825 réponses à ce sujet

[Naltair]

jlb524 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
So...are you going to answer the question posed?  I understand the issues you have with these threads, but would you react the same to seeing a bunch of threads complaining about a lack of Tali romance, using similar reasoning used by those that complain about lack of same sex romance?

What do you mean by lack of a Tali romance?

It's a hypothetical question.  If Bioware did not make Tali romanceable in ME2, we all know there would be hundreds of threads complaining about it.  Would you earnestly post in these threads in the same manner that you post in the threads where people complain about lack of same sex romances?

Sure I would, I would say the same thing I say not, it was not meant to be, maybe it will happen in ME3, and such and such.  They won't like to hear it and call me a troll but I think people just like to have love fest threads where they don't want dissent and just solidarity no real conversation just +1 posts of yeah you are correct.

Considering the state of the Tali mega-thread, my words are not too far off the mark.  I posted in there a few times but I found it... too stifling for any real conversation.  These threads offer conflict, conversation and allow me to see why people feel the ways they do.  If they get upset me I apologize I try not to attack people, just their arguments which are often not that well thought out.

[jlb524]

Naltair wrote...

There is at least a new one a day.  I actually came into this one because I saw posters that I recognized.  For me these are the more interesting threads.  Maybe that is odd to you, and I jump into story threads but those tend to be very subjective and just become opinion fests.  I find this an interesting discussion because it brings in real world situations, also they tend to be the least structured and usually lack solid arguments.

In the end I am not really sure what the point is unless you want to say, "You just like to cause trouble."

I really don't I just like converse on a topic I find interesting and seems to get a disproportionate amount of topics, the LIs in general.

I doesn't seem like there's a 'new one a day'.  I think you are exaggerating.  Besides, there's a ton of story and LI threads that aren't same-sex romance related.  I'm just not sure why you focus on these threads and not the others.  Unless I'm mistaken.

[Naltair]

Nautica773 wrote...

Naltair wrote...
I am not against same sex relationships, just the idea that blank should be so change them to be. Because that is what I want. Not so much because I think it would be better for the story overall but because it suits my playstyle.

To be fair, though, just because they romance one gender in one game doesn't mean they can't romance another in a sequel. It would be like saying that Tali shouldn't be a romance in 2 because she wasn't a romance in 1. If the character specifically said they weren't interested in that, I can understand (like Jack saying she's not a member of the 'girl's club'). Otherwise, you can let the femsheps dream about their Tali romance no matter how slim it may actually be.

I never discount ME3, I still think the chance is slim but stranger things have happened, but that would be the first LI to have their gender preferences changed after the fact.  But if they feel that is a valid change and describe it well in game I would be fine with it.  I wouldn't tell them they are wrong, just not what I would have done with her other characters.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Naltair,

The real issue here is why people like you care at all. Someone says they wish X was romanceable by Y gender, and you get the same 2-3 people jumping in and complaining about "changing the story" or "making unrealistic changes by altering a character's sexuality". It's stupid.



It's especially stupid when you consider that there were Tali romance threads all over the place after ME1, and there are still Tali romance threads all over the place now.



Why aren't you in those current Tali threads arguing that "If the writers meant Tali to be romanceable in ME3, then she will be! Stop saying you want to romance in her ME3 and saying you want to potentially change the story!!"



There are a lot of people saying they want things that might change an aspect of BioWare's story, yet you're only present and complaining in threads like these where someone says they want one of the females to be romanceable by a woman. It's mighty suspicious.

[Naltair]

jlb524 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

There is at least a new one a day.  I actually came into this one because I saw posters that I recognized.  For me these are the more interesting threads.  Maybe that is odd to you, and I jump into story threads but those tend to be very subjective and just become opinion fests.  I find this an interesting discussion because it brings in real world situations, also they tend to be the least structured and usually lack solid arguments.

In the end I am not really sure what the point is unless you want to say, "You just like to cause trouble."

I really don't I just like converse on a topic I find interesting and seems to get a disproportionate amount of topics, the LIs in general.

I doesn't seem like there's a 'new one a day'.  I think you are exaggerating.  Besides, there's a ton of story and LI threads that aren't same-sex romance related.  I'm just not sure why you focus on these threads and not the others.  Unless I'm mistaken.

I think it's how fast they move, I like fast moving threads, these tend to move fast, it suits me when I am sitting inf ront of the screen.  And yes there is a new one a day, this is probably the fourth one I have seen in two days.  They usually easy to spot, because they usually have someone playing a female Shepard complaining about lack of "romance" choices.

It could be hyperbole for sure but these kinds of threads crop up constantly.  Perhaps more so than you think.

[jlb524]

Naltair wrote...

I think it's how fast they move, I like fast moving threads, these tend to move fast, it suits me when I am sitting inf ront of the screen.  And yes there is a new one a day, this is probably the fourth one I have seen in two days.  They usually easy to spot, because they usually have someone playing a female Shepard complaining about lack of "romance" choices.

It could be hyperbole for sure but these kinds of threads crop up constantly.  Perhaps more so than you think.

Well, if people keep complaining about lack of quality FemShep romance options, then there must be a problem somewhere with the situation.   Or, our their desires unimportant?

Modifié par jlb524, 06 février 2010 - 06:22 .

[Naltair]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
There are a lot of people saying they want things that might change an aspect of BioWare's story, yet you're only present and complaining in threads like these where someone says they want one of the females to be romanceable by a woman. It's mighty suspicious.

Suspicious of what?  What is that I am being suspect for?  Why is that I must have some secret agenda, I don;t care about your predilections.  I don't personally care who you want to romance, and I offer suggestions that don;t work because people have a specific target in mind that would be perfect.  On top of that why do you care so much if I do like to play devil's advocate?  Are you personally invested in this?  neither of us have any real pull of what BioWare will actually do, all we can do is voice our opinions as we see fit.

On top of that I don't care what way you want your character to swing I just state the facts as I see them as best as I can if I am wrong I admit I am wrong.  I am not bullheaded in that regard.  The only real ulterior motive I may have is that I think the majority of these posters don't really care about "real" female + female rights and are just men who don't want to romance a man as a woman.  There is nothing wrong with that but then I feel that some may use the guise of equality when really it has nothing to do with it.

But that is my own personal stance, but that is a separate issue.

I post in other threads these just tend to move the fastest.

[thisisme8]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Yeah, she gets screwed alright...
Wait, you weren't talking about that were you...

Exactly what went through my mind.  Read the title and thought, obviously.

[Naltair]

jlb524 wrote...
Well, if people keep complaining about lack of quality FemShep romance options, then there must be a problem somewhere with the situation.   Or, our their desires unimportant?

Not at all, I am just surprised really, I thought the choices looked really good.  But I guess I was wrong.  I actually thought they were more dynamic than the male ones.  But that was just based on what I have seen the characters in game.

[Nautica773]

jlb524 wrote...
Well, if people keep complaining about lack of quality FemShep romance options, then there must be a problem somewhere with the situation.   Or, our their desires unimportant?

I think this is a 'grass is greener' complaint though. The femshep romances are about as enticing as the maleshep romances. The only real complaint seems to be a lack of female-female romance, though you could stay true to Liara from the first game. If anyone wants to complain, shouldn't it be the seemingly non-existent male-male shep romance fans?

[Naltair]

Nautica773 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Well, if people keep complaining about lack of quality FemShep romance options, then there must be a problem somewhere with the situation.   Or, our their desires unimportant?

I think this is a 'grass is greener' complaint though. The femshep romances are about as enticing as the maleshep romances. The only real complaint seems to be a lack of female-female romance, though you could stay true to Liara from the first game. If anyone wants to complain, shouldn't it be the seemingly non-existent male-male shep romance fans?

I bring that up every time but no one ever listens to me because I hate the gays.  Obviously.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

If you don't care then why do you so insistently argue with their personal tastes?



If someone says "I wish Tali was romanceable by females," then why do you care so much as to argue why you think she shouldn't be? If you really didn't care then you'd not be here.



And I don't buy that you're "playing devil's advocate". You do this far too often to make me think it's just a casual discussion for sport to you.

[wako58]

jlb524 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
So...are you going to answer the question posed?  I understand the issues you have with these threads, but would you react the same to seeing a bunch of threads complaining about a lack of Tali romance, using similar reasoning used by those that complain about lack of same sex romance?

What do you mean by lack of a Tali romance?

It's a hypothetical question.  If Bioware did not make Tali romanceable in ME2, we all know there would be hundreds of threads complaining about it.  Would you earnestly post in these threads in the same manner that you post in the threads where people complain about lack of same sex romances?

I'm not a talimancer, nor am I a thanemancer, liaramancer, etc....Like a lot of people I personally don't care for how some of the romances played out in ME2 especially if you had a LI in the original ME.  What I don't get is this feeling of entitlement that if I ask for something I should get it.  I am sensitive to alternate lifestyles because I've had a gay relative through marriage in my immediate family for the past 20 or so years who is a good and decent person.  He has also had a strong and lasting relationship with his partner of over 10 years. I also happen to be black and I don't particularly care for how Jacob, a character I had high hopes for,  ended up being portrayed by the writers in ME2.  That displeasure, however, gives me 2 seconds of internet fame to complain about my lot in life and move on.

I'm happy I had a chance to interact with diverse characters, relevant to me, in the interactive world of video games that is typically dominated by single white male characters.  Am I completely satisfied by the experience, hell no, but change happens...even if it doesn't happen as fast as I personally want it too.  I have a lot of life experience behind me to understand that.

end of rant...... 

Modifié par wako58, 06 février 2010 - 06:32 .

[Naltair]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
And I don't buy that you're "playing devil's advocate". You do this far too often to make me think it's just a casual discussion for sport to you.

Because I enjoy the conversation like I have said 5-6 times now.

I don't care as in, I really don;t care what you do with your character, I will still voice my concerns for character and story integrity.  I really am not bothered if you think I am here clutching my hands like some kind of TV villain, I really don't know what you are insinuating?  Must I agree with your stance?  I don't agree with changing a character after the fact, this goes for any major change ad hoc retcon for little or no reason.

it just happens that the only change people usually want to make is their sexual orientation, trust me if someone made a thread that said TIM should be a black male next game with dreads I would be like WTF, and then argue just as tightly and logically.  it just so happens these threads move the fastest which means I post more often and are far more common.

[Nautica773]

Naltair wrote...

Nautica773 wrote...
I think this is a 'grass is greener' complaint though. The femshep romances are about as enticing as the maleshep romances. The only real complaint seems to be a lack of female-female romance, though you could stay true to Liara from the first game. If anyone wants to complain, shouldn't it be the seemingly non-existent male-male shep romance fans?

I bring that up every time but no one ever listens to me because I hate the gays.  Obviously.

Stop hating the gays? 
It is a valid point, and you have mentioned it before. It seems the main complaint is not that the romances are bad, just not the ones that people want. Hell, I wanted a Samara romance but it was not meant to.
Anywho, it's unfortunate not everyone can be happy, but there's always the sequel to look forward to. I don't mind someone voicing a complaint that there was a lack of lesbian romance option in 2 in the hopes that it may be addressed in the sequel. 

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Naltair wrote...

Because I enjoy the conversation like I have said 5-6 times now.

I don't care as in, I really don;t care what you do with your character, I will still voice my concerns for character and story integrity.  I really am not bothered if you think I am here clutching my hands like some kind of TV villain, I really don't know what you are insinuating?  Must I agree with your stance?  I don't agree with changing a character after the fact, this goes for any major change ad hoc retcon for little or no reason.

it just happens that the only change people usually want to make is their sexual orientation, trust me if someone made a thread that said TIM should be a black male next game with dreads I would be like WTF, and then argue just as tightly and logically.  it just so happens these threads move the fastest which means I post more often and are far more common.

You didn't complain about them changing Tali from non-romanceable in ME1 to romanceable in ME2...
And Tali really shows NO interest at all in Shepard during ME1, especially if you're renegade and don't give her the data. The devs changed Tali, plain and simple. But I've not seen you complain. And the Tali threads move very fast, and there's a new Tali thread every GD hour if not every day.

[Naltair]

I think male + male relationships are severely lacking in Mass Effect and this is why I call the asari a fan service race. Because it was an easy dodge for the dev team to include the more "accepted" female + female relationship which appeals to men playing women and still say no we don't have same sex relationships in Mass Effect.

[jlb524]

Nautica773 wrote...

I think this is a 'grass is greener' complaint though. The femshep romances are about as enticing as the maleshep romances. The only real complaint seems to be a lack of female-female romance, though you could stay true to Liara from the first game. If anyone wants to complain, shouldn't it be the seemingly non-existent male-male shep romance fans?

Well, yes... people are disappointed with the female options b/c they wanted another female to romance and there are none.  From all of these threads, it appears it is quite the popular option.  And, everyone complains about these threads because the OPs are all 'straight guys b*tching b/c they have to romance a dude when they play female'.  Well, hypothetically speaking, what if Bioware made all the MaleShep LI's male?  Straight guys would then again be b*tching b/c they have to romance a dude when they play as a dude.  Is there a difference?  Why would the latter (straight guys b*tching they can only romance dudes with their dude) be justified while the former (straight guys b*tching they can only romance dudes with their female) not be?  It just seems to me people try to belittle those asking for f/f romances by calling them 'horny straight dudes looking for lesbo action' in an attempt to make their opinions look weaker.

As for m/m romances, they need to have one in ME3, with out a doubt.  BW's utter avoidance of m/m romance in this IP is, for lack of a better phrase, a load of horse crap.   This is an even bigger problem than them not including f/f romances.  Those threads do pop up on occasion but ususally get locked due to massive trolling and the inevitable flame war that breaks out.  People are way more immature when it comes to discussing m/m as opposed to f/f, unfortunately.

[jlb524]

Nautica773 wrote...

I don't mind someone voicing a complaint that there was a lack of lesbian romance option in 2 in the hopes that it may be addressed in the sequel. 

This is all we are asking for...the ability to voice our complaint in hopes of changing things in ME3, without people trolling the threads or trying to belittle our disappointment.

[Naltair]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
You didn't complain about them changing Tali from non-romanceable in ME1 to romanceable in ME2...
And Tali really shows NO interest at all in Shepard during ME1, especially if you're renegade and don't give her the data. The devs changed Tali, plain and simple. But I've not seen you complain. And the Tali threads move very fast, and there's a new Tali thread every GD hour if not every day.

Why would I complain, I fully admit things can change in sequels and say as much, seriously get off my nuts here, stick to the discussion if you want to continue this PM me,, but really this is going nowhere.  I can send you my posting list if you like and run all new posts I make through you, so you can keep tabs on me?  What is your deal?

I always gave her the data, I play Paragon and I always liked her character, they made her and LI it worked if not I would not be complaining on the intarwebs because it isn't a big deal to me personally.  The only reason I am voicing my opinion is to try and keep the conversation honest and not just a pity party, but maybe find valid solutions which I try and offer.

The fact is, they offered something in ME1 they didn't offer in ME2, and the glaring lack of female + female LI is causing an outcry.  I admit that, it's the blank is the obvious choice I don;t agree with because none of them are "obvious" choices or they would have been.

Some people don;t like to hear maybe they made the decision to for go them on purpose.  Instead it must be a glitch, a bug, a problem, or a conspiracy.  That is what keeps me posting.

[Naltair]

jlb524 wrote...

Nautica773 wrote...

I think this is a 'grass is greener' complaint though. The femshep romances are about as enticing as the maleshep romances. The only real complaint seems to be a lack of female-female romance, though you could stay true to Liara from the first game. If anyone wants to complain, shouldn't it be the seemingly non-existent male-male shep romance fans?

Well, yes... people are disappointed with the female options b/c they wanted another female to romance and there are none.  From all of these threads, it appears it is quite the popular option.  And, everyone complains about these threads because the OPs are all 'straight guys b*tching b/c they have to romance a dude when they play female'.  Well, hypothetically speaking, what if Bioware made all the MaleShep LI's male?  Straight guys would then again be b*tching b/c they have to romance a dude when they play as a dude.  Is there a difference?  Why would the latter (straight guys b*tching they can only romance dudes with their dude) be justified while the former (straight guys b*tching they can only romance dudes with their female) not be?  It just seems to me people try to belittle those asking for f/f romances by calling them 'horny straight dudes looking for lesbo action' in an attempt to make their opinions look weaker.

To be honest the men playing men who want women have a more valid argument than the men playing women who want other women.  One is a more common and culturally accepted lifestyle choice and the other is often for the sexiness and because I am a dude I am not gay but I like to see two chicks doing it.  Not trying to belittle them but lets be serious here.  I am not trying to say one is more valid than the other, but just come out and say it instead of hiding behind "promoting" female  + female relationships when you really are not.

I use you in the general sense.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Naltair wrote...

Why would I complain, I fully admit things can change in sequels and say as much

See, now I have no idea what your stance even is. You say you don't like them changing parts of the story or characters to suit people's taste, but you have no problem with them making Tali romanceable specifically to sate the fan outcry and Tali obsessions.

[Naltair]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Why would I complain, I fully admit things can change in sequels and say as much

See, now I have no idea what your stance even is. You say you don't like them changing parts of the story or characters to suit people's taste, but you have no problem with them making Tali romanceable specifically to sate the fan outcry and Tali obsessions.

It's not an implausible change nor one they didn't account for before it happened, they just thought she was too alien to be one, but when people were positive to her and Garrus they did it.  I never got the feeling either was repulsed by Shepard in fact they both seem to have some kind of awe of him/her.  It's a no brainer to make something happened you were thinking about doing anyway.

She was considered at one time before ME1 launched, is what I mean.

if you don't know my stance you obviously don't read my posts.

[grayfox4000]

Because Tali doesn't swing that way. Not everybody swings that way. Go get a Asari, they don't care, too bad it kills you. LOL Unless you still have Liara in ME2 tho I don't know what thats like. I haven't done her LI in ME2.

Modifié par grayfox4000, 06 février 2010 - 06:53 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

jlb524 wrote...

This is all we are asking for...the ability to voice our complaint in hopes of changing things in ME3, without people trolling the threads or trying to belittle our disappointment.

I'm not saying I agree with whatever trolling or whatever has been going on to make this thread 10 pages long, but maybe so many people belittle the disappointment in threads like these because so many people in -this- group like to belittle other people's preferences to make their point. Why not just make it a pure, 'F/F relationships for ME3' thread instead of 'Garrus/Thane/Jacob suck and are stupid' thread? By making it the message 'all FemShep players are screwed because their options suck' you're asking for hate from FemShep players that like their options, ManShep players that like their options, and ManShep players that wish they had the FemShep options. You shouldn't have to put one group down to make your own seem better.