsby]

delete

Modifié par Average Gatsby, 18 février 2010 - 01:48 .

[skarlson]

Average Gatsby wrote...
Very true. But, the thread is about fun-ness, not whether christina norman was right in making those claims about the adept on difficulties above veteran.

Back to my response OP, I said I saw 3 main issues that people had on it not being fun. I have videos, and will make more, showing that those particular reasons are not entirely accurate. Unfortunately, threads on something as Esoteric as how "Fun" something is tend to get derailed pretty easily into claims that something is bad. I'm out to show that the adept is not bad nor a one trick pony. If someone dislikes it for a reason besides the ones I listed, then I'm not going to argue.

The fun-ness or lack thereof in the minds of some people is derived from the fact that the adept cannot play as he is intended on higher difficulties and so the video I mentioned bears heavily on the topic because it is a description of what the core game mechanic was intended to be.

[WillieStyle]

I like the "1 shot, 1 kill" style of gameplay as much as the next guy, but there's nothing magic about 1 shotting enemies.

With the Widow, you 1 shot an enemy, then take ~2 to reload and line up the next shot. On my Soldier, with the Revenant, I don't 1 shot anything but I kill things faster than I did on my Infiltrator.

Also, on Insanity, unless you're using Tactical CLoak, you aren't going to 1 shot most enemies with barriers/shields without using your squadmates to strip them a little. And if you are using Cloak, you're waiting ~6 seconds between kills, which again is slower than using your squadmates.



I've just started playing an Adept on Insanity, but so far, what you lose in single-target dps compared to an Infiltrator, you more than make up for in AoE damage.

[WillieStyle]

Wintermist wrote...

My second playthrough was an Adept and I have to say I was a bit taken back at first. Having loved the Adept in Mass Effect 1 there was just a huge change to play him in Mass Effect 2. All the abilities was reduced to just a few and none made you feel like you was a powerful adept anymore.

Yeah, what they have done is balance all classes to be of equal worth, which I feel was rather sad. I liked the fact that an adept was so powerful, I mean, you would be with abilities like that.

After playing more I still enjoyed the new adept, especially how you can curve and trick with your abilities. But I still do like the Mass Effect 1 better, in the end.

This might be the most refreshingly honest post I've ever seen on a game forum.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 18 février 2010 - 01:52 .

[VirtualAlex]

It's hard to keep this thread in focus. It seems from this thread lots of people think adept is and is not fun. Seems like it really comes down to play style or opinion of fun.



It's similar to playing insanity. For some people insanity is way less fun than normal because you die so often and it's so hard. For other people the difficulty IS the fun.



I hate to sound like a everyone-is-right hippie. But we can't argue about fun of a class. However it's clearly demonstrated in videos that it isn't all about spamming warp and singularity unless you state it that way.

[skarlson]

Average Gatsby wrote...

skarlson wrote...

Honestly, this whole discussion is why I don't ever bother with anything but the default difficulty.

So I went back and read the OP again and noticed that he was talking about it not being fun on normal difficulty. I think I'm just going to shake my head and walk away from this whole thing. Its an absurd debate anyway. We can only argue if someone is right or wrong in their reason for something being fun or not. We can never prove that something actually is or isn't fun.

Lol...I was under the impression we were talking about insanity too. I am going to have to agree to walk away shaking my head as well.

[thisisme8]

I thought you were only allowed to post in the forums about Insanity difficulty?







That was a joke...

[Foxxyreaper]

what is fun for you but, can be boring for someone. thus it is an opinion and not an fact. Therefore you can argue forever. If it is or isn't fun



what i found reading is that some people are using same tactics again but as a player we are given many options to differ our strategies. Like squadmates, bonus powers etc. it's true that some strategies are most used since since it is easy to do. But try to vary your tactics.

if you hate repeating yourself over and over again. then try to find something new.to solve the situation. sometimes it takes time to like a class or to find a way of playing that suits you.



But in the end. it comes down to opinions. like what samara says ingame "If there are 3 humans in a room. there will be 6 opinions".



My opinion about the adept is that i like it because of the many different tactics you can use. although it sometimes tests my patience but i don't mind it.

[Graunt]

Average Gatsby wrote...

skarlson wrote...

I would also add on the presentation video for Adepts it says they are able to control opponents using only THEIR biotic powers which is demonstrated on screen by the biotic pulling off a pull/throw combo. The intent is for them to be able to do their own combos not combos with squadmates although that is certainly also a possibility and was another intent I am sure. Also, in mass effect 2 no one is better at controlling the battlefield than an adept; from the class reveal again. The balancing someone mentioned, where the game was balanced around normal not insanity, again speaks of the intent with adepts which is for the most part they are supposed to be able to control the battlefield. If the intent is the game is balanced around normal and if you want to play insanity then do so at your own risk, take it as it is, then fine but don't pretend that things are equally fine between all classes.

Very true. But, the thread is about fun-ness, not whether christina norman was right in making those claims about the adept on difficulties above veteran.

Back to my response OP, I said I saw 3 main issues that people had on it not being fun. I have videos, and will make more, showing that those particular reasons are not entirely accurate. Unfortunately, threads on something as Esoteric as how "Fun" something is tend to get derailed pretty easily into claims that something is bad. I'm out to show that the adept is not bad nor a one trick pony. If someone dislikes it for a reason besides the ones I listed, then I'm not going to argue.

A lot of your videos demonstrate exploding enemies with the Adept so that they hit more than one additional enemy, which is fun, but you're also doing choice clips that display this effect. So much of the game is single target, which is why the Adept gets boring fast.  As much flak that I gave Sinosleep about the Vanguard, even with how often the Vanguard risks dying, I've found them much more fun to play over the course of the entire game.  Adepts seem to go from "wow, this is really fun" to "god this is so boring" depending on the map.  The fun parts are fun, but the boring parts are super dull.

Modifié par Graunt, 18 février 2010 - 02:50 .

[FoFoZem]

Graunt wrote...


A lot of your videos demonstrate exploding enemies with the Adept so that they hit more than one additional enemy, which is fun, but you're also doing choice clips that display this effect. So much of the game is single target, which is why the Adept gets boring fast.  As much flak that I gave Sinosleep about the Vanguard, even with how often the Vanguard risks dying, I've found them much more fun to play over the course of the entire game.  Adepts seem to go from "wow, this is really fun" to "god this is so boring" depending on the map.  The fun parts are fun, but the boring parts are super dull.

Most of his videos are walkthroughs where he demonstrates his strategy in a chronological, unbroken manner. He stresses the importance of creating the multiple-enemy effect. The enemies aren't going to intermittently jump into your singularity and wait for your warp, this is why I, along with others, find the Adept to be such a tactical and rewarding class.

[Young Turk]

They say that Adepts aren't fun,

That they can't get the job done,

Because apparently somehow,

They just can't allow,

Themselves to use the squad or a gun.

[Graunt]

FoFoZem wrote...

Graunt wrote...


A lot of your videos demonstrate exploding enemies with the Adept so that they hit more than one additional enemy, which is fun, but you're also doing choice clips that display this effect. So much of the game is single target, which is why the Adept gets boring fast.  As much flak that I gave Sinosleep about the Vanguard, even with how often the Vanguard risks dying, I've found them much more fun to play over the course of the entire game.  Adepts seem to go from "wow, this is really fun" to "god this is so boring" depending on the map.  The fun parts are fun, but the boring parts are super dull.

Most of his videos are walkthroughs where he demonstrates his strategy in a chronological, unbroken manner. He stresses the importance of creating the multiple-enemy effect. The enemies aren't going to intermittently jump into your singularity and wait for your warp, this is why I, along with others, find the Adept to be such a tactical and rewarding class.

Sitting around waiting for them to clump isn't tactical, it's slow.  About the only "tactical" method for making this happen is to know enemy pathing on the maps, which the majority of players won't know their first few playthroughs.

[Young Turk]

Graunt wrote...

FoFoZem wrote...

Graunt wrote...


A lot of your videos demonstrate exploding enemies with the Adept so that they hit more than one additional enemy, which is fun, but you're also doing choice clips that display this effect. So much of the game is single target, which is why the Adept gets boring fast.  As much flak that I gave Sinosleep about the Vanguard, even with how often the Vanguard risks dying, I've found them much more fun to play over the course of the entire game.  Adepts seem to go from "wow, this is really fun" to "god this is so boring" depending on the map.  The fun parts are fun, but the boring parts are super dull.

Most of his videos are walkthroughs where he demonstrates his strategy in a chronological, unbroken manner. He stresses the importance of creating the multiple-enemy effect. The enemies aren't going to intermittently jump into your singularity and wait for your warp, this is why I, along with others, find the Adept to be such a tactical and rewarding class.

Sitting around waiting for them to clump isn't tactical, it's slow.  About the only "tactical" method for making this happen is to know enemy pathing on the maps, which the majority of players won't know their first few playthroughs.

I think you're right. He probably just memorized every particular route the AI take in unscripted battles.

Anyway, I'm going to lollerskate my way through insanity by spam warping

[Graunt]

Young Turk wrote...

Graunt wrote...

FoFoZem wrote...

Graunt wrote...


A lot of your videos demonstrate exploding enemies with the Adept so that they hit more than one additional enemy, which is fun, but you're also doing choice clips that display this effect. So much of the game is single target, which is why the Adept gets boring fast.  As much flak that I gave Sinosleep about the Vanguard, even with how often the Vanguard risks dying, I've found them much more fun to play over the course of the entire game.  Adepts seem to go from "wow, this is really fun" to "god this is so boring" depending on the map.  The fun parts are fun, but the boring parts are super dull.

Most of his videos are walkthroughs where he demonstrates his strategy in a chronological, unbroken manner. He stresses the importance of creating the multiple-enemy effect. The enemies aren't going to intermittently jump into your singularity and wait for your warp, this is why I, along with others, find the Adept to be such a tactical and rewarding class.

Sitting around waiting for them to clump isn't tactical, it's slow.  About the only "tactical" method for making this happen is to know enemy pathing on the maps, which the majority of players won't know their first few playthroughs.

I think you're right. He probably just memorized every particular route the AI take in unscripted battles.

Anyway, I'm going to lollerskate my way through insanity by spam warping

How about watch his videos before commenting.  He's specifically pointing out where enemies path and where choke points are.  Thanks for trying to be clever though.

[Young Turk]

Graunt wrote...

Young Turk wrote...

Graunt wrote...

FoFoZem wrote...

Graunt wrote...


A lot of your videos demonstrate exploding enemies with the Adept so that they hit more than one additional enemy, which is fun, but you're also doing choice clips that display this effect. So much of the game is single target, which is why the Adept gets boring fast.  As much flak that I gave Sinosleep about the Vanguard, even with how often the Vanguard risks dying, I've found them much more fun to play over the course of the entire game.  Adepts seem to go from "wow, this is really fun" to "god this is so boring" depending on the map.  The fun parts are fun, but the boring parts are super dull.

Most of his videos are walkthroughs where he demonstrates his strategy in a chronological, unbroken manner. He stresses the importance of creating the multiple-enemy effect. The enemies aren't going to intermittently jump into your singularity and wait for your warp, this is why I, along with others, find the Adept to be such a tactical and rewarding class.

Sitting around waiting for them to clump isn't tactical, it's slow.  About the only "tactical" method for making this happen is to know enemy pathing on the maps, which the majority of players won't know their first few playthroughs.

I think you're right. He probably just memorized every particular route the AI take in unscripted battles.

Anyway, I'm going to lollerskate my way through insanity by spam warping

How about watch his videos before commenting.  He's specifically pointing out where enemies path and where choke points are.  Thanks for trying to be clever though.

I've seen them all, and he's mostly pointing out how they bunch up in hallways and such, or maneuvering around cover. He also points out that this can be manipulated, and that Singularity creates a barrier which actually prevents movement, and CREATES chokepoints.

Anyway, you might want to go back and review the films.

In the meantime, I warp cast all kinds of pithy remarks your way

*hearts*

[EverteMax]

it really depends on your play style. If you like fast and aggressive ones...obviously the vanguard or soldier is going to appeal to you.

There's so many ways to kill enemies the fun way in ME2 with different class. With Vanguard, I zip around and shotgun their faces.

As Adept, I combo my powers to throw them helplessly around or trap the whole bunch of them into a meat pulp.

Every class can kill enemies with style and fun. You just got to look for it. If you aren't finding it, obviously you need another class. I just do not agree that any class is better than the other.

[Calibretto9]

I know it's just going to be one more voice in just one more thread concerning the Adept, but I'll throw my two cents in anyways.



I began an Insanity playthrough with an Adept shortly after beating the game on Veteran with a Soldier. It's tough to go back and play a Soldier after having the ability to sling powers around corners, so that definitely says something for biotics.



However, as has been said ad nauseum, the overuse of the Warp ability really dumbs the class down. When fighting on Insanity, I use Warp, Warp, Warp, Warp, and when the defenses are down, do a Pull/Singularity + Warp combo. That's not terribly interesting, even if curving powers around corners is cool and fun. It loses something when it's the same power over and over.



It also stinks that the abilities are more or less useless until the enemy is defenseless. People have overexaggerated and said once their barrier/shields/armor are gone, enemies are one shot kills. That's not true without the sniper, nor is it as useful as lifting them in the air and blowing them up in the midst of your enemies with a Pull + Warp. However, it is true that having to shoot and Warp an enemy before actually being able to use your collection of other abilities sucks. It's just not terribly exciting.



I also dislike how now, with the global cooldown of abilities, I can't do a quick Pull + Throw combo by myself. I either have to sit and wait for the abilities to cooldown, or use a squadmate's Pull or Throw. I applaud the attempt at forcing me to use my teammates more, however it stinks that I can't pull off a slick combo alone. After all that Warping and shooting to get them down to where I can use my biotics, I wish I could finish them off alone with impressive fashion.



Overall, there are some very fun aspects to the class. Curving powers around corners, having a ton of active abilities/spells, and blowing up biotics are all really cool. However, the rest of the class feels so restrained that it just doesn't shine. On higher difficulties it's more frustrating than rewarding.

[Gravbh]

I was primarily a vanguard with singularity bonus in ME1. I chose soldier on veteran for my first ME2 playthrough because I wanted to fully test out the new gunplay. My second playthrough for ME2 I bumped it up to insanity with an adept.



I heard plenty of horror stories but I really didn't mind it. You just have to make sure you bring the right team and use your squads abilities in concert with your own. It wasn't just warp spam either.

[Gravbh]

Young Turk wrote...

They say that Adepts aren't fun,
That they can't get the job done,
Because apparently somehow,
They just can't allow,
Themselves to use the squad or a gun.

Last line is right on. Just use your hand cannon to bring down somethings armor then blow it (and it's friends) up with a pull/singularity-warp combo.

I get the impression that a lot of people who try adept assume that they shouldn't use their guns.