290 réponses à ce sujet

[schristofferson]

This game was fantastic, but the main plot is heading off a cliff.  The whole premise that the Reapers need "processed" humans to reproduce is absurd.  The plot implies that human genetic material is what's really needed, and not the assorted fat, protein, connective tissue, and other material you could pick up from any living organism.  But there are far easier ways to gather human DNA than abducting millions
of colonists, which, by the way, is a great way to draw the wrath of
the collected species (who just killed one of you). 

For instance, I believe the C-Sec officer that helps you with Thane's loyalty mission (voiced by Colonel Tigh) noted that you could get DNA from a flake of human skin.  So by just walking around the Citadel with a Dustbuster you should be able to collect all the DNA you want under the guise of keeping things tidy.  Or, if you wanted to be more selective, you could target humanity's elite instead of picking up the dregs who are sent out to found colonies in the Terminus systems.

It's a shame that the setup of Mass Effect 1 was largely wasted in this game.  It was interesting when the Reapers' motiviation was a mystery, but this resolution of the mystery is just plain lame.  Hopefully, Mass Effect 3 will forget this part of the story ever happened and come up with a better premise for the final game.  Given all the time Bioware had to think about this plot since the release of Mass Effect 1, what they came up with was disappointing.

[Internet Kraken]

schristofferson wrote...
-snip-

But see this is why I think the Reapers do this for cultural purposes. There are far easier ways to produce genetic material. If that was all they wanted, they wouldn't even need to let life achieve sentience.

[Lumiya03]

damn i never thought of it that way schristoff! YOU ARE SO RIGHT! that is absurd. Now that you mention it...So are the asari, so is shepard comming back from being dead, The whole idea behind the genophage can be absurd too...oh wait a second this is sci fi FICTION...Not reality. Also the game mentions they had collected thousands of colonists and was no where near done, which to my understanding is, the hoover vaccum theory you had wouldn't quite get them enough of what they needed. if they have FULL concentrated human bodies and still are far off. Too bad the wrath of our collected species didn't happen! did you play ME2? it was actually the wrath of just shepard and co. nice try though. care to find some imagination somewhere in your intelligent human brain? Or do you just feel like disproving all science fiction backstory with actual science? If so we can start talking about star wars and lightsabers or star trek and phasers.

basically in media like this there is a small amount of reality ignorance.

edit:some bad punctuation lol

Modifié par Lumiya03, 08 février 2010 - 11:40 .

[Revan312]

Internet Kraken wrote...
*snip*

Interesting theory, I could see this being a possibility, although, I still hold my opinion that Bioware went in a ridiculous direction with the last boss.  Your thoughts on their motivations seem perfectly logical but they're still just theories. After this ending it's now clear that Bioware is simply writing as they go and though your explanation would be a cool one, we have no idea if this is the case. 

Bioware might write that the reapers just don't know how to make more of themselves without organics or that the human reaper was just a plan to assualt the citadel.  We don't know what they're planning at this point, I'm just arguing that their explanation of the events within the game and the ultimate "twist" ending were poorly thought out.  If they would have had a scene where Shepard talks to the Collector leader and all of what you said was explained then I wouldn't have near the problem with it, instead we were given a half baked description of what the collectors were doing, destroyed a giant terminator and then watched a bunch of reapers wake up. Nothing was explained and since the collectors are now gone, we'll probobly never understand the reasoning behind their "project" unless a reaper explains it to shepard in ME3.

As I said, there was many ways of going about the ending that would have felt much more complete and logical.  I still feel that the last fight was there simply to be the last giant fight. It held no weight to me.  If the ending was just shepard defeating the collector leader and destroying the base without understanding their true motivations I would have been happy, there would have been many questions, but those could be answered in the final game.  Instead they threw a giant robot at us and ended the game.  It just felt misplaced and out of character for the universe and put me off. 

Even if ME3 explains all of this without it sounding ludicrous I'll still think this ending was beyond the pale.  Nothing ruins a mood more than fighting a giant skeleton robot mutant when there was no need for such a fight...

[schristofferson]

Lumiya03 wrote...

damn i never thought of it that way schristoff! YOU ARE SO RIGHT! that is absurd. Now that you mention it...So are the asari, so is shepard comming back from being dead, The whole idea behind the genophage can be absurd too...oh wait a second this is sci fi FICTION...Not reality. Also the game mentions they had collected thousands of colonists and was no where near done, which to my understanding is, the hoover vaccum theory you had wouldn't quite get them enough of what they needed. if they have FULL concentrated human bodies and still are far off. Too bad the wrath of our collected species didn't happen! did you play ME2? it was actually the wrath of just shepard and co. nice try though. care to find some imagination somewhere in your intelligent human brain? Or do you just feel like disproving all science fiction backstory with actual science? If so we can start talking about star wars and lightsabers or star trek and phasers.

basically in media like this there is a small amount of reality ignorance.

edit:some bad punctuation lol

I've played through ME2 twice.  I'm on my third playthrough now.  Don't get me wrong, I love this game.

I guess it depends where you come down on how science fiction should use actual science.  I think Bioware did a commendable job with much of its backstory.  Casey Hudson noted that his team spent some time learning about the real scientific concept of dark energy and tried to incorporate it into the Mass Effect universe in an intelligent way.  Scientific American even did a story about it. 

But it felt like they didn't spend enough time thinking about the main arc of the plot.  "Okay, human colonies are going missing.  Shepard has to Fight for the Lost.  Yeah, that's a good marketing tag line." "Okay, why are the humans being taken?"  "Err...because the Reapers need to grind millions of humans into goo so they can make a new human Reaper."

For a game that did such a nice job with science overall (and the Codex shows how much they care), the dissolving of humans seems like a space horror gimmick added without any thought.  

[Rubicon83]

schristofferson wrote...

This game was fantastic, but the main plot is heading off a cliff.  The whole premise that the Reapers need "processed" humans to reproduce is absurd.  The plot implies that human genetic material is what's really needed, and not the assorted fat, protein, connective tissue, and other material you could pick up from any living organism.  But there are far easier ways to gather human DNA than abducting millions
of colonists, which, by the way, is a great way to draw the wrath of
the collected species (who just killed one of you). 

For instance, I believe the C-Sec officer that helps you with Thane's loyalty mission (voiced by Colonel Tigh) noted that you could get DNA from a flake of human skin.  So by just walking around the Citadel with a Dustbuster you should be able to collect all the DNA you want under the guise of keeping things tidy.  Or, if you wanted to be more selective, you could target humanity's elite instead of picking up the dregs who are sent out to found colonies in the Terminus systems.

It's a shame that the setup of Mass Effect 1 was largely wasted in this game.  It was interesting when the Reapers' motiviation was a mystery, but this resolution of the mystery is just plain lame.  Hopefully, Mass Effect 3 will forget this part of the story ever happened and come up with a better premise for the final game.  Given all the time Bioware had to think about this plot since the release of Mass Effect 1, what they came up with was disappointing.

I find myself agreeing with you. The story and ending for Mass Effect 1 was seriously off-the-hook awesome. That was probably also one of its downsides, seeing as it was made impossible to top by the sequel in epicness.
ME 2 wasn't really as epic; it was more a "behind-the-scenes" sort of adventure. Neither the council or the alliance gives a **** about what you are up to; unless it involves mistrust about Shepard working for Cerberus.
Storywise; I get confused. The Reapers are dependant on organics to reproduce, but they themselves call us "a mutation; an accident" and thus supposedly beneath them; not even worthy to exist.
And yet, they are born out of human genetic material (the latest of them, anyway) and ... it all just seems so strange and anti-climactic to me..

Tell you one thing; at the very least it made the Reapers feel a lot less like the doomsday-gods they have been built up to be, since the first game. Gods aren't Frankensteins; they are supposed to be beyond us.

Modifié par Rubicon83, 09 février 2010 - 12:32 .

[Lumiya03]

not to flame you or anything Rubicon, just to be clear. You Think that the Reapers Just want organic life to use it's technology and advance the organics along an evolutionary path so they can come and wipe them out...just for fun?

IMO that makes less sense than the "anti-climactic" explanation bioware gave us.

edit:oh forgot to add...Bioware did say this was like Empire strikes back from star wars. which IF for some reason no one has watched the trilogy...ESB was not as epic in scope/action as the first or third movies in that trilogy but is still an awesome part of the trilogy.

Modifié par Lumiya03, 09 février 2010 - 12:34 .

[Rubicon83]

Lumiya03 wrote...

not to flame you or anything Rubicon, just to be clear. You Think that the Reapers Just want organic life to use it's technology and advance the organics along an evolutionary path so they can come and wipe them out...just for fun?

IMO that makes less sense than the "anti-climactic" explanation bioware gave us.

They're supposed to be god-like, remember? Their reasons are unfathomable to us. Or should be, anyway. They do things for reasons we couldn't possibly hope to understand.
That's what gods do. If they kick your ass, they do it "in mysterious ways".

I would at least by into that  more than this organic-caretaker crap

[BlackwindTheCommander]

I kinda have a feeling it wasn't finished yet. Something about the whole larvae stage dialogue or whatever kind made me think so.

[TuringPoint]

My theory about the Reaper looking human is that it was only partially done. Additional layers, once the Reaper was complete, would make it shaped like a space ship. Considering how big Sovereign was, the human Reaper was not as big as Sovereign.



In the final credits, each Reaper looks about the same - but just slightly different. Same general shape, slightly different configuration of "limbs".

[BattleVisor]

The human reaper was instrumental in infiltrating the citadel relay, to gather the reapers.



I quote from Harbinger saying to collector General



'You have failed, we will find another way'



TBH Human reapers make sense to me, Sovereign their primary vanguard is destoryed, they tried to make another one with the available resources.

[BlackwindTheCommander]

Alocormin wrote...

My theory about the Reaper looking human is that it was only partially done. Additional layers, once the Reaper was complete, would make it shaped like a space ship. Considering how big Sovereign was, the human Reaper was not as big as Sovereign.

In the final credits, each Reaper looks about the same - but just slightly different. Same general shape, slightly different configuration of "limbs".

That was what I figured.

[Lumiya03]

Rubicon83 wrote...

Lumiya03 wrote...

not to flame you or anything Rubicon, just to be clear. You Think that the Reapers Just want organic life to use it's technology and advance the organics along an evolutionary path so they can come and wipe them out...just for fun?

IMO that makes less sense than the "anti-climactic" explanation bioware gave us.

They're supposed to be god-like, remember? Their reasons are unfathomable to us. Or should be, anyway. They do things for reasons we couldn't possibly hope to understand.
That's what gods do. If they kick your ass, they do it "in mysterious ways".

I would at least by into that  more than this organic-caretaker crap

Touche. I concede that point to you

my only response is, Hopefully they do some damn good explaining in ME3

[Internet Kraken]

Rubicon83 wrote...
The Reapers are dependant on organics to reproduce, but they themselves call us "a mutation; an accident" and thus supposedly beneath them; not even worthy to exist.

You know maybe Soveriegn's opinion on organic life is not universaly held by the other Reapers. So far we've only heard dialogue from Soveriegn and Harbinger, and we can tell that both of them have different opinions on organic life. Whether this is becuase Reapers have more indivduality than we think or simply because humans managed to kill Soveriegn is not clear. But it may be something to consider.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 09 février 2010 - 12:47 .

[Tahleron1]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Made complete sense to me. Why wouldn't they model a new reaper on the one race to ever kick their butts? It both punishes the race for it's audacity and freaks out the survivors when it comes for them.

I doubt it's punishment, the intention seems to be about preserving the galaxy, their whole comment about organics not understanding their thinking, is that they can't see past their own noses.

But at the same time, they seem to want to preserve the best traits of the races they "assimilate" to further their own.

[Rubicon83]

Lumiya03 wrote...

Touche. I concede that point to you

my only response is, Hopefully they do some damn good explaining in ME3

Why, thank you ^^ nice sparring with you too.
And yes, ME 3 better have some good explanations, otherwise.. here's lookin at one confused dude ^^

[XenogearsOwnsAll]

Internet Kraken wrote...

Revan312 wrote...

-snip-

I think you're just looking at this in a different way. You think that the Reapers are trying to make another Reaper for military purposes. I disagree. I think they are not trying to make just a Human Reaper for cultural reasons.

Many people ahve wondered why the Reapers constantly allow civilizations to build itself up, only to swiftly destroy it. There are many theories as to why. You could think that the Reapers are just using oprganics as a food source, but arguably there are easier ways to cultivate and substain organic food than allowing civilizations to contstantly evolve and then fall. Rather I think they do it becuase the Reaper's culture involves preserving the most avdanced and valuable species for eternity as Reapers. Reapers are not one single species, but rather a combination of all species ascended into a higher form of life. The best the galaxy has ever produced, all united under one banner.

The Reapers were not just trying to build any odrinary Reaper. They wanted to build a Human Reaper. Not to lead a massive attack against the Citadel, but rather becuase this is the Reaper's culture. They believe Humans are the species with the greatest potential. If they were just trying to build a generic Reaper, they could have used any species. Arguably it would be a lot easier to target soemthing other than human colonies. But they specificaly wanted to turn humans into the Reapers. Think about Harbinger's dialogue. He refers to the process of turning humans into genetic paste to fuel the larva's growth as "ascension". Why use that word in particular? Why not call it "assimilation"? Or "consumption"? "Ascension" implies that they are raising humans to be what they consider to be a higher form of life. They see value in humans.

But what about Sovereign? He didn't seem to like organics at all. Why turn them into Reapers. Well I believe that the Reapers may have considered the current organic "crop" to be a failure, not worthy of being turned into Reapers. This could be for a number of reasons. I think it's because the galaxy had a very diverse catagory of sentient lifeforms, with no one species apppearing to be dominant. The Protheans appeared to be the undiupted rulers of the galaxy at the time of their downfall. This is the Reapers idea of the perfect organic race to harvest. One species that follows their predetermined line of technological advancement, rather than a handful of species that all do so at the same time. So the Reapers were all set to just wipe every race out and start from scratch. What changed this? Well humans killed a Reaper. The game often alludes to the idea that by killing a Reaper, we grabbed their attention. To delay the extinction cycle and kill a powerful Reaper in the process would probably interest them. So Harbinger now thinks that humans are worthy of ascension into the ultimate life form.

If you're wondering why they didn't do this to the Protheans, it's becuase the Prothean Reaper failed. Instead they turned them into the Collectors, so that they would still serve a purpose.

In short; Reapers wanted to create a Human Reaper for cultural reasons, not military strength.

Yeah, but even if it IS a cultural thing they still would have wiped out the rest of the organics in the galaxy, and to finish doing this in some reasonable timeframe they would need to open the Citadel and let the armada through.  Thus, they needed a new Vanguard (the Human Reaper).  

As for the attack plan...I dunno.  I assume they'd have to find a way to get the Collectors into the Citadel before the arms can close.  Indoctrinated humans, perhaps?  Who knows.  The important thing is that by destroying the Collectors and the Human Reaper, you have taken out the only known link between the Reapers and the galaxy.  I'm assuming they have a plan C, but that it is either extremely risky or leaves them at a big disadvantage (i.e. overloading that star with dark energy and trying to pass through the resulting wormhole, losing half their fleet in the process...or just flying the whole way, giving the galaxy years to prepare a defense, using all of their fuel and arriving without sheild capability)

Modifié par XenogearsOwnsAll, 09 février 2010 - 12:55 .

[Tahleron1]

Internet Kraken wrote...

Rubicon83 wrote...
The Reapers are dependant on organics to reproduce, but they themselves call us "a mutation; an accident" and thus supposedly beneath them; not even worthy to exist.

You know maybe Soveriegn's opinion on organic life is not universaly held by the other Reapers. So far we've only heard dialogue from Soveriegn and Harbinger, and we can tell that both of them have different opinions on organic life. Whether this is becuase Reapers have more indivduality than we think or simply because humans managed to kill Soveriegn is not clear. But it may be something to consider.

My guess would be, They have the accumulated perspective of the specie they are created from, which would explain the desire for Shepard as they probably consider him/her the epitome of the human species.

[Purgex360a]

I'm sure people have already told you this but let me remind you. The reapers change into the species that they are attempting to conquer. I didn't like the final boss fight either, I didn't feel like I was fighting a super-powerful human-reaper. Mass Effect 2 follows in Bioshock's footsteps, a beautiful and powerful game that is ruined by a horrific final-boss fight.

[austin144]

Bentenjamin i was thing the same thing

[austin144]

Bentenjamin i was thinking the same thing

[CDClock]

The problem was that in Mass Effect, the story came together in such a beautiful and awesome way. In ME2, I don't feel like it came together at all. The story just kind of abruptly ends with little to no explanation. It also answers the question of WHAT the Reapers are and what theyre doing in a terrible way.

[Mondo47]

I've got to admit, I did do a head/desk when I saw it... it was like an end-of-game boss had escaped from R-Type or some other retro sideways-scroller. It wasn't too big a deal, though. Still ended up as scrap metal

[jawlz]

This is a reaper larva. Larva and the end product often look incredibly different. Look at caterpillars and butterflies. All members of the Lepidoptera order, and almost all of them turn into winged insects that look roughly alike structurally, but have larva that can look incredibly different.


All end up in a form that ends up as variations on this:



But the larval form of that thing can be this:



or this



or this



or this



-------

The structure and looks of the larva can have a great deal to do with the result after metamorphasis, or very little. I don't see why it is necessary to think that a human-reaper larva would automatically grow into a giant flying T-800.

Modifié par jawlz, 09 février 2010 - 11:20 .

[Gar_Logan]

The only problem I had with the last boss...was that he was a boss. I'm totally fine with him looking humanish. He wasn't done yet. The biggest part that killed it for me...I mean, you shoot his...well, those tank things feeding him the human goo, and he falls. And then he's like, "I'M ALIVE!" Pops up and acts COMPLETELY like a boss in some random arcade game. Complete with him going into cover and giving you that one more chance to shoot his stupid eye before he goes under the platform. Completely pointless.



I would have much preferred a Harbinger chat instead. Akin to what Saren and Shepard had in ME1. And then you kill the Harbinger proxy and get the hell out. At least ME2 would have kept some of it's dignity in the end.