825 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Jlb, you are missing the point. I don't want F/F romances to be made FOR straight guys. I want them to be made FOR lesbian and bisexual women. I don't have a problem with homosexual relationships at all and I'm hurt that you would suggest that. I do have a problem with straight guys wanting F/F relationships just so they can drool. Considering many of these same guys wouldn't want M/M in the game, if you don't think they can be sexist you haven't looked around enough. Many of them are demeaning and objectify women as sex objects. On this forum alone I've seen much "omg F/F is cool" coinciding with "m/m is gross don't put it in the game."

I've seen them too (they are not worth my time), but why generalize and say that all guys that want it are just 'knuckle-draggers'? 

When I say knuckle dragging, I am referring to the sexist males who want F/F just so they can see and drool over lesbian sex ("action"). Many of them as I said are hypocrites and for some reason like F/F but don't want to see M/M in the game.

How can you tell that they are currently being made for straight guys and not lesbians or bi women?  What detail of the romance points to this? 

It's hypothetical. But if I see mostly/only straight guys wanting x female character to be bisexual, and Bioware decides to make them bisexual over say Jack who has more support among lesbian and bisexual women, I would be disappointed (I would be more disappointed that is - I don't like the idea of changing orientations for characters that already have a romance, but we went over that already)

That is where I am getting at. I am prioritizing the wishes of actual lesbian and bisexual women over straight guys who I think can just deal with not having lesbian sex to go "teehee" about. Or in other words the wishes of women who want meaningful same sex relationships over some dude who just wants to see two women have sex. I hope you agree with me.

Modifié par Collider, 19 mai 2010 - 07:32 .

[CalJones]

I'm a straight, but somewhat blokeish woman who enjoys playing male characters and also enjoys having the option to romance men with those male characters. I appreciated Sky in JE and Zevran in DA:O for that reason.

I'm also happy to play straight male characters and straight or gay female characters (generally I alternate playing males and females) but the lack of a gay male relationship for Shep does seem to be a bit of an oversight. For all that asari are monogendered, they're most definitely female, so it does seem a little unfair.

On the subject of romantic options for a female Shep, I'm pretty happy with the selection. Kaiden was pretty decent - a character mercifully free of dead loved ones (see: Anomen, Carth, Sky) and other hang-ups, bar the odd migraine. I didn't squee over him but I liked him well enough.

So far I've only played through ME2 four times - my male Sheps have dated Miranda and Jack (Tali is next) and one of my females stayed true to Kaiden while the other dated Garrus. Now Garrus, despite his alien anatomy, is such an awesome character (he was my favourite companion from ME1) that I was thrilled to have the chance to romance him. Yes I did squee, just a bit.

I will try Thane next - the idea of a mortally ill assassin is definitely tragic-romantic, and whilst his snake-skin freaks me out a bit, I can get over that.

The only one I'm ambivalent about is Jacob. He may have a nice booty (seemingly a requirement for Cerberus agents) and six pack but there's something unappealing about him. I think the main problem is that he comes off a little unfriendly when you first get him on the Normandy. The whole "I'm not big on forcing these talks" doesn't make me want to try, and as others have said, Femshep's attempts to flirt are just cringeworthy.

Still, I think the choice of three romances for either gender is pretty good, and I don't see how male or female Sheps get screwed. I do wish there was an after-sex talk, as in the first game. Given that three of the romances are with aliens it would be nice to know if you managed to overcome our physical differences, at least.

[Barquiel]

What's the difference between a F/F romance for  lesbian and bisexual women and a F/F romance for straight guys?

Modifié par Barquiel, 19 mai 2010 - 07:36 .

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

That is where I am getting at. I am prioritizing the wishes of actual lesbian and bisexual women over straight guys who I think can just deal with not having lesbian sex to go "teehee" about. Or in other words the wishes of women who want meaningful same sex relationships over some dude who just wants to see two women have sex. I hope you agree with me.

Again, it seems like you are demonizing all straight guys who want f/f romances.   You assume all guys who do these romances don't appreciate them on a level beyond the 'teehee!  lesbianz!' factor.  How do you know this?  Just b/c a few moronic posters have said as much, doesn't mean all male fans of f/f think that way. 

I think real lesbians or bi woman would have been fine with any of the options (Miranda/Jack/Tali), they are just happy to get an option period.  I'm not sure how Jack is more of the 'lesbian type' than say, Miranda, either.    I don't care if some guys giggle over it and go 'oh, coolz!  lesbians!!'.  BW's f/f romances have always been handled maturely.  The only one that maybe should be criticized is Kelly's, as it seems to be thrown in for that very reason you take offense to.   It also seems that most people that enjoy f/f romances aren't thrilled or impressed with Kelly's.

[Collider]

Again, it seems like you are demonizing all straight guys who want f/f romances. You assume all guys who do these romances don't appreciate them on a level beyond the 'teehee! lesbianz!' factor. How do you know this? Just b/c a few moronic posters have said as much, doesn't mean all male fans of f/f think that way.

When they already have the option to play as their own gender and romance a character of a gender they are attracted to, I find many of their requests to be rather insignificant and annoying. They shouldn't holding out their palms for more like this when they already have much more than homosexual and bisexual people.

Meanwhile, lesbian and bisexual women have much less options in terms of F/F. They either have 1 (or none) option to play as their own gender (female) and romance the character of the gender they are attracted to (female). You can see why I sympathize more with actual women wanting F/F than guys wanting F/F.

Meanwhile again, gay men and bisexual men have absolutely nothing in Mass Effect. And I find it outrageous that many of these male F/F supporters would then have the ignorance to say that they don't want M/M because it's gross or they don't want to be hit on by guys or something.

I think real lesbians or bi woman would have been fine with any of the options (Miranda/Jack/Tali), they are just happy to get an option period.

I don't think that's true. Look at Kelly. She's an option.

I'm not sure how Jack is more of the 'lesbian type' than say, Miranda, either.

I've noticed that Jack has much more support for being an F/F option among lesbian and bisexual women than any other female love interest available only to males. It has nothing to do her being a more "lesbian type," which I never even tried to say. There is no "lesbian type."

I don't care if some guys giggle over it and go 'oh, coolz! lesbians!!'.

Stuff like that annoys me, but that alone I can deal with. But I don't think Bioware should be listening to them.

The only one that maybe should be criticized is Kelly's, as it seems to be thrown in for that very reason you take offense to.

Spot on. I'd rather them be listening to lesbian and bisexual women than straight guys for F/F romances. Why? I don't want a proper F/F romance to be replaced with something that's supposed to be titillating for straight guys.

It also seems that most people that enjoy f/f romances aren't thrilled or impressed with Kelly's.

Kelly also has no romance scene. She does a stripper dance for femShep but that's already in the game in the clubs - it's nothing new. If she had a sex scene like Miranda's I'd assure you that she'd be much more popular with men. So Kelly is not a good example.

Modifié par Collider, 19 mai 2010 - 08:13 .

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

When they already have the option to play as their own gender and romance a character of a gender they are attracted to, I find many of their requests to be rather insignificant and annoying.

Why should they be forced to play the hetero version of the romance if they prefer the lesbian version?  Is it odd to think a heterosexual may prefer a homosexual romance in literature/games?  Maybe they don't want to play as their own gender...maybe they prefer the idea of a female action hero to a male one?

Meanwhile, lesbian and bisexual women have much less options in terms of F/F. They either have 1 (or none) option to play as their own gender (female) and romance the character of the gender they are attracted to (female). You can see why I sympathize more with actual women wanting F/F than guys wanting F/F.

That makes no sense.  If they add an f/f option, both lesbians/bi-women and straight guys who like it will benefit.  If they decide to with-hold them b/c 'only straight guys like them', both lesbians/bi-women and straight guys suffer.  I'm still not sure how you are cleaving f/f romances into two categories, 'for lesbians/bi-women' and 'for men'.   In most BW f/f romances, this doesn't appear to be the case.  I will only agree with Kelly, which seemed to be thrown in for the 'tee hee, lezbianz!' lolz.

I don't think that's true. Look at Kelly. She's an option.

Her romance was, unfortunately, turned into a joke, that's why most lesbians/bi-women (and even men who like f/f options) didn't romance her.

I've noticed that Jack has much more support for being an F/F option among lesbian and bisexual women than any other female love interest available only to males. It has nothing to do her being a more "lesbian type," which I never even tried to say. There is no "lesbian type."

Part of that might be because most assumed she would be a bi option, and got their hopes up for it, and thus, grew attached to her. Liara (as an f/f option) also has tons of support from lesbians/bi women. They are too completely different characters. Even if you are right, do you assume these 'straight guy knuckle draggers' wouldn't like a Jack f/f romance as much as the lesbians/bi-women?

Stuff like that annoys me, but that alone I can deal with. But I don't think Bioware should be listening to them.

Why not? They listened to the disgusting guys that wanted to 'bang' Tali, even though it could possibly kill her. I'm thinking back to the old forum where I actually saw guys post crap like this.

Spot on. I'd rather them be listening to lesbian and bisexual women than straight guys for F/F romances. Why? I don't want a proper F/F romance to be replaced with something that's supposed to be titillating for straight guys.

Right, but this is the first time BW did something like this. In every other game, the f/f romances were treated on par with the straight romances, and both lesbian gamers/bi-women gamers and straight guys enjoyed them far far more than the Kelly fiasco.

Kelly also has no romance scene. She does a stripper dance for femShep but that's already in the game in the clubs - it's nothing new. If she had a sex scene like Miranda's I'd assure you that she'd be much more popular with men. So Kelly is not a good example.

If Kelly was treated as a legit romance, she'd be more popular with queer women also. I was saying, because it was short-changed, it just seemed thrown in there as an after-thought, just to include some f/f stuff. Why? IDK, maybe to appease the guys, as you say. This seemed to backfire though as no one likes it really that much.

Modifié par jlb524, 19 mai 2010 - 08:27 .

[ManBearPig91]

ninjakittie wrote...

Playing a female Shepard is terrible in ME2, the love interest choice are terrible. Jacob is boring and too nice, Garrus has a half blown up face and too much of a friend, and Thane is awesome and cool but I'll pass on mating with a half fish, half lizard. Looks like hell raiser. Why couldnt I get Jack, Miranda, or Tali. I really wanted Tali. Come on Bioware seriously, with what you made possible in Dragon Age you are going to run away and be forced to be traditional and boring. For shame. 

Why do I think he's a 13 year old that just wants lesbian sex?

[jlb524]

ManBearPig91 wrote...

ninjakittie wrote...

Playing a female Shepard is terrible in ME2, the love interest choice are terrible. Jacob is boring and too nice, Garrus has a half blown up face and too much of a friend, and Thane is awesome and cool but I'll pass on mating with a half fish, half lizard. Looks like hell raiser. Why couldnt I get Jack, Miranda, or Tali. I really wanted Tali. Come on Bioware seriously, with what you made possible in Dragon Age you are going to run away and be forced to be traditional and boring. For shame. 

Why do I think he's a 13 year old that just wants lesbian sex?

*sigh*

Here we go again.

Nice sig bar, btw.

[Collider]

[quote]jlb524 wrote...
Why should they be forced to play the hetero version of the romance if they prefer the lesbian version?[/quote]
Maybe because the romanceable character is heterosexual? Are you suggesting that every romanceable character be bisexual (I hope not)? Would you be saying the same thing if Liara was a lesbian? Why should they be forced to play the homosexual version of the romance if they prefer the heterosexual version, right?

[quote]Is it odd to think a heterosexual may prefer a homosexual romance in literature/games?[/quote]
It's not just that. We're not talking about guys preferring homosexual romances in general - in fact we're not talking about that all - as I said many of the male F/F/ fans think M/M is disgusting, so the statement I'm responding to doesn't really fit in context. F/F features only genders that the straight male fan is attracted to, so I don't believe for a second there is any significant amount of straight guys playing lesbian romances simply because of the novelty of it being homosexual, rather than because it's F/F.

[quote]Maybe they don't want to play as their own gender...maybe they prefer the idea of a female action hero to a male one?[/quote]
It's not that - it's the fact that they have so many options as their own gender whereas lesbians and bisexual women DON'T.



[quote]

That makes no sense.  If they add an f/f option, both lesbians/bi-women and straight guys who like it will benefit.[/quote]
Well of course if they LIKE it then they are going to benefit - that's obvious. The question is if they'll like it. The straight guys wanting the F/F romances tend to emphasize the sexual aspect, for example. They want some things different than a lesbian or bisexual woman might want, for instance. That is what I am saying - listen to how actual lesbian and bisexual women want F/F romances, not how straight guys want them. There is a difference.

Straight guys already have options, lesbian and bisexual women don't have many at all. So prioritize their wishes, not the wishes of straight guys. 

[quote]
Her romance was, unfortunately, turned into a joke, that's why most lesbians/bi-women (and even men who like f/f options) didn't romance her.[/quote]
This is my point. If you're going to put F/F, put more importance to what lesbian/bisexual women want, don't put in some watered down version instead for straight guys who are more easily pleased.

[quote]Part of that might be because most assumed she would be a bi option, and got their hopes up for it, and thus, grew attached to her. [/quote]
It's not exactly what the reasoning of the lesbian and bisexual women is, as the point. It's that they want it most.

[quote]Liara (as an f/f option) also has tons of support from lesbians/bi women. [/quote]
Well yea, she is an F/F option and a real romance unlike Kelly.

[quote]They are too completely different characters.[/quote]
Don't see how that matters. I'm not under any illusion that lesbian and bisexual women only like one type of women - obviously they are of different tastes and able to appreciate different personalities just as any other orientation or gender

[quote]Even if you are right, do you assume these 'straight guy knuckle draggers' wouldn't like a Jack f/f romance as much as the lesbians/bi-women?[/quote]
I'm not assuming that. I just said that I noticed more support for Jack F/F among bisexual and lesbian women, nothing else.

[quote]
Why not? They listened to the disgusting guys that wanted to 'bang' Tali, even though it could possibly kill her. I'm thinking back to the old forum where I actually saw guys post crap like this. [/quote]
You actually don't know that they listened to them. It's not like if there are some guys who just want to see femShep bang Jack in pre-ME2 days (but at the same time there's plenty of lesbian/bisexual women who wanted Jack as F/F) I'm going to assume they listened to the disgusting guys over the women.

There were plenty of people who wanted to just romance Tali - that was the majority.

One or two Mass Effect writers posted in the thread agreeing that a romance would be possible. It wasn't a one sided thing.

And you're missing another thing here. Those were straight guys wanting a straight relationship. We're not talking about that. We're talking about straight guys wanting lesbian relationships. I DON'T want them listening to guys who are JUST going "teehee" lesbians because I want them to listen to actual lesbian and bisexual women instead. I don't want something focusing on skin (straight guys drooling) rather than the romance (lesbian/bi women).


[quote]
Right, but this is the first time BW did something like this. In every other game, the f/f romances were treated on par with the straight romances, and both lesbian gamers/bi-women gamers and straight guys enjoyed them far far more than the Kelly fiasco.[/quote]
Past history isn't my point. All I'm saying is that I want them to prioritize the wishes of lesbian and bisexual women over that of straight guys. Do you agree with that? And I'm saying that I don't want them to listen to the guys who just want to see lesbian sex. Why - because obviously lesbian and bisexual women don't just want sex and I'd hate for those women to get something watered down in some form or another because they listened to straight guys.

[quote]If Kelly was treated as a legit romance, she'd be more popular with queer women also. I was saying, because it was short-changed, it just seemed thrown in there as an after-thought, just to include some f/f stuff. Why? IDK, maybe to appease the guys, as you say. This seemed to backfire though as no one likes it really that much.[/quote]
This is my point. If Bioware is going to put in F/F, listen to the actual women who want it, please. I don't want Kelly all over again.

Modifié par Collider, 19 mai 2010 - 08:55 .

[Revan312]

I'll throw my two cents in, I'm a straight male who really would have liked an F/F romance in ME2 yet I also wish there was an M/M romance as well.

I'm one of the few people who modded my original ME game to be able to romance Kaiden with a male shep and Ashley with a female shep.

The reason gay/bi relationships appeal to me in media is because I'm tired of the same old story of heterosexual heroes. 99% of all games and movies have that slant and I'm just bored with it. I also thought that Bioware should have made femshep the poster child for the game rather than sheploo as again, there aren't many games where there's a female lead character and if that lead character is female there's few where she isn't overly sexualized.

I've grown up with the same story of the guy gets the girl and beats the unspeakable evil about a million times, so I enjoy RPG's that give me a choice in relationships. I'm not normally a person that plays myself in a game, I play characters with their own personalities and roles so I generally pick the most out of norm characters to play as.

Now the ME games are pretty linear and I understand the limitations that exist in making wildly different conclusions from playthrough to playthrough. But allowing some characters to be bi/gay in an attempt to allow other gamers the same chance at equal enjoyment isn't very difficult. In fact the LI dialogue's are generally pretty gender neutral which means that Bioware wouldn't need but a few more lines from Jennifer Hale/Mark Meer to get them done, and in a game of literally thousands of lines of audio, that's not too hard.

Bottom line is I don't think you (Collider) can generalize as to why certain people would want a F/F or M/M romance in an RPG that labels itself as "your adventure". Now ya, there's gonna be people who just like to watch digital lesbians have makeout sessions but I know there's also a section that wants them in because either they are bi/gay or enjoy seeing something different or having their hero go against the established grain. I'm one of the latter and have been in almost every RPG I've played since I started gaming.

I also wish that the relationships had far more build up time and would progress in a more natural fashion rather than two flirt sessions and then sex in the engine room. My favorite Bioware romance to date has been Alistair's as it, more than any other Bioware romance, felt paced and steady. By the end Alistair and your Warden seemed truly attached to one another and it felt as though I had watched two people actually fall in love.

One last thing, I'm with jib on the Kelly romance. It was a joke and beyond the pale. The second it started I knew it was there just for the people your railing against, e.g. heterosexual pervs. It served no other purpose besides having a piece of tail that femshep could have. And as jib said, it didn't go over very well, which tells me the people, even the hetero's, that want a f/f or m/m are looking for a more mature representation that what was handed to us like a piece of dirty candy.

Modifié par Revan312, 19 mai 2010 - 09:04 .

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Why should they be forced to play the hetero version of the romance if they prefer the lesbian version?

Maybe because the romanceable character is heterosexual? Are you suggesting that every romanceable character be bisexual (I hope not)? Would you be saying the same thing if Liara was a lesbian? Why should they be forced to play the homosexual version of the romance if they prefer the heterosexual version, right?

I meant given the option to play the romance as both genders (like Liara), what is wrong with a straight guy preferring the lesbian version of the romance?  Should straight guys only play the straight version of it?  I wasn't suggesting that all characters be bisexual.  It seemed that you were suggesting that straight guys should prefer heterosexual romances to lesbian ones, and shouldn't be bummed if there are no f/f options, as they have plenty of straight ones.

It's not just that. We're not talking about guys preferring homosexual romances in general - in fact we're not talking about that all - as I said many of the male F/F/ fans think M/M is disgusting, so the statement I'm responding to doesn't really fit in context. F/F features only genders that the straight male fan is attracted to, so I don't believe for a second there is any significant amount of straight guys playing lesbian romances simply because of the novelty of it being homosexual, rather than because it's F/F.

Not all guys who like f/f romances find m/m ones appalling. They might not play them, but they are not opposed to them existing. I don't play m/m (or f/m) but am not opposed to BW including them. I don't think they play it for the novelty of being homosexual either. They like 2 females together in a romance, so do I...the reason why I play them.

It's not that - it's the fact that they have so many options as their own gender whereas lesbians and bisexual women DON'T.

Maybe they don't want to play as their own gender? You can play as either, men aren't limited to just playing males. Plus, alot of lesbians and bi-women play as a male to get the female options. Should they just stick it out and wait for an option for their own gender?

Well of course if they LIKE it then they are going to benefit - that's obvious. The question is if they'll like it. The straight guys wanting the F/F romances tend to emphasize the sexual aspect, for example. They want some things different than a lesbian or bisexual woman might want, for instance. That is what I am saying - listen to how actual lesbian and bisexual women want F/F romances, not how straight guys want them. There is a difference.

Really? How do you know this? I think you are being a bit presumptuous to think only straight guys care about the sex and women only care about the romance. What do you think of the Liara f/f romance? Is that geared towards men or women? Or, the Leliana f/f romance?

This is my point. If you're going to put F/F, put more importance to what lesbian/bisexual women want, don't put in some watered down version instead for straight guys who are more easily pleased.

I think you are missing the point that lesbians and bi-sexual women are happy with the f/f romances BW has included in the past, maybe excepting Kelly. They've put in f/f romances that women and men have both liked. I'm still not sure why you are still cleaving it up and saying it's just there for the enjoyment of straight guys.

And you're missing another thing here. Those were straight guys wanting a straight relationship. We're not talking about that. We're talking about straight guys wanting lesbian relationships. I DON'T want them listening to guys who are JUST going "teehee" lesbians because I want them to listen to actual lesbian and bisexual women instead. I don't want something focusing on skin (straight guys drooling) rather than the romance (lesbian/bi women).

My point with Tali is that you cannot generalize. There were some disgusting guys that said some offensive things about a potential Tali/Shep romance, but I don't believe all of them are like this, nor do I feel the romance is lesser for this, nor should be excluded because of these few. Just how you shouldn't generalize that all guys who want f/f are 'droolers' who want it for the 'lesbian sex' only.

Past history isn't my point. All I'm saying is that I want them to prioritize the wishes of lesbian and bisexual women over that of straight guys. Do you agree with that? And I'm saying that I don't want them to listen to the guys who just want to see lesbian sex. Why - because that's obviously not what lesbian and bisexual women want and I'd hate for those women to get something watered down in some form or another because they listened to straight guys.

That's not what we want, and, believe it or not, that's not what some straight guys that enjoy f/f romances want either. I don't know who they listened to in the past, but I find their former f/f romances acceptable. Kelly is the one I take issue with.

I just worry that people will use this 'f/f romances are only for droolers!' argument to try to justify the elimination of these romances from games. It just seems like, no matter what f/f romance they add and even if they listen to real lesbians/bi-women, someone will come along and claim it's only there for the 'droolers' and should be removed to save us from that.

[Revan312]

jlb524 wrote...

That's not what we want, and, believe it or not, that's not what some straight guys that enjoy f/f romances want either. I don't know who they listened to in the past, but I find their former f/f romances acceptable. Kelly is the one I take issue with.

I just worry that people will use this 'f/f romances are only for droolers!' argument to try to justify the elimination of these romances from games. It just seems like, no matter what f/f romance they add and even if they listen to real lesbians/bi-women, someone will come along and claim it's only there for the 'droolers' and should be removed to save us from that.

That's my worry as well.  Progress is slow when you have people that will always make excuses.  At the end of the day it doesn't matter if there are hump crazy pervs or anti-homosexual weirdos, the point of being progressive is to try and step outside preconceived notions and put equality above tradition. 

The gaming world is stagnite and mired with geek fantasy traditionalists.  Certain companys like Nintendo are trying to expand the horizon beyond the 14 - 24 hetero male demographic and I was assuming that Bioware was trying to expand that horizon as well.  Setting the standard in past games is also a big part of the disappointment here as now it feels as if Bioware took a step backwards by excluding ANY bi relationship (let alone an actual gay one) minus the obviously dysfunctional.

[Nivenus]

I think you're still missing our main point, jb, in that there's an incredible hypocrisy inherent in complaining about an absence of lesbian romances when they do exist and gay male relationships are entirely non-existent.

I'm not opposed to more f/f or bisexual female romances, but I think m/m gets priority if BioWare makes more homosexual romances.

Dokarqt wrote...

Collider wrote...

Leliana is not promiscuous. In fact you need 100 approval to sleep with her if I'm not mistaken.

I
partly disagree. Leliana might have "reformed" but she used to be
extremely promiscuous, sleeping her way through the entire orlesian
aristocracy to assassinate/gather info.

IIRC Leliana used seduction but AFAIK was really only involved with Marjolaine.

Modifié par Nivenus, 19 mai 2010 - 09:34 .

[Revan312]

Nivenus wrote...

I think you're still missing our main point, jb, in that there's an incredible hypocrisy inherent in complaining about an absence of lesbian romances when they do exist and gay male relationships are entirely non-existent.

I'm not opposed to more f/f or bisexual female romances, but I think m/m gets priority if BioWare makes more homosexual romances.

The thing everyone seems to be forgetting however is that it's SUPER easy to make either F/F or M/M LI's in these games.  The animations that femshep/maleshep use are the same, the normal dialogue is the same, the ONLY thing that's missing is the 10 lines of dialogue from either Mark Meer or Jennifer Hale and the gender check change for same sex characters.

The only reason these relationships aren't in the game is because of politics, that's it...

[Collider]

[quote]jlb524 wrote...
I meant given the option to play the romance as both genders (like Liara), what is wrong with a straight guy preferring the lesbian version of the romance?  Should straight guys only play the straight version of it?  I wasn't suggesting that all characters be bisexual.  It seemed that you were suggesting that straight guys should prefer heterosexual romances to lesbian ones, and shouldn't be bummed if there are no f/f options, as they have plenty of straight ones.[/quote]
Not exactly. I want them to consider the fact that they have their cake already. They may prefer F/F but really, they need to consider that gay/bi men and women are getting the shorter end of the stick, and stop complaining that they don't get their titilation.

[quote]
Not all guys who like f/f romances find m/m ones appalling. [/quote]
A great deal of them do. There is much more tolerance towards F/F than M/M in general. I generally attribute this to my opinion that women tend to be more tolerant in general, including LGBT people and their issues. Probably because women tend to be more empathetic and compassionate.

[quote]They might not play them, but they are not opposed to them existing. [/quote]
Not as a rule. I've seen plenty of guys who don't want M/M in the game at all but do want F/F. Their reasoning boggles the mind but they do exist. Unabashed sexists and objectifiers of women. They don't want F/F but the prospect of guys hitting on their male character makes them go "ewww."

[quote]I don't play m/m (or f/m) but am not opposed to BW including them.[/quote]
Well you're not a straight guy.

[quote]
Maybe they don't want to play as their own gender?[/quote]
At least they have the option to play as their own gender and romance the female characters. In most cases female players don't.

[quote]You can play as either, men aren't limited to just playing males. Plus, alot of lesbians and bi-women play as a male to get the female options. Should they just stick it out and wait for an option for their own gender?[/quote]
I never suggested that if the option already exists, they shouldn't use them. I never suggested anything like that, so I'm wondering what your point is here.

[quote]
Really? How do you know this? I think you are being a bit presumptuous to think only straight guys care about the sex and women only care about the romance. [/quote]
I never used "only" here. I said that men tend to empathize the sexual aspect more than the women do. I've seen this everywhere.

[quote]What do you think of the Liara f/f romance? Is that geared towards men or women? Or, the Leliana f/f romance?[/quote]
I haven't thought about either. Are they geared towards men or women? I'd tell you if I could mindread Bioware developers.


[quote]
This is my point. If you're going to put F/F, put more importance to what lesbian/bisexual women want, don't put in some watered down version instead for straight guys who are more easily pleased.
[/quote]

I think you are missing the point that lesbians and bi-sexual women are happy with the f/f romances BW has included in the past, maybe excepting Kelly. [/quote]
The past isn't my point, as I said. I'm talking about what they may do in the future.

[quote]I'm still not sure why you are still cleaving it up and saying it's just there for the enjoyment of straight guys. [/quote]
That is a huge misinterpretation. I never suggested once that F/F romances were EVER just for the enjoyment of straight guys. That is so far from the truth and so far from what I've been saying. I'm saying I DON'T want them to be just for the enjoyment of straight guys, or relying on them more than the actual women who want it.

[quote]
Just how you shouldn't generalize that all guys who want f/f are 'droolers' who want it for the 'lesbian sex' only.[/quote]
I am not generalizing all of them. I am attacking those who do only want the lesbian sex - the knuckle draggers, if you will. I don't want Bioware to listen to them and neither do you hopefully.

[quote]
I just worry that people will use this 'f/f romances are only for droolers!' argument to try to justify the elimination of these romances from games.[/quote]
If anything, I see these argument as influencing Bioware to hold the interests of their LGBT fans more at heart, because people are taking offense from Bioware tacking on stripping or lap dances or whatever as similar to Kelly.

[quote]It just seems like, no matter what f/f romance they add and even if they listen to real lesbians/bi-women, someone will come along and claim it's only there for the 'droolers' and should be removed to save us from that.
[/quote]
I never suggested that they are. I don't want any F/F or M/F (would say M/M if that had existed in Mass Effect) to be removed. The only one that may fit the description as being for "droolers" may be Kelly. I never found any fault at all with Leliana or Liara or Juhani and I'm not claiming that any of them were made for straight guys. I just don't want future F/F romances to be for straight guys or relying more on the wishes of straight guys. 

And like Nivenus said, I find straight guys complaining about not "enough" F/F when there is NO M/M to be rather annoying.

Modifié par Collider, 19 mai 2010 - 09:43 .

[Collider]

Dokarqt wrote...

Collider wrote...

Leliana is not promiscuous. In fact you need 100 approval to sleep with her if I'm not mistaken.

I partly disagree. Leliana might have "reformed" but she used to be extremely promiscuous, sleeping her way through the entire orlesian aristocracy to assassinate/gather info.

Her current state is what matters the most. And her current state is that she is basically fluffy and full of goodness (unless you "renegade" her I guess). She's easily the most morally upright person of the entire party along with Wynne.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Allow me to clarify:



Its obvious from the posts of the OP that he is a male who wants F/F romance for the reason Collider argues against. There are also a couple others.



The next problem I have is the one I have stated in the S/S thread about changing or modifying sexual orientation. This can be applied to the male characters as well.



The third problem I have are people bringing up Samara because that to me makes it look like people want everyone in the game to be romancable, which I strongly disagree with.



What I am arguing against is not the bisexual relationships of Liara and Kelly it is changing or modifying previously set sexual orientation. They may have had plans for it but because it wasn't implemented in characters like Tali and Thane it is what it is.



I would prefer to have new characters defined as homosexual (as I have stated in the S/S thread I feel that bisexual characters are a bit of a compromise) as it would be bold. Right now we only have a couple of bisexual romances with female characters because that is more socially acceptable than such with a male character, and this I disagree with.



As it stands in ME 2 there are three straight male romances, three straight female romances and an additional pseduowhatever straight thing with Kelly and bisexual with Kelly. There needs to be an actual same sex romance for both genders but that isn't what many in this thread have argued for.

[Collider]

They may have had plans for it but because it wasn't implemented in characters like Tali and Thane it is what it is.

I don't believe we can say that they had plans for that (I know that's not what you're saying though).

ALL of the romances in both games (aside from possibly Jacob) have recorded lines from Shepard indicating a same sex romance. I don't believe that they were going to make 8 out of 9 romances all bisexual. They recorded those seemingly most likely for convenience on the chance that they'd use them.

Modifié par Collider, 19 mai 2010 - 09:45 .

[LadyAlekto]

on the matter of homosexual romance option, i am for it, i dont mind m/m included or not (aka i stopped playing a male at kinda level6 as the voice isnt as good as femshep) but id like a f/f, as i am into both, i had prefered during the "thats me rescuing the galaxy" playthrough to get either jack or doc chakwas (yes ye ole lady that probly knows a few tricks around) srsly miranda just looks like a playboybunny included for the "drooling male" faction (nice knockers/ass tho) and i wouldnt do tali, cuz it might kill her AND i dislike her position towards the geth, same as why i did liara just once, that girl just wanted my brain, preferably dissected and studied(third play and i just admitted she was damn innocent and unsocial)



tho about the m/m i got a friend who'd anytime get into jacobs pants, he is just insane for big black guys^^



(went for garrus in that playthrough, badass renegade with quite a smirk in him? sure, tho i dont see the supportive waist of my femshep, hes got more;)

[Revan312]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Allow me to clarify:

Its obvious from the posts of the OP that he is a male who wants F/F romance for the reason Collider argues against. There are also a couple others.

The next problem I have is the one I have stated in the S/S thread about changing or modifying sexual orientation. This can be applied to the male characters as well.

The third problem I have are people bringing up Samara because that to me makes it look like people want everyone in the game to be romancable, which I strongly disagree with.

What I am arguing against is not the bisexual relationships of Liara and Kelly it is changing or modifying previously set sexual orientation. They may have had plans for it but because it wasn't implemented in characters like Tali and Thane it is what it is.

I would prefer to have new characters defined as homosexual (as I have stated in the S/S thread I feel that bisexual characters are a bit of a compromise) as it would be bold. Right now we only have a couple of bisexual romances with female characters because that is more socially acceptable than such with a male character, and this I disagree with.

As it stands in ME 2 there are three straight male romances, three straight female romances and an additional pseduowhatever straight thing with Kelly and bisexual with Kelly. There needs to be an actual same sex romance for both genders but that isn't what many in this thread have argued for.

The only thing I don't understand is the seemingly "big deal" it is for people to have bisexual characters in their game.  If Jacob was bi and had an option to flirt with him as a male shep, it makes some gamers feel put off to such a point as to seem homophobic.  I really don't understand how hard it is for some people to just ignore dialogue options and play the game as their character in their universe.

Anymore I think it would just be easier to make everyone bi on the entire team and just have a question at the beginning asking what sexual orientation your crew members should be...  Any chance of having multiple choices with multiple characters is appaling to some gamers for reasons I'll never understand.  "Jacob can be gay?!?!  he iz gr055, I hate Bioware!"

[Onyx Jaguar]

You're gonna run into that stigma regardless with a bisexual character, more so if they are male. Personally I feel that they should just make them fully homosexual if given the option.

The reason I am against having everyone Bi is because I believe that sexuality is an important aspect to a person and if everyone on board was available to Shepard regardless of sex it would seem like just throwing it out there and would seem a bit off.

EDIT:  It wouldn't be believable is what I am saying especially with how it is defined in ME 2

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 19 mai 2010 - 10:06 .

[jlb524]

@Collider



If you just have a problem with the few straight guys that whine about wanting f/f romances just because they like to see girly, action, that's fine. There are a lot of morons around here asking for many odd things. I was just worried you were generalizing this to include all men who want f/f content, and give informed reasons for why the do. It just seems, to me, some people attack anyone wanting f/f romances with the same 'YOU JUST DIRTY STRAIGHT GUY!!' no matter their reasons for wanting it, or they assume this is the reason when none is given. This is what I take offense to.



I do not take offense to being upset with guys that just want f/f for the 'hot sex' and hate m/m. I find that offensive as well. I just don't see that much of it around here, and think they should be ignored if they pop up.

[Collider]

I believe we have reached consensus jlb.

Modifié par Collider, 19 mai 2010 - 10:17 .

[jlb524]

Finally!

[Revan312]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

You're gonna run into that stigma regardless with a bisexual character, more so if they are male. Personally I feel that they should just make them fully homosexual if given the option.

The reason I am against having everyone Bi is because I believe that sexuality is an important aspect to a person and if everyone on board was available to Shepard regardless of sex it would seem like just throwing it out there and would seem a bit off.

EDIT:  It wouldn't be believable is what I am saying especially with how it is defined in ME 2

Oh I agree that making everyone Bi would be dumb. And I also agree that they should make a couple fully gay individuals.  But not allowing ANY gay LI's or for that matter even bi LI's (I don't count kelly as she's not really a romance) is a step backwards.

Bisexuality is more acceptable so that's going to be the first step towards equality.  I'm not gonna fool myself and assume that they're gonna make a full blown gay male character as people can barely accept any bisexual characters and even then they have to be female.  Excluding any semblence of different sexual orientation when they've included them in most of their past RPG's just seems rediculous however.

Personally I wish that Jack wouldn't have been romancable and Samara would have filled her void(or just make jack bi), and Garrus as well was Bi (for the bromancers).  That would have allowed another romance for each gender and some cross orientation choice.

But now I'm rambling about what I want..  Really all I'm trying to say is that Bioware is falling back into the ditch that the media has been in for a long time.  Television and movies have made some strides in the last ten years but games are trailing way behind because of the demographic that's associated with the industry.  Bioware's past games have sold boatloads because of the expansion of choices they allow in their titles.  Women, men, teenagers and middle-aged people all play Bioware games and I'm just disappointed that they're alienating a section of their game base for no other reason than politics.

Modifié par Revan312, 19 mai 2010 - 10:34 .