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[TheShady]

Naltair wrote...

TheShady wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Let me put it this way if I go to a baker and tell him every cake flavor he has is bad and he asks me what cake flavor I would like and I say an apple pie, does that make sense?

Yes, it does. He might make you an apple pie. He's a baker after all.

Cute, yeah I get that I just mean if you complain about one aspect but you never really cared about that aspect to begin with, why even mention it?  To strengthen a weak case?  What does the lack of compelling male LIs have to do with the fact that the OP only wanted to pursue a female + female relationship?  

They (the baker/BW) might give us better options in DAO2 or ME3. The more voice one has, the bigger his influence.

We already bought the game. The next way to criticise the game is either not buying DLC (somewhat likely), not buying other Bioware products (very unlikely), not buying Mass Effect 3 (pretty darned impossible) or voicing our opinions on the forums. So, if I want ME3 to contain dragons, I might as well say so, someone might listen and think it's a good idea. If I want same-sex romances I might say so too, someone might listen. The more people agree with me, the more they listen.
It could very well be that the baker does not make me an apple pie. But if a lot of people stand behind me voicing their support of my cause, he might add apple pies into his sortiment.

It's a series. We have a right to demand certain things of it. When you create something, you create yourself responsibility. One of those responsibilities in a series is continuity. They broke continuity in the case of romances.

Naltair wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I'm female who wanted better male LI's ... I admit that my biggest problem was Joker was not available as an option. My second problem is romancing an alien (whether dinosaur or lizard) does not appeal to me, and the Jacob lines were way too creepy they turned me off.

I actually think they missed a chance with Joker, since they gave Kelly such a role.  Maybe he might finally get his due in ME3?

Wouldn't it... break? 

Modifié par TheShady, 06 février 2010 - 07:24 .

[Naltair]

I think you took that point too literally I am not against whatever you think I may be against, I am just saying the OP was unethical perhaps unintentionally in how they framed their argument. The title of the thread implies that somehow female Shepard got shafted maybe she did but it isn't for the reasons the OP listed.

Because if that is their reasoning male Shepard has been more shafted than female Shepard in the regard of same sex romances since day one and no one seems to care.

I use the term shaft figuratively.

Modifié par Naltair, 06 février 2010 - 07:25 .

[TheShady]

Well, doesn't the OP also state somewhat of a reason why he dislikes the choices and says that he would have preferred the LIs for males even though his Shepard is not male? Sure, there's some "homosexual agenda" in there but, even though the post is not that well elaborated, there's general criticism of the romance options in there too.

Modifié par TheShady, 06 février 2010 - 07:27 .

[Naltair]

TheShady wrote...

Well, doesn't the OP also state somewhat of a reason why he dislikes the choices and says that he would have preferred the LIs for males even though his Shepard is not male? Sure, there's some "homosexual agenda" in there but, even though the post is not that well elaborated, there's general criticism of the romance options in there too.

It just does not come off as genuine, if they really were trying to improve the LIs they would have listed ideas for more male and female choices but they didn't.  They wanted a female + female choice.  Which adds another thought why is it that females must have a female + female choice, do people think that women are more prone to homosexuality than men or is this just a cultural stereotype?  Or is it to appease men that play women characters?

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...
But now you imply that tali or blank female character is a better quality LI than the alternatives?  Alternatives they never cared about in the first place?  I mean as I have said before I don't care where you want to go, but don't make it a quality issue when it's really a this is what I wanted to begin with but I didn't get it so I am going to blame the choices when I never cared about the choices to begin with.

But why is this a problem? There is no dividing line, the characters are all competing over your interest. Should people stop being drawn to a character because the designers subtly hint they wanted you to be interested in a less-interesting character? 

I personally wouldn't call any of the female Love-Interests boring in their own right, but I don't see what's wrong with someone having that opinion. 

I look at both, because it's easy for someone to make it seem like they are furthering the cause of homosexual equality when they just want to have a female +  female relationship because it's easier for them, meaning males playing females.  I think that disgusts me personally not saying all are like that but when someone starts a post with I hate all the male choices, but oh I wanted a female choice anyway, it makes me wonder.

So you'd be fine with a "gay" relationship if its arbitrary or helps further a "gay agenda", but not with a relationship fueled by a player interested in a character they find interesting. Ok. 

I would also wonder if someone said I hate all the females as a Male Shepard, I wanted Thane.  Then just come out and say that and not misconstrue that the choices are bad, instead of well no they may be fine I just prefer these choices.  because the males being bad choices does not equate to females obviously being the superior choice.  It just means you were not into men most likely anyway.

For that person the choices were bad, at least compared to Thane. And stop using hypotheticals, its not male vs female its jack/miranda/tali compared with thane/jacob/garrus. You'd look at interest on an individual basis, if one side has superior characters (which seems to be the problem here), it may not necessarily have anything to do with whether they prefer males or females in real life, they just want to be with the most interesting characters. Which seems to be something you have a problem with. I have no idea what you were trying to say with this. 

[Nautica773]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
So you'd be fine with a "gay" relationship if its arbitrary or helps further a "gay agenda", but not with a relationship fueled by a player interested in a character they find interesting. Ok. 

I imagine he would argue against DLC that made Kaiden a gay romance option in ME1. I don't think you're understanding his position.

[Kolaris8472]

Nautica773 wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
So you'd be fine with a "gay" relationship if its arbitrary or helps further a "gay agenda", but not with a relationship fueled by a player interested in a character they find interesting. Ok. 

I imagine he would argue against DLC that made Kaiden a gay romance option in ME1. I don't think you're understanding his position.

Apparently not. Could you clarify it? 

[Naltair]

I thought I was quite clear but I can try again:



First off superior is subjective and I won't argue what is superior to what but I will argue that saying all the female choices are bad because they don't have a female + female choice is misleading. It has no correlation with the actual thread title, which seems to imply the choices are just bad, terrible and in some way far worse than the male choices. But they are not, they may be different they may even have different content and all that but no side is better than the other unless you want to think that way.



But that is besides the point that the crux of the argument is NOT the choices are bad, just the choices that the OP wanted were not there. It's not about a dividing line it's about a misrepresentation of the argument to begin with. What makes Tali, Jack, or Miranda superior in any way but only that they are female the gender that the OP prefers? That is my problem with the OP argument it's nonsensical.



They are trying to generalize and say the choices are bad but they don't care about the given choices at all, I keep trying to state this and you seem to miss this point. I have no qualms with they want or like, and I say go for it, but trying to critic an aspect of the game by using "examples" that you never cared about is misleading.



It just frames the whole argument in a weak light and makes me suspect of why it even matters. Why even frame the post as if female Shepard is being done a disservice with her choices when the same exact thing happens to male Shepard and he has no actual recourse, none. The post tries to make this a unique problem like the choices are somehow worse when it reality the choices for female Shepard in regards to the real issue same sex romances are far better than anything male Shepard has access to.

[Naltair]

Nautica773 wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
So you'd be fine with a "gay" relationship if its arbitrary or helps further a "gay agenda", but not with a relationship fueled by a player interested in a character they find interesting. Ok. 

I imagine he would argue against DLC that made Kaiden a gay romance option in ME1. I don't think you're understanding his position.

it isn't something I would support because it comes off as trite and does not really add anything valuable to the story or even really new content unless they want to do this for ME3.  Now a DLC that adds one or two more, I prefer two, characters to the team that just happened to be bi with new art assets, missions and content would be awesome.  Then everyone wins.

[Nautica773]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Nautica773 wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
So you'd be fine with a "gay" relationship if its arbitrary or helps further a "gay agenda", but not with a relationship fueled by a player interested in a character they find interesting. Ok. 

I imagine he would argue against DLC that made Kaiden a gay romance option in ME1. I don't think you're understanding his position.

Apparently not. Could you clarify it? 

I believe he'd support a gay character being introduced into a sequel, or for a character from a previous game to be revealed that they have same sex attraction. He, however, is against adding little content to an established character to fulfill the desires of some players that felt they did not receive what they hope for in a completed product.

[andysdead]

i'm playing a renegade femshep right now and i spent a good bit of time coming on hard to every male character in the game, but in the end i think i'm going to end up with Kelly.



she's just really hot. lol

[Ari Kagura]

I suppose there could be a new achievement in a patch/DLC/ME3/etc for same- or bi-sexual relationships: "Don't Ask. Don't Tell."

[Naltair]

Nautica773 wrote...

I believe he'd support a gay character being introduced into a sequel, or for a character from a previous game to be revealed that they have same sex attraction. He, however, is against adding little content to an established character to fulfill the desires of some players that felt they did not receive what they hope for in a completed product.

Thank you sometimes I feel like I am talking to myself, this is correct.  Personally I would be all for a new bisexual male character before they release ANOTHER bisexual female one.

I want to add I am not bi or gay, I just think it's the right thing to do.  It would also add another interesting female option that isn't just another bi woman.

Modifié par Naltair, 06 février 2010 - 08:05 .

[ERJAK2]

Naltair wrote...

Nautica773 wrote...

I believe he'd support a gay character being introduced into a sequel, or for a character from a previous game to be revealed that they have same sex attraction. He, however, is against adding little content to an established character to fulfill the desires of some players that felt they did not receive what they hope for in a completed product.

Thank you sometimes I feel like I am talking to myself, this is correct.  Personally I would be all for a new bisexual male character before they release ANOTHER bisexual female one.

I want to add I am not bi or gay, I just think it's the right thing to do.  It would also add another interesting female option that isn't just another bi woman.

There is no bisexual(romanceable) female character in ME2. Other than that, I agree.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

I thought I was quite clear but I can try again:

First off superior is subjective and I won't argue what is superior to what but I will argue that saying all the female choices are bad because they don't have a female + female choice is misleading. It has no correlation with the actual thread title, which seems to imply the choices are just bad, terrible and in some way far worse than the male choices. But they are not, they may be different they may even have different content and all that but no side is better than the other unless you want to think that way.

But that is besides the point that the crux of the argument is NOT the choices are bad, just the choices that the OP wanted were not there. It's not about a dividing line it's about a misrepresentation of the argument to begin with. What makes Tali, Jack, or Miranda superior in any way but only that they are female the gender that the OP prefers? That is my problem with the OP argument it's nonsensical.

They are trying to generalize and say the choices are bad but they don't care about the given choices at all, I keep trying to state this and you seem to miss this point. I have no qualms with they want or like, and I say go for it, but trying to critic an aspect of the game by using "examples" that you never cared about is misleading.

It just frames the whole argument in a weak light and makes me suspect of why it even matters. Why even frame the post as if female Shepard is being done a disservice with her choices when the same exact thing happens to male Shepard and he has no actual recourse, none. The post tries to make this a unique problem like the choices are somehow worse when it reality the choices for female Shepard in regards to the real issue same sex romances are far better than anything male Shepard has access to.

Ok, thanks. I agree with all that, but the OP seemed like an opinion piece to me from the start. 

Though this

What makes Tali, Jack, or Miranda superior in any way but only that they are female the gender that the OP prefers?

is also missing the point. There is a lot different between them as characters beyond their gender, any number of which could contribute to them being more liked than just being female. 

[Nautica773]

Naltair wrote...
Thank you sometimes I feel like I am talking to myself, this is correct.  Personally I would be all for a new bisexual male character before they release ANOTHER bisexual female one.

I want to add I am not bi or gay, I just think it's the right thing to do.  It would also add another interesting female option that isn't just another bi woman.

Diversity is the spice of life, as they say. 

[Naltair]

Most people consider Kelly to be an option. I will consider her too.

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...
What makes Tali, Jack, or Miranda superior in any way but only that they are female the gender that the OP prefers?

is also missing the point. There is a lot different between them as characters beyond their gender, any number of which could contribute to them being more liked than just being female. 

I can agree to that, still subjective but I can agree.

[Few87]

The title of this thread is true, it seems a little odd that bioware give nobody interesting. Except the amazing Tali of course, and we cant have her

[ERJAK2]

Naltair wrote...

Most people consider Kelly to be an option. I will consider her too.

The only people who consider Kelly an option are the people who are vehemently against a female/female romance option and think they can use that to shut everyone else up. General consensus among people who would like the option is that she REALLY doesn't count.

My general rule of thumb is that if it doesn't get me the Paramour achievement, it doesn't count.

[brain_damage]

ERJAK2 wrote...

There is no bisexual(romanceable) female character in ME2. Other than that, I agree.

Oh wow. Kelly is totally straight, you guys!

[tmp7704]

ERJAK2 wrote...

My general rule of thumb is that if it doesn't get me the Paramour achievement, it doesn't count.

Paramour achievement is for having relationship with team mate. So obviously there isn't going to be one for relationship with someone who wasn't recruited by you, but i wouldn't treat it as sign of some particular importance for the relationship itself. If say, Wrex was romantic interest in ME2 i bet he wouldn't give Paramour achievement also, but people would still count him as valid option.

"Shepard."
"Wrex."

[ERJAK2]

brain_damage wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

There is no bisexual(romanceable) female character in ME2. Other than that, I agree.

Oh wow. Kelly is totally straight, you guys!

If you had read the post immediately preceding yours you'd know what my logic was. In truth there are dozens of bi women in ME2, none of them are real romances though.

[Naltair]

Few87 wrote...

The title of this thread is true, it seems a little odd that bioware give nobody interesting. Except the amazing Tali of course, and we cant have her

Again how is Tali more amazing than the current choices unless you just wanted Tali all along?  That is like me saying Garrus is amazing and I can't have him therefore all male choices are bad.  Does not make sense.

[Naltair]

ERJAK2 wrote...

brain_damage wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

There is no bisexual(romanceable) female character in ME2. Other than that, I agree.

Oh wow. Kelly is totally straight, you guys!

If you had read the post immediately preceding yours you'd know what my logic was. In truth there are dozens of bi women in ME2, none of them are real romances though.

I agree with your logic if you want an achievement then yes she does not count.