192 réponses à ce sujet

[Siven80]

I prefer the Vindicator, but have ended up using the Rev as it has much more ammo.

But what i'd really like is a slight damage buffed Avenger M-8

[JaegerBane]

Warlokki wrote...

Prefer Avenger. Revenant is good in the end game (kills massed enemies easily) but a bit too inaccurate.
Vindicator? Sucks. Wastes ammo if fired on low health enemy. Autoaim throws my aim off easily (too strong Autoaim in the game). Besides, burst firing weapons are not cool.

Avenger is full auto, accurate if you limit your fire, good damage. The best. And looks the best too.

What you prefer in terms of looks is obviously a matter of personal preference, but the reasoning you've given for the Vindicator 'sucking' is hardly legit. The Vindicator packs a massive punch - a few bursts are all that's need to take down Harbinger, and you can pretty much get away with headshots for most creatures. Its power and accuracy are extremely high, superior to every other AR. It falls down in terms of close range power, but for a character that has shotguns and/or SMGs that is a non-issue.

The Avenger is turd. It's inferior to every AR in the game, barring the pulse rifle. It's even inferior to the Tempest, despite being from a supposedly superior weapon group.

And for that matter, I prefer the Vindicator model to the blimp-shaped Avenger...

[JaegerBane]

kennyme2 wrote...
Personally, my experience with the Revenant has been amazing. A defining moment for me was when Harbinger took control right in front of me and (panicking) I turned on Adrenaline rush and unloaded my Revenant into him. Much to my surprise, the Revenant killed the Harbinger before it even finished it's transformation. You can't do that with the Vindicator.

I managed it in the Collector base. Similar situation, only I'd exhausted my Particle Cannon ammo.

[Chief Savage Man]

Vindicator suits my playstyle much better than the revenant or the avenger. I use adrenaline rush a lot and go for headshots from a distance. The Vindicator, especially with upgrades, is perfect for me.

[JaegerBane]

Chief Savage Man wrote...

Vindicator suits my playstyle much better than the revenant or the avenger. I use adrenaline rush a lot and go for headshots from a distance. The Vindicator, especially with upgrades, is perfect for me.

If I was playing a Soldier, I'm not sure I'd pick the Vindicator. It's a brilliant weapon for my Vanguard as he doesn't have time to fart about with scopes and whatnot, but still needs a heavyweight piece to shoot at long range, and he's already got the glorious Tempest to mow people down.

But I think playing without any automatic weapons as a soldier would be a bit weird. Soldiers have the Viper too, so I'm not sure they'd need a battle rifle.

[JaegerBane]

Mr.Skar wrote...

Off topic, but since we are already comparing the Vinidcator to something, how does it stack up against the Collector AR? From what little use I have made of it it's way more accurate, has a smaller amount of ammo, and fires in bursts. Collector is less accurate and holds more clips, but what are the numbers (since I know the PC gamers can figure it out)?

The Collector AR is a bit weird. It's vastly superior to the Avenger in every department except rate of fire. Much more accurate but IIRC it is the slowest firing of all the auto-weapons in the game.

Essentially, it sits between the Avenger and the Vindicator.

[blank1]

The Avenger has over 300 more points of damage in its total ammo load out than the Vindicator -- 4400 and some change versus 4700 and some change. The Avenger is pretty dang accurate too. The Revenant beats the living sh*t out of both of them, with over 10,000 damage in a single ammo load out. This means that if you miss every other shot with the Revenant, you still out damage both the Avenger and Vindicator... and what scrub has 50% accuracy on a Revenant with the AR accuracy upgrade? Also, a miss with the Vindicator hurts a lot more than a miss with the Avenger or Revenant, since there's more damage per bullet compared to the other two.

[JaegerBane]

blank1 wrote...

The Avenger has over 300 more points of damage in its total ammo load out than the Vindicator -- 4400 and some change versus 4700 and some change. The Avenger is pretty dang accurate too. The Revenant beats the living sh*t out of both of them, with over 10,000 damage in a single ammo load out. This means that if you miss every other shot with the Revenant, you still out damage both the Avenger and Vindicator... and what scrub has 50% accuracy on a Revenant with the AR accuracy upgrade? Also, a miss with the Vindicator hurts a lot more than a miss with the Avenger or Revenant, since there's more damage per bullet compared to the other two.

You can't really glean anything worthwhile from potential damage based on the amount of ammo you can carry. The second you start picking up more ammo, the comparison loses any meaning.

Sure, the Vindicator does become an issue if you miss. That's why professionals choose the Vindicator and have-a-go amateurs go for the Avenger

The point can easily be turned around in that if you don't miss, you're bringing down opponents far faster at any range.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 10 février 2010 - 11:15 .

[blank1]

I'm God's gift to TPS and FPS and I use a Revenant. Pfft. You can't pretend like you have 100% accuracy either, since bullets have travel time in this game.

The Vindicator is pretty prone to running out of ammo since you overkill a lot of enemies, even on insanity. Also, I'm pretty sure the Vindicator loses some effectiveness on barriers and shields compared to the Avenger and Revenant as well, gaining some ground on armor over the Avenger. I spent some time using all of them... got sick of being perpetually low on ammo, so I when Revenant and never worried about a thing afterward.

Modifié par blank1, 10 février 2010 - 11:20 .

[JaegerBane]

blank1 wrote...

I'm God's gift to TPS and FPS and I use a Revenant. Pfft. You can't pretend like you have 100% accuracy either, since bullets have travel time in this game.

Exactly, which is why points based on the amount of ammo you can carry are of limited value. By that logic the Widow is useless because it's only got 13 shots.

The Vindicator is pretty prone to running out of ammo since you overkill a lot of enemies, even on insanity. Also, I'm pretty sure the Vindicator loses some effectiveness on barriers and shields compared to the Avenger and Revenant as well, gaining some ground on armor over the Avenger. I spent some time using all of them... got sick of being perpetually low on ammo, so I when Revenant and never worried about a thing afterward.

Agreed. I think the Vindicator is best used by classes that have access to SMGs. They can just switch to Tempests when enemies get up close and sidestep all the Vindicator's problems.

The Rev is a great piece but I think it's just as well that it's a Soldier-only gun. I'm not sure how much use it would be too anyone else.

[SirEmilCrane]

I mostly play as a soldier and I can't tell you how many enemies have fallen to the revenant. As a soldier you have a sniper rifle for a reason. But in a mid range fight the rev is god. With short controled bursts and the right ammo you can drop anything even the end boss.



Though I can see how the Vindicator could help if you aren't a soldier, oh well.

[WKS7]

For a soldier, I chose the revenant, and for an infiltrator I chose the widow. Honestly, I preferred the revenant. on hardcore I just kept running out of ammo on the widow. and with the accuracy upgrade I found myself bursting the revenant just like the vindicator. So with a fully upgraded revenant I basically had a vindicator that had more ammo, both per thermal clip and overall, pure win.

Modifié par WKS7, 11 février 2010 - 02:31 .

[Athenau]

 Anyone who claims that the Vindicator does more dps (lol) is innumerate. Let's do the math, shall we?

Vindicator, 900 ROF, 36.8 damage per shot, 3 round bursts, .625 s burst refire rate. At 900 RPM a burst takes .2 s. You have .625s between bursts. That's .825 s per burst, for a dps of 133.81.

The Revenant is fully automatic with a ROF of 700 RPM and 21.3 damage per shot. That's a dps of 248.5.

Update:  There are two entries in coalesced.ini that seem to control the burst fire rate.  One is burst refire, and the other min refire.  From my tests, the latter is delay between bursts when you tap the trigger as fast as possible.  So using that number we get .5 s per burst, for a much more competitive Vindicator dps of 221.

That isn't the whole picture though, because magazine size comes into effect.  The Vindicator fires an effective 6 rounds per second and will empty its magazine in 4 seconds.  The revenant will do the same in 6.86 seconds.  There's a universal 1.5 second reload, so the real dps numbers are 72% and 82% of the raw values for the Vindicator and Revenant resp, so 149.12 and 203.36.

This is still not a compelling argument for the Vindicator.

Yeah, the Vindicator is better at sniping people behind cover at long range. You know what's also really good at that? A sniper rifle.

The Revenant is versatile, offers beastly dps out to mid range, and carried a metric assload of ammo. My tests also indicate that it has relatively better armor penetration than the other assault rifles. It is, hands down, the best all-around weapon available to the soldier on insanity.

Modifié par Athenau, 11 février 2010 - 04:09 .

[GlassRain]

Revenant for general purpose and switching to sniper rifle if need to engage as distance. Honestly, burst firing or using adrenaline and unloading you will hit your target. The vindicator is nice for headshots but... unloading a light machine gun while the world around you is slowed just makes me want to start shouting rambo style!

[Athenau]

Also, a lot of people are treating the Revenant like an assault rifle and using short bursts all the time.



Don't do that. On humanoid opponents, aim for the chest/throat region and lay on the fire. As long as you control the recoil almost all your shots are going to hit, and the cone of fire means that you'll get a fair amount of headshots as well.



The key to using the weapon is controlling the muzzle climb. Don't worry overmuch about the accuracy cone unless you're taking potshots at someone hidden behind cover.

[Kordeshkistriakor]

:shrug:

Vindicator: better weapon

Revenant: more fun.

Go with the revenant

[Athenau]

A dps comparison of the Revenant, Vindicator, and Viper (with and without reload times):

Revenant: 248/209
Vindicator: 221/149
Viper: 320/217

The only way the Vindicator is competitive is if you a. Mash the fire button as hard as possible, b. discount reload times. In that case the accuracy argument goes out the window since you're obviously not lining up headshots.

And if you do want headshots, the viper is a superior weapon in every way, superior accuracy, much superior penetration, much superior dps, and you get that nice 50% headshot bonus from the second sniper rifle research.

At anything closer than midrange (where scoping with the viper is impractical), it's no contest, Revenant all the way.  Compared to the Vindicator you get more raw dps, huge magazine size, better penetration, four or five times more ammo per pickup, much better stagger chance...

The problem with the Vindicator for the soldier is that it's superfluous.  At every range there's a superior alternative.

Modifié par Athenau, 11 février 2010 - 05:21 .

[ABCoLD]

Revenant only if you like spraying bullets everywhere even with the AR accuracy upgrade. Of course my soldier works at range.

[Atti Ito]

Im currently playing a sentinel on insanity and I got AR's for the bonus weapon. Vindicator is ridiculous with armor-piercing active, and I only have it at rank 2. Even on this difficulty, I hit em with an overload, warp, then a quick couple bursts. So much easier than spraying dozens of SMG rounds at them, even at close range.

[lazorexplosion]

With the new eviscerator shotgun, evi (short range), vindicator (medium range) and widow (long range) is a very tempting combination.

[JaegerBane]

Athenau wrote...

 Anyone who claims that the Vindicator does more dps (lol) is innumerate. Let's do the math, shall we?

Vindicator, 900 ROF, 36.8 damage per shot, 3 round bursts, .625 s burst refire rate. At 900 RPM a burst takes .2 s. You have .625s between bursts. That's .825 s per burst, for a dps of 133.81.

The Revenant is fully automatic with a ROF of 700 RPM and 21.3 damage per shot. That's a dps of 248.5.

Update:  There are two entries in coalesced.ini that seem to control the burst fire rate.  One is burst refire, and the other min refire.  From my tests, the latter is delay between bursts when you tap the trigger as fast as possible.  So using that number we get .5 s per burst, for a much more competitive Vindicator dps of 221.

That isn't the whole picture though, because magazine size comes into effect.  The Vindicator fires an effective 6 rounds per second and will empty its magazine in 4 seconds.  The revenant will do the same in 6.86 seconds.  There's a universal 1.5 second reload, so the real dps numbers are 72% and 82% of the raw values for the Vindicator and Revenant resp, so 149.12 and 203.36.

This is still not a compelling argument for the Vindicator.

Yeah, the Vindicator is better at sniping people behind cover at long range. You know what's also really good at that? A sniper rifle.

The Revenant is versatile, offers beastly dps out to mid range, and carried a metric assload of ammo. My tests also indicate that it has relatively better armor penetration than the other assault rifles. It is, hands down, the best all-around weapon available to the soldier on insanity.

The problem with this whole argument is you're trying to bring in a raft of irrelevant details.

First of all, you're trying to bring in magazine size into a DPS argument. Clearly, whatever the numbers say, using this kind of logic implies that any weapon with the bigger magazine will have higher potential. Or in other words, the Widow's 1-round store means that it's colossal burst DPS is somehow inferior to the Rev's constant DPS. Which doesn't make any sense.

Secondly, you've somewhat ignored accuracy. The Rev may well have greater DPS but lacks accuracy as a counterbalance. Ignoring the counterbalance will simply skew the result of any analysis. The only mention you give is that the sniper rifle is better at sniping. What relevance does that have? The Claymore has better short-range firepower, but does that affect the DPS of the Rev? Realistically the whole sniper rfile argument only even makes sense if your soldier has the Mantis, as the Viper actually compares pretty unfavourably to the Vindicator. The damage of a single burst from the Vindicator actually packs a lot more punch than a Viper shot, refires more quickly and is effective against shields as well as armour.

Ultimately, I agree with the assertion that the Vindicator is a preferable weapon for classes with SMGs. My own Soldier went with the Rev, but that was primarily taking the Vindicator would meant he'd not have any auto weapons. I can certainly see the argument that a precision-orientated soldier would go for the Vindicator and choose the Widow as his upgrade.

[Roxlimn]

Depends on the mission and targets.



There is no reasons to choose between the Vindicator and the Revenant because even when you get the Revenant, you still have a Vindicator. For missions with a lot of precision work, the Vindicator+Viper combination is very potent.



For missions with a lot of close range work or large enemies, the Revenant outperforms the Vindicator handily.



The real question is Revenant vs. Widow.



For my Soldier, I picked the Revenant. The Widow is nice and everything, but it just makes the game too darned easy. If I wanted to snipe, I'd play an Infiltrator.

[boardnfool86]

the revenant is overpowered (in a good way of course) if you get the assault rifle accuracy upgrade...

[F1relizard]

I prefer the Revenant, regardless of how accurate it is. This is mostly due to its huge clip and ammo capacity, along with the fact that I can take out swarms of husks along with helping me when I carelessly charge an enemy and find myself pinned down. (Which happens a LOT )

As for the Vindicator, I kind of stopped using it after realizing that while a little more accurate, it didn't stand up to the sheer firepower the Revenant provided.