192 réponses à ce sujet

[Athenau]

First of all, you're trying to bring in magazine size into a DPS argument. Clearly, whatever the numbers say, using this kind of logic implies that any weapon with the bigger magazine will have higher potential. Or in other words, the Widow's 1-round store means that it's colossal burst DPS is somehow inferior to the Rev's constant DPS. Which doesn't make any sense.

It doesn't make sense to you because you're conflating terms.  DPS is DPS.  Burst damage is burst damage.  
Any discussion of dps must include magazine size, because with anything less than an unlimited magazine you're going to be spending a non-zero amount of time reloading, during which your dps drops to zero.

Secondly, you've somewhat ignored accuracy. The Rev may well have greater DPS but lacks accuracy as a counterbalance. Ignoring the counterbalance will simply skew the result of any analysis. The only mention you give is that the sniper rifle is better at sniping. What relevance does that have? The Claymore has better short-range firepower, but does that affect the DPS of the Rev? Realistically the whole sniper rfile argument only even makes sense if your soldier has the Mantis, as the Viper actually compares pretty unfavourably to the Vindicator. The damage of a single burst from the Vindicator actually packs a lot more punch than a Viper shot, refires more quickly and is effective against shields as well as armour.

My argument is very simple.   The Revenant is a soldier only weapon.   The soldier has access to sniper rifles.  At ranges where the Vindicator's superior accuracy becomes a significant advantage, a sniper rifle is better.  And no, the Vindicator does not outperform the Viper, not even close.  The Viper fires 4 rounds per second, does 81.9 damage per shot, gets a 50% headshot bonus and a 50% AP bonus (and armor penetration is more valuable than bonuses against shields and barriers on higher difficulties, because armor tends to be a lot stronger than shields or barriers, and the most dangerous enemies in the game have big armor pools that you must chew through quickly)

Ultimately, I agree with the assertion that the Vindicator is a preferable weapon for classes with SMGs. My own Soldier went with the Rev, but that was primarily taking the Vindicator would meant he'd not have any auto weapons. I can certainly see the argument that a precision-orientated soldier would go for the Vindicator and choose the Widow as his upgrade.

But a "precision oriented soldier" can simply stick to using a sniper rifle.  The only thing that choosing a Vindicator  does for you is a give you a second sniping weapon with its own ammo pool.    On the other hand, the Revenant covers a hole in the soldier's arsenal (a powerful close/medium range weapon that's always available) that isn't filled by anything else.

Modifié par Athenau, 11 février 2010 - 11:38 .

[Homebound]

Im sticking with the Revenant.

[Kaorunandrak]

The REV is just pure win. And if you spend enough time using it you can make up for the acc problems with rapid fire bursts, compensaiting for the "recoil" by adjusting while fireing, and by using your adrenaline rush. the Vindicator is tuns of fun till you get the rev but the Rev wins hands down. Espcially when i can kill 3-4 poeple at least without reloading.

[Shvabic]

The Rev looks great too.

[Archereon]

Revenant is more fun than the Vindicator or the Pulse rifle. That thing is like an energizer bunny in gun form, it just keeps shooting and shooting...

[zeypher]

the rev is a bloody brilliant gun

[gorezeelar]

for soldier, machine gun owns big time with Improved Incinerate rounds

[apk117]

Once you can attain the Assault Rifle Accuracy upgrade, the Revenant becomes a powerhouse. I'm surprised nobody mentioned the Collector Assault Rifle, I swapped between this and the Vindicator on my Insanity play-through and found the Collector to be better overall. But I suppose not everyone has access to that.

[mayatola]

There's like no recoil when you're firing in adrenaline rush (which is when you should be doing most of your shooting anyway), and with full auto and a huge clip, it does a ton of sustained damage. I can almost kill 2 collectors with full barriers in one adrenaline rush on insanity. I don't think the same can be said for the vindicator.

Modifié par mayatola, 12 février 2010 - 02:47 .

[Marilynn-22]

I prefer the Vindicator, I just make my other squad make use the rev, well the ones that can use it.

[Kaorunandrak]

um....only soldier shep can use the Rev no one else.

[Engared]

I use the Avenger for my canon Shepard. I prefer its accuracy to the revanant and its burst DPS in AD rush i feel is higher as it is much more accurate.

[JaegerBane]

Athenau wrote...

It doesn't make sense to you because you're conflating terms.  DPS is DPS.  Burst damage is burst damage.  
Any discussion of dps must include magazine size, because with anything less than an unlimited magazine you're going to be spending a non-zero amount of time reloading, during which your dps drops to zero.

There is such a thing as burst DPS and constant DPS. It was dicussed to the nth degree in the previous game. It was recognised as being a difference when the a Sniper Rifle with Master Assassination actually scored less than the Pistol with MM despite killing enemies in one shot. Like it or not, Magazine size is simply not something that affects the argument. If you're taking that into account, you need to take into account *anything* that interrupts firing, inlcuding moving to cover and particular enemies.

My argument is very simple.   The Revenant is a soldier only weapon.   The soldier has access to sniper rifles.  At ranges where the Vindicator's superior accuracy becomes a significant advantage, a sniper rifle is better.  And no, the Vindicator does not outperform the Viper, not even close.  The Viper fires 4 rounds per second, does 81.9 damage per shot, gets a 50% headshot bonus and a 50% AP bonus (and armor penetration is more valuable than bonuses against shields and barriers on higher difficulties, because armor tends to be a lot stronger than shields or barriers, and the most dangerous enemies in the game have big armor pools that you must chew through quickly)

The refire rate of the Viper is less than the refire rate of the Vindicator. The rate of fire of the Viper is vanishingly small compared to the Vindicator's burst (in the region of 8 times less). Utlimately, the Vindicator delivers it's 3 shots in the same time as the Viper's one.

Trying to bring in bonus armour penetration is another example of irrelevant details, as the sniper rifle's advantage is against armour. If it were against shields or barrier such a bonus would not exist, so I fail to see how this is relevant in a DPS discussion comparing the two weapons. This is, ultimately, the whole problem with your analysis. You're ignoring every single advantage of the AR class yet paying attention to any advantage any other class has.

But a "precision oriented soldier" can simply stick to using a sniper rifle.  The only thing that choosing a Vindicator  does for you is a give you a second sniping weapon with its own ammo pool.    On the other hand, the Revenant covers a hole in the soldier's arsenal (a powerful close/medium range weapon that's always available) that isn't filled by anything else.

Yes, I agree. The Revenant is pretty much the perfect example of the auto assault weapon (i.e. constant DPS) that the Soldier cannot get anywhere else. But even so, the Widow provides an absolutely massive burst DPS figure that frankl;y, is virtually impossible to replicate anywhere else aside from heavy weapons. Not to mention the fact that the soldier is one of only two classes that have the option. It's diffciult to recommend the Revenant in such a situation with such a weapon in the background.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 12 février 2010 - 05:47 .

[JaegerBane]

Engared wrote...

I use the Avenger for my canon Shepard. I prefer its accuracy to the revanant and its burst DPS in AD rush i feel is higher as it is much more accurate.

The rev does over twice the damage that the Avenger does per shot. Ultimately, it's a superior weapon.

[Captain Jazz]

I have nothing of use to add to this conversation... but I do have a question, and I apologise in advance if this has already been brought up, I usually read through a thread before posting but I am feeling lazy tonight.



I have an Engineer character who has run through once already, last time through I picked assault rifles for my bonus weapon on the collector vessel... when I go back there in my second playthrough, will I be able to pick up the Revenant, or will I be reselecting my bonus weapon? I'm just wondering because it cites Soldiers as being the only ones who can take the Revenant on the wiki and I phear the possible truthliness of that statement.

[The_Juggern0tt]

You only get to grab a weapon/weapon training once unfortunately (I to, dreamed of being armed with a Widow and a Revenant). When you reach that point on your 2nd playthrough, it just gets skipped.

[Captain Jazz]

Damn. Well... thank you... I'm going to go and have a nice cry now =<

Damn you bioware for not letting us twink out, damn you!

(Nah, it's cool, I'll just have to make a soldier char or summink... an engineer with an LMG would be pretty weird, thinking about it.)

[Athenau]

. Like it or not, Magazine size is simply not something that affects the argument. If you're taking that into account, you need to take into account *anything* that interrupts firing, inlcuding moving to cover and particular enemies.

Wrong. Magazine size is intrinsic to the weapon. You can't fire without eventually stopping to reload. That is an iron rule. Your argument is a just a lame attempt at equivocation.

The refire rate of the Viper is less than the refire rate of the Vindicator. The rate of fire of the Viper is vanishingly small compared to the Vindicator's burst (in the region of 8 times less). Utlimately, the Vindicator delivers it's 3 shots in the same time as the Viper's one.

Wrong again. The Viper fires 4 rounds per second. The Vindicator fires 2 bursts per second, for an effective fire rate of 6 rounds/sec. The viper does more than twice the damage per round. You should be able to draw the obvious conclusion without my having to spoon feed you.

Trying to bring in bonus armour penetration is another example of irrelevant details, as the sniper rifle's advantage is against armour. If it were against shields or barrier such a bonus would not exist, so I fail to see how this is relevant in a DPS discussion comparing the two weapons. This is, ultimately, the whole problem with your analysis. You're ignoring every single advantage of the AR class yet paying attention to any advantage any other class has.

I already explained why armor penetration is relevant on higher difficulties. I'm not going to waste my time doing it again.

Modifié par Athenau, 12 février 2010 - 11:18 .

[Ooga600]

i always run out of ammo with the vindicator, so i only give it to squadmates. I use the revenant myself, which is great if you get the accuracy upgrades and remember to fire in short controlled bursts at medium to long range

[mayatola]

Ooga600 wrote...

i always run out of ammo with the vindicator, so i only give it to squadmates. I use the revenant myself, which is great if you get the accuracy upgrades and remember to fire in short controlled bursts at medium to long range

I'll assume you missed my post, which is about 10 posts up, but there is no recoil when you fire the Revenant in Adrenaline Rush.  Firing in short bursts doesn't really control the spread, all it does is prevent crazy recoil (watch the tracers firing in bursts without AR and then full auto with AR).  Adrenaline Rush fixes that, so you can fire away.

Modifié par mayatola, 12 février 2010 - 11:35 .

[MageofHalo]

I use the Vindicator because it's just so much faster than sniping at every enemy and it's easier to move from one to the next, most games I play I personally prefer precision so that's probably the reason why I used it. When I did use the Revanant I loved it but the precision of the Vindicator is just my prefered style of play, both of them are great guns.

[NeinoRanatos]

Meh, I personally despise the vindicator. I'm the type of person to be charging into the fire fight and spraying fire on the enemy. Revenant lets me keep them behind cover before I set them abalaze with a grenade..followed by death when I obliterate them with even more fire ammo.

I admit its very accurate, but the limit on its bursts ruins it for me, I need the continuous fire. If I wanted to sniper, I'd use the freaking rapid-fire sniper rifle that I love to death.

Modifié par NeinoRanatos, 13 février 2010 - 12:08 .

[VampireCommando]

Revenent fully upgraded is just amazing, enemies die like **** off of a shovel, and it has the most ammo of any weapon and damage per round of any of the assult rifles. In short, dont try and compare the revenant to anything else because it simply outclasses it ^ ^

[VampireCommando]

The_Juggern0tt wrote...

You only get to grab a weapon/weapon training once unfortunately (I to, dreamed of being armed with a Widow and a Revenant). When you reach that point on your 2nd playthrough, it just gets skipped.

I was looking forward to this aswel my friend, i dreamed of my soldier having a revenant, widow and claymore, but alas it was not to be.
*shakes fist angerly up in the air* god damn you bioware for not letting it be ^ ^. However saying that the new DLC shotgun is rather powerful, even if it does a minor ammo issue and look like a fanny pack on your bacl lol

[blank1]

I now refer to my Revenant as "The" Reverend. I thought it had much more style.