192 réponses à ce sujet

[blank1]

... only because the Revenant brings too much rape to even be classified as a gun.



HOLOCAUST DPS

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

Widow for me, if I get an assault rifle like the Revenant that's full auto I want to shoot it full auto.

[sickblaze]

CMD-Shep wrote...

The Vindicator is the most powerful AR in the game, but that power is seriously offset by it's super low ammo capacity and personally, I find the 3 round burst to be a hindrance if you get bum-rushed as it really limits your ability to just pelt your foes with slugs.

The Vindicator is five round burst.

[Deflagratio]

sickblaze wrote...

CMD-Shep wrote...

The Vindicator is the most powerful AR in the game, but that power is seriously offset by it's super low ammo capacity and personally, I find the 3 round burst to be a hindrance if you get bum-rushed as it really limits your ability to just pelt your foes with slugs.

The Vindicator is five round burst.

It says it's a five round bust, but it's only a three-round burst. Likely changed because of balance issues. If it IS a five round burst, then it's magically drawining ammo and invisible slugs, but adding damage.

The only thing I hate about Revenant is the Clown colors. There are no additional versions of the weapons (or even weapon sub-types) so why the hell can't we change color between Avenger Grey, Battle Rifle Brown or Revenant Red!

I havn't tried this yet though, is it possible to get Assault rifle Training in one playthrough on say, a Vanguard, and on a NG+ get a Revenant? I've played through the game 6 times, but NEVER on a NG+.

The Widow is hands and above the WORST weapon in the game.

To qualify that, it's not because it's weak, it's an unstoppable monster, and that's the problem. With Adrenaline Rush or Sniper-slowdown, that gun is just too freakin powerful. It should have had half that Ammo Capacity, used for pegging high-threat targets. But I'm a Blanace ****.

Modifié par Deflagratio, 19 février 2010 - 03:51 .

[tehmoriz]

vindicator for me. deals ridiculous damage and is also very accurate. i modded my game and just get my followers to use the revenant.

[Catfish42]

blank1 wrote...

The Revenant, particularly with the accuracy upgrade, is the inaccurate. You just can't aim or control the recoil correctly.

Also, someone mentioned that the Widow and Vindicator benefits more from Adrenaline Rush than the Revenant... I don't find your logic sound. The Revenant can fire all day long in Adrenaline Rush, with its 100% damage increase, whereas the Vindicator needs to take a .625 second break between bursts. The Widow is an even worse choice for Adrenaline Rush... you can really only line up one shot, then its reload time. The Viper works very well with Adrenaline Rush, though.

With the Widow, squeeze off of headshot in normal mode, then hit your adrenaline hotkey a split second after the reload animation starts. Lets you get off another clean headshot for double damage; with AP bullets you can put down a krogan in about 3 seconds in veteran (game time, not realtime).
I guess for me, it's less about the Revenant being better than the vindicator but rather the Widow surpassing the Viper, and the Vindicator doing approx. the same dps as the light machine gun.

Maybe it's because i came to this from modern warfare 1, but when i shoot someone in the head, i want them to go down immediately (and stay down).

[blank1]

Catfish42 wrote...

blank1 wrote...

The Revenant, particularly with the accuracy upgrade, is the inaccurate. You just can't aim or control the recoil correctly.

Also, someone mentioned that the Widow and Vindicator benefits more from Adrenaline Rush than the Revenant... I don't find your logic sound. The Revenant can fire all day long in Adrenaline Rush, with its 100% damage increase, whereas the Vindicator needs to take a .625 second break between bursts. The Widow is an even worse choice for Adrenaline Rush... you can really only line up one shot, then its reload time. The Viper works very well with Adrenaline Rush, though.

With the Widow, squeeze off of headshot in normal mode, then hit your adrenaline hotkey a split second after the reload animation starts. Lets you get off another clean headshot for double damage; with AP bullets you can put down a krogan in about 3 seconds in veteran (game time, not realtime).
I guess for me, it's less about the Revenant being better than the vindicator but rather the Widow surpassing the Viper, and the Vindicator doing approx. the same dps as the light machine gun.

Maybe it's because i came to this from modern warfare 1, but when i shoot someone in the head, i want them to go down immediately (and stay down).

The only time I can concieve using a Widow that way would be useful, and not total overkill, is on section bosses or YMIRS. Also, using the Widow like that on a run of the mill Krogan is waaay overkill. For all intents and purposes, for the Soldier, the Viper is superior just because of the way Adrenaline Rush works, and because Soldiers will tend to use the Revenant against section bosses and YMIR's anyways.

Regardless, the Revenant is an all around better choice for Soldiers than the Widow. If other classes could get the Revenant, it would be better for them too. It's the highest sustained DPS that's not a heavy weapon in the game, and it has the second highest ammo capactiy. People whine "Inaccuracy!" but, especially after the accuracy upgrade, it's not inaccurate at all -- they are just using the weapon at the wrong range. If you want to stay back and pick things off from a distance, use a sniper. If you want to play aggressive, which usually means you'll be in mid-close range, the Revenant becomes death incarnate.

BTW, test results on Veteran don't count. Insanity is where min/maxing starts to matter... you can do whatever the hell you want in Veteran and come out just fine. Hell, you can do whatever you want in Insanity, if you have a lot of time on your hands, and manage to beat the game. But, if you're looking for maximum efficiency, which admittedly isn't everyone's idea of enjoying a game, the Revenant wins over the Widow, and all the other AR's.

Modifié par blank1, 19 février 2010 - 05:26 .

[RamsenC]

blank1 wrote...

Regardless, the Revenant is an all around better choice for Soldiers than the Widow. If other classes could get the Revenant, it would be better for them too. It's the highest sustained DPS that's not a heavy weapon in the game, and it has the second highest ammo capactiy. People whine "Inaccuracy!" but, especially after the accuracy upgrade, it's not inaccurate at all -- they are just using the weapon at the wrong range. If you want to stay back and pick things off from a distance, use a sniper. If you want to play aggressive, which usually means you'll be in mid-close range, the Revenant becomes death incarnate.

If other classes could get the Revenant they would have a much harder time dealing with the recoil. Soldier gets all that recoil removed when in adrenaline rush, while all the other classes have to deal with it. Would still be great at close range, but I wouldn't be so fast to rank it above the Vindicator on the other classes. Also Claymore does more dps than the Revenant

[notphrog]

Vindicator. nothing drops baddies faster than three high-powered shots to the face over and over.



Except the Widow...

[themaxzero]

Gabeker wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

Jaegerbane:

The Geth Pulse Rifle isn't actually bad - it's just weird. Until you get a Revenant option, the Geth Rifle, I find, is the best weapon to take against Geth because they have relatively larger increments of their HP in Shields than in Health, and GPR strips Shields and Barriers the best of the standard ARs.

Also, if you're planning to use power combos by asking your mates to stand somewhere safe and just use their powers, you can strip Shields and Barriers best with GPR, then kill with Warp Explosion or something similar. Even against Blue Suns, it may be best to take a GPR along, then finish off undefended enemies with a sniper rifle or a pistol. It's all about specialization and specs.

For instance, you can arm your GPR with Disruptor ammo - this allows you to strip Shields ridiculously fast. Strip consecutive enemies with your AR, then Concussive Blast them down, then pull out your Shotgun with AP Ammo (or even Shredder!) and close in for the kill. You can even use a Predator with AP or Shredder Ammo for finishing off organics.

I found Shredder to be not so bad, actually. It's true that it only works on organics. However, it's also true that you will almost never be shifting out of Disruptor Ammo against synthetics anyways. It's a slightly different focus and you'll be slightly weaker against LOKI Mechs, but it's not like they're hard to take out anyway.

Also, all classes eventually can acquire access to the GPR.  It is a compelling acquisition for the Adept especially, as the class has a built-in lack of options against Shields.  It's a little redundant with Tempest, but it is a better gun than the Tempest at longer ranges, and you can switch out between them for ammo switches.

Well unless the bonuses stated for the weapon are larger then stated in the Dev numbers post the math, and practice, don't support the shield stripping theory.

The amount of damage done to the shield/barrier/armor is based off the base damage/dps.  The base damage for the geth pulse rifle is 3.7.  Even with relative large bonuses and its high ROF its still pathetic compared to any of the other AR weapons. 

To be honest I don't trust those datamined numbers on the GPR or they are missing something. Based on weapon hits and rate of fire they Avenger should kill more then twice as fast as the GPR.

Yet it does not.

Maybe it has multiple impacts per shot or has some other unique mechanic.

My advice would be to test the GPR against the other ARs for yourself. This is one of the few instances where I do not think the datamined numbers tell the whole story.

[implodinggoat]

Here is the Weaponry Comparison page off of the Mass Effect Wiki.

http://masseffect.wi...onry_Comparison

As you will notice the Revenant does roughly 204 damage per second compared to the Vindicator's 145.  However the accuracy of the Vindicator allows you to land in excess of 90% headshots which adds a X2 multiplier that raises the Vindicator damage per second to 290.   On the other hand the innacuracy of the Revenant will most likely limit you to delivering  about 30% headshots.

So then for the Revenant the average DPS adjusted for headshots would be (204 X 7) + (408 X 3) divided by 10 which works out to an average of  265 DPS.

For the Vindicator the average DPS adjusted for headshots would be (145) + (290 X 9) divided by 10 which works out to an average of  276 DPS.  Add to this the fact that the effect of the headshot damage can be enhanced an additional 10% by use of the Kuwashi Visor and the Vindicator definately comes out on top most of the time; but not always.

Neither gun is superior in every situation since the percentage of headshots you're able to land depends on your aiming skill, the distance to the target and the pace of the combat.  For example if you're engaging Mercs, Collectors, Geth, or Mechs (excluding the FENRIS Mech) then the VIndicator is superior since those enemies either use defensive tactics or advance upon you slowly.  The Revenant on the other hand is superior for enemies who its difficult or impossible to score a headshot on like Scions, swarms of charging melee combatants such as Husks or Varren, or anything that doesn't recquire accuracy since its as big as the broad side of a barn such as Praetorians.   Additionally the Revenant is better than the Vindicator in close quarters where the Revenant's low accuracy is less of an issue.  So then the Vindicator is superior against the most common enemies in the game such as Mercs and Collectors; while the Revenant is superior against just about everything else. 

I prefer the Vindicator; but I do have to grant the Revenant a few nods.  In particular I have to sing the praises of the Revenant for dealing with Husks on Insanity (particularly in the Reaper IFF mission) since they advance so quickly that you don't have time to line up accurate shots; but you can always point the Revenant in their direction and just keep firing at anything that moves.  Its also probably more fun to use than any other gun in the game and consequently it just feels more powerful than the Vindicator.  Additionally if you're aim isn't that great the Revenant is the way to go since it works best when you just aim for the torso and unload until your target drops, while the Vindicator's limited ammo demands a high level of accuracy and a high hit percentage.

On the other hand if you enjoy going for the headshot every time then the Vindicator is your baby.  Plus the Vindicator has one huge advantage over the Revenant, namely you can have it and still pick the Widow Sniper Rifle which is an absolute beast of a weapon.  To me that alone settles it since the Revenant is at best slighly better than the Vindicator while the Widow is vastly superior to any other Sniper Rifle.   Just consider this,  the Widow does 370 damage a shot,  740 per headshot, and 1480 for a headshot with the 2X damage multiplier Adrenaline rush gives you.  That is fierce as hell.

Really I just wish we didn't have to choose.  There simply aren't enough guns in this game to begin with to force players to choose only one of the three most powerful guns in the game.  Hopefully they'll be some DLC down the line which will give a mission or some other means of getting our hands on all three simultaneously.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 19 février 2010 - 08:06 .

[Roxlimn]

themaxzero:



We actually tested the GPR against the Vindicator in-game with no ammo modification against Barrier on a standard mook. The Vindicator is the more effective weapon, provided that you hit the target with most of the Vindicator shots. It's easier to miss the target with Vindicator shots because it's a burst weapon and there's significant travel time with the bullets. Nevertheless, if the bullets actually hit, the Vindicator is the more effective weapon (with the usual caveats). I haven't tested it with Disruptor or Warp Ammo.

[Arde5643]

1-2 burst from vindicator with cyro blast from mordin is usually a death sentence.

If you're good with aiming, a burst headshot on an enemy being cyro'd either insta-kills them or close to death.



Plus, the vindicator also does a damn good job of destroying enemy armor.



For the charging melee enemies though, avenger or the insanely upgraded avenger (revenant) is much better.

[themaxzero]

Roxlimn wrote...

themaxzero:

We actually tested the GPR against the Vindicator in-game with no ammo modification against Barrier on a standard mook. The Vindicator is the more effective weapon, provided that you hit the target with most of the Vindicator shots. It's easier to miss the target with Vindicator shots because it's a burst weapon and there's significant travel time with the bullets. Nevertheless, if the bullets actually hit, the Vindicator is the more effective weapon (with the usual caveats). I haven't tested it with Disruptor or Warp Ammo.

Fair enough but according to the stats on the Wiki the Vindicator is roughly 4 times better (145 v 38). The GPR does not do 38 DPS base.

Hence why I ask for tests.

Modifié par themaxzero, 19 février 2010 - 10:14 .

[Roxlimn]

It's not 4 times better, definitely. Damage over time against Barriers and Shields is superior for Vindicator if you hit with all three shots, but it's easier to miss all three shots due to the way the Vindicator fires. If you're a bad shot, the GPR may actually be a better deal because the bullet spray means that you're more likely to hit SOME of the time, at least.

[WillieStyle]

As you will notice the Revenant does roughly 204 damage per second compared to the Vindicator's 145. However the accuracy of the Vindicator allows you to land in excess of 90% headshots which adds a X2 multiplier that raises the Vindicator damage per second to 290. On the other hand the innacuracy of the Revenant will most likely limit you to delivering about 30% headshots.

So then for the Revenant the average DPS adjusted for headshots would be (204 X 7) + (408 X 3) divided by 10 which works out to an average of 265 DPS.

For the Vindicator the average DPS adjusted for headshots would be (145) + (290 X 9) divided by 10 which works out to an average of 276 DPS. Add to this the fact that the effect of the headshot damage can be enhanced an additional 10% by use of the Kuwashi Visor and the Vindicator definately comes out on top most of the time; but not always.

Haha. You just pulled those 30 and 90% figures out of... nowhere.
If you had used 40% and 90% instead, the Revenenant would come out ahead.

Also, the +100% headshot damage is additive. It only doubles your damage if you have no ther bonuses. The more bonuses you do have, the less significant the headshot bonus becomes. On the other hand, base weapon dps is affected by EVERYTHING. Ammo bonuses, headshot bonsus, class skill bonuses you name it.
Let's assume a character has the following bonuses:
+70% Tungsten ammo
+15% class skill
+50% weapon upgrades
Now let's also assume the Vindicator lands 90% of its shots as headshots, while the Revenant only lands 30% of its shots as headshots.
The Vindicator's dps will be: 145*(1+ 0.7 + 0.15 + 0.5 + 0.9) = 471.25.
The Revenant's dps will be: 204*(1 + 0.7 + 0.15 + 0.5 + 0.3) = 540.60.
The Revenant wins hands down even if you land 90% headshots with the Vindicator and only 30% with the Revenant.
And keep in mind, the damage bonuses I listed were a little conservative. I didn't include Miranda's +15% damage bonus. I didn't include the 3% damage bonus from the default N7 armor. I didn't include the extra ~10% bonus Tungsten ammo would give you because of Power damage bonuses. The more bonuses you stack, the better the Revenant gets.
Oh, and let's not forget, the Revenant gets a bigger bonus against armor than the Vindicator, while getting the same bonus to barriers/shields.

TLDR: Revenant dps > Vindicator dps even after you factor in accuracy/headshots. And the more you upgrade both weapons, the more the Revenant pulls ahead of the Vindicator.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 19 février 2010 - 10:30 .

[themaxzero]

Roxlimn wrote...

It's not 4 times better, definitely. Damage over time against Barriers and Shields is superior for Vindicator if you hit with all three shots, but it's easier to miss all three shots due to the way the Vindicator fires. If you're a bad shot, the GPR may actually be a better deal because the bullet spray means that you're more likely to hit SOME of the time, at least.

Oh i'm not saying the GPR is the best weapon i'm just asking why are the datamined numbers for the GPR so out of whack?

[WillieStyle]

Just consider this, the Widow does 370 damage a shot, 740 per headshot, and 1480 for a headshot with the 2X damage multiplier Adrenaline rush gives you.

That isn't how damage bonuses work in this game.

Headshots grant a +100% damage bonus.

Adrenaline Rush grants a +100% damage bonus.

So a headshot while using adrenaline rush will do X*(1+1+1) = 3X damage. NOT 4X.

So if the Widow does 370 base damage per shot, a headshot with Adrenaline Rush will do 1110 damage per shot. Impressive, but not quite as high as 1480.



In anycase, the Revenant does more damage per second than the Widow AND more damage per "thermal Clip" than the Widow. Unless you're consistently Headshotting enemies with no Barriers or Shields, the Revenenat is likely better dps than the Widow.

[Koomaa]

themaxzero wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

It's not 4 times better, definitely. Damage over time against Barriers and Shields is superior for Vindicator if you hit with all three shots, but it's easier to miss all three shots due to the way the Vindicator fires. If you're a bad shot, the GPR may actually be a better deal because the bullet spray means that you're more likely to hit SOME of the time, at least.

Oh i'm not saying the GPR is the best weapon i'm just asking why are the datamined numbers for the GPR so out of whack?

I believe its also something to do with the rate of fire but i could be wrong

[Roxlimn]

themaxzero:



Don't know. It may be because they're just extrapolating the numbers. Actually, I've got a tiny, negligible experience with game design and coding - strictly school stuff, so many years before. Having the code data doesn't mean that you know how it performs in-game. That is why games are beta-tested.



The only way to know for sure how all the factors interact in-game is to see how the game performs in real-time (if it's a real-time game). The Geth Rifle may have a damage/bullet that's 1/4 that of the Vindicator, but its greater fire rate and possibly a hidden vs. Shield or vs. Barrier bonus means that the performance is comparable to Vindicator for Barriers and Shields. That's what I observed in the sample test, anyway. If you're accurate with the shots, the Vindicator still does more damage, but it's not that big of a difference.

[themaxzero]

Roxlimn wrote...

themaxzero:

Don't know. It may be because they're just extrapolating the numbers. Actually, I've got a tiny, negligible experience with game design and coding - strictly school stuff, so many years before. Having the code data doesn't mean that you know how it performs in-game. That is why games are beta-tested.

The only way to know for sure how all the factors interact in-game is to see how the game performs in real-time (if it's a real-time game). The Geth Rifle may have a damage/bullet that's 1/4 that of the Vindicator, but its greater fire rate and possibly a hidden vs. Shield or vs. Barrier bonus means that the performance is comparable to Vindicator for Barriers and Shields. That's what I observed in the sample test, anyway. If you're accurate with the shots, the Vindicator still does more damage, but it's not that big of a difference.

Even if you compared it to the Avenger (easier to compare then Vindicator) it looks miles behined (38 v 100) yet it does not look like that in game.

It must have some hidden bonus.

[WillieStyle]

The RoF of the Geth Pulse Rifle is almost certainly off.
My guess: it's the same issue with Shotguns.
If you read the Coalesced.ini file, it says Shotguns fire 4 pellets per shot. And if you look in game, it sure looks like they fire 4 pellets per shot. But Cristina Norman told us that the game engine actually calculates damage for 8 pellets. They only render 4 so as to not task your graphics card too much.
I'm 90% sure the same issure arises for the Geth Pulse Rifle. Its rate of fire is listed as 1,000 RPM. But its codex talks about a variable rate of fire. I suspect that the GPR's mean RoF is actually higher than 1,000 RPM but only 1,000 shots per minute are "rendered" so as not to require too much graphics overhead. If it's dps is only slightly lower than that of the Revenant Vindicator, then its average RoF is likely as high as 3,500 RPM.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 19 février 2010 - 11:28 .

[Roxlimn]

Oh, it's definitely lower than that of a Revenant, no contest. It's not even slightly - it's markedly lower.

[WillieStyle]

Oops. Sorry about that. I meant Vindicator.