103 réponses à ce sujet

[Majpain007]

x895771 wrote...

ME1s overheating mechanic was stupid as all hell, you could blind fire all over the place and just stick to cover for a bit longer to cooldown, then blind fire again. ME2 forces you to play better, you need to make your shots count because ammo is scarce and each weapon has its purpose.

For example Infiltrator uses sniper for longer ranges and heavy targets, SMG for close quarters fire-fights and the pistol as an in between weapon or used for light patrols.

IN ME1 you never put down your primary weapon and just spam fired it. DUMB!

Especially since you could put some mods in the AR and it could never overheat.

[Kuari999]

Honestly, I think they should have had clips, but be able to get a clip that does the standard cooling, maybe slower than the previous game, as an upgrade for when you run out of ammo, but that's just me.

[It IS Lupus]

Majpain007 wrote...

x895771 wrote...

ME1s overheating mechanic was stupid as all hell, you could blind fire all over the place and just stick to cover for a bit longer to cooldown, then blind fire again. ME2 forces you to play better, you need to make your shots count because ammo is scarce and each weapon has its purpose.

For example Infiltrator uses sniper for longer ranges and heavy targets, SMG for close quarters fire-fights and the pistol as an in between weapon or used for light patrols.

IN ME1 you never put down your primary weapon and just spam fired it. DUMB!

Especially since you could put some mods in the AR and it could never overheat.

That is what i'm talkin bout, and saying ME2 was made for Spray and praying BS. Double tap thats all i have to say.

[It IS Lupus]

Kuari999 wrote...

Honestly, I think they should have had clips, but be able to get a clip that does the standard cooling, maybe slower than the previous game, as an upgrade for when you run out of ammo, but that's just me.

That would have been a nice Middle. And i could have dealt with that, I mean set number of rounds per clip, ability to raise that by.....25% per clip and having like 10 clips that cooled off while not in combat/ while using a seprate weapon.

[aaniadyen]

Anyone else love how Bioware actually tries to give logical explanations when they change in-game mechanics instead of just yelling "Space magic!"?

[Majpain007]

aaniadyen wrote...

Anyone else love how Bioware actually tries to give logical explanations when they change in-game mechanics instead of just yelling "Space magic!"?

Faster gameplay.....

Honestly ignore the "ammo count" and replace the Thermal clip when the ammo is exhausted.

The way they should have handled it was you can't replace the thermal clip until it was no good. Also have the current clip slowly cool down so you can re use it but have the option to swap it out if you fire off to many shots.

[jimmyjoefro]

Still don't understand why guns don't fire at all without thermal clips. I would think they were there to simply minimize overheating or cool a weapon down faster.

[asaiasai]

Look in ME i used a sniper primarily and i had 2 shots bang bang to over heat. I could get one more bang bang bang to overheat with upgrades. In ME2 i can send as many down range as i want to with no penalty as i can just scrounge up more clips. There was/is no motivation to make each bullet count. In ME every bullet that left the gun had to count or you are hiding with a hot and useless weapon.



for example



Geth trooper hiding behind a box, i can see a little of his arm out of cover in ME i had to wait for a clear shot preferably a head shot, in ME2 i can just shoot a few rounds hoping to flush him with no worries.



The ME2 appeals to the lowest common denominator, the spray and pray crowd. I never could in ME just run around with spray and pray i had to wait for a clean shot, in ME2 there is NO such condition. I can run around with my trigger tapped down more so in ME2 with the propensity of clips, no heat build up than i ever could in ME.



I never had an overheating problem in ME (I learned to manage heat) and i got alot of work from one bullet. I do not have problems in ME2 either because i hit what i aim at. It takes less skill to use the ME2 system because if you miss with the first it is ok because you have more in any quantity you want to use. The system in ME2 is a considerable step backwards in skill requirements.



I will go on record and say that those of you who like to ammo system in ME2 (and yes it is an ammo system just because they call them heat sinks as opposed to round still does not change that) should have it, i want the old system back and while i support you i would hope that you would be willing to support me, and maybe just maybe Bioware will give us both what we want in a game play setting.



Asai

[Statulos]

asaiasai wrote...
Scrounging around the battlefield looking for any clips that might have been dropped, as opposed to killing what needed killing and moving on to the next area hmmmm. Does not sound like faster gameplay. They added the thermal clips because people wanted the typical spray and pray nonsence that plagues so many shooters today. Heat clips from the Geth are interchangable with Alliance ,Turian, Asari weapons? What a load of crap. What did all the factions get together in a room and decide to make clips all interchangable? The heat sink mechanic is here to satisfy the lowest common denominator who wants to spray and pray.

You know, in the present world a British L86, a US M16, a German G36, a French FAMAS or a Norwegian HK 416 or a Belgian FN 2000 shoot a 5,56 bullet!

It´s amazing how what you blame on being weird actually happens in the present world!

[jimmyjoefro]

Present world. ME is like 170 years in the future with the added bonus of a 200 year leap in technology.

[x895771]

Firing liberally with your weapon IS THE REASON you have to scrounge for ammo and end up running out all the time. If you take care to make sure every round counts, then you will find that you won't be scavenging all the time.



Sure, in ME1 you where left with a hot and useless weapon(and honestly I concentrated on stopping power for my sniper rifle, It was a 1-shot, use it or loose it, design), but that's where powers came in, that's where you choice in squadmates mattered, and as an infiltrator you shouldn't be close range to your target to begin with, if you are, then switch to a close range weapon.

[asaiasai]

Statulos wrote...

asaiasai wrote...
Scrounging around the battlefield looking for any clips that might have been dropped, as opposed to killing what needed killing and moving on to the next area hmmmm. Does not sound like faster gameplay. They added the thermal clips because people wanted the typical spray and pray nonsence that plagues so many shooters today. Heat clips from the Geth are interchangable with Alliance ,Turian, Asari weapons? What a load of crap. What did all the factions get together in a room and decide to make clips all interchangable? The heat sink mechanic is here to satisfy the lowest common denominator who wants to spray and pray.

You know, in the present world a British L86, a US M16, a German G36, a French FAMAS or a Norwegian HK 416 or a Belgian FN 2000 shoot a 5,56 bullet!

It´s amazing how what you blame on being weird actually happens in the present world!

That would be correct and is in the limited context your applying to it. My original statement was that the Geth, Asari,Turian and Allaince all got together and decided to use the same heat clip design. The countries you mentioned are all Allies in NATO, you can not stuff Warsaw Pact ammo in a NATO weapon and vice versa. So in the context of my original statement, being able to pick up a Geth dropped heat clip and stuff it into my Alliance rifle is assinine.
Asai

[Statulos]

jimmyjoefro wrote...

Present world. ME is like 170 years in the future with the added bonus of a 200 year leap in technology.

I have used the present day NATO standard round as an example of standarization in weapon possible with "low tech" stuff.

On the other hand, the clips make sense since guns use mass effect fields and unless technology in MA universe is capable of bypassing thermodinamics, the heat generation is still there. So what you do with the clip is a kind of "freon injection" to the gun, not adding more ammunition. Since heat is a universal thing for any gun, it makes sense that it´s a standard clip.

[jimmyjoefro]

Well, ME lore was that the guns generate the "bullets" out of hunks of metal. Soldiers could go a very long time without having to "reload". Then ME2 comes along and all of a sudden guns need "thermal clips" to fire. I would've been fine with the concept if the thermal clips were just a way to prevent overheating or cool a gun down faster. They contradicted their own lore in an attempt to make the game's combat more shooter-like.

Modifié par jimmyjoefro, 06 février 2010 - 08:59 .

[tangofish]

asaiasai wrote...

Look in ME i used a sniper primarily and i had 2 shots bang bang to over heat. I could get one more bang bang bang to overheat with upgrades. In ME2 i can send as many down range as i want to with no penalty as i can just scrounge up more clips. There was/is no motivation to make each bullet count. In ME every bullet that left the gun had to count or you are hiding with a hot and useless weapon.

for example

Geth trooper hiding behind a box, i can see a little of his arm out of cover in ME i had to wait for a clear shot preferably a head shot, in ME2 i can just shoot a few rounds hoping to flush him with no worries.

The ME2 appeals to the lowest common denominator, the spray and pray crowd. I never could in ME just run around with spray and pray i had to wait for a clean shot, in ME2 there is NO such condition. I can run around with my trigger tapped down more so in ME2 with the propensity of clips, no heat build up than i ever could in ME.

I never had an overheating problem in ME (I learned to manage heat) and i got alot of work from one bullet. I do not have problems in ME2 either because i hit what i aim at. It takes less skill to use the ME2 system because if you miss with the first it is ok because you have more in any quantity you want to use. The system in ME2 is a considerable step backwards in skill requirements.

I will go on record and say that those of you who like to ammo system in ME2 (and yes it is an ammo system just because they call them heat sinks as opposed to round still does not change that) should have it, i want the old system back and while i support you i would hope that you would be willing to support me, and maybe just maybe Bioware will give us both what we want in a game play setting.

Asai

You know, I have to completely disagree with you here. I also share your love for the infiltrator, and I found that the ammo system greatly increased their challenge. Managing weapon heat (and indeed exploting it, as the ever-firing assault rilfes or sniper rocket launchers effectively did) was quite easy to master and did nothing for the intensity of a fight. Having to count your shots dynamically changes the sniping game, and in a way that makes the fights more immersive, and more enjoyable.

Let's take your example of the geth trooper in cover. In ME1 I could wait for a clear shot and snipe him, then I could do the same for his buddies, and the guys in the next area. The only thing that determined my pace was weapon cooldown. I could snipe everyone and their uncle and then pose over their bodies like a big game hunter and fire rounds into the air.

Now, in ME2, I have to actively decide whether each enemy I draw a bead on is worth the bullet. Putting a round in his leg is simply not feasible. With only 12 bullets in a rifle I find myself looking for a way to get the most pay-off out of each shot taken. The sniper rifle becomes what it was supposed to be: a precision tool used for taking out key enemies from distance. If anything, the addition of ammo has made the infiltrator evolve from
playing the role of a marksman to that of a battlefield assassin. Both are enjoyable, but I vastly prefer the second.

Considering how effective the sniper rifle is in this game, if you were to replace the ammo with ME's cooldown system it would break the game for infiltrators. If you could just sit back in a nice perch and take shot after shot without stop, there would be little to no challenge left in the game, regardless of difficulty.

[aaniadyen]

jimmyjoefro wrote...

Well, ME lore was that the guns generate the "bullets" out of hunks of metal. Soldiers could go a very long time without having to "reload". Then ME2 comes along and all of a sudden guns need "thermal clips" to fire. I would've been fine with the concept if the thermal clips were just a way to prevent overheating or cool a gun down faster. They contradicted their own lore in an attempt to make the game's combat more shooter-like.

Where do you think the bullets come from now? They never contradicted themselves.

[jimmyjoefro]

Contradict might have been the wrong word choice. The guns still produce their ammo out of clips of metal, but they don't fire without thermal clips. It's an addition to the lore that doesn't make sense.

[cjb110]

Personally don't like it. I thought the ME1 weapons concept was 'original' gave it a quirk...now its just like any other shooter.



Besides the explanation although logical, overheating meant guns weren't firing, but shields need constant attacks to dissipate. The solution though sucks...you've now got a lot shorter constant shooting time (did your spectre pistol/assault ever overheat?) which must mean less ammo hitting target, and you've got soldiers carrying bag loads of ammo around?



And the explanation missed what made the gun types suck against different barriers? Any government would realise you really don't want carry two pistols around to take out one target?



Implementation in the game makes it even worse, what's the difference between staying in cover to cooldown and staying in cover to reload, change gun (because now the guns are also limited effect) and recover health? nothing.



Lastly I just think it adds to the feel that ME2 although great standalone isn't in the same or even similar universe to ME1

[asaiasai]

It is almost like Bioware tried to pull a fast one on the ammo situation. So all weapons in the game use standard heat clips. Ok i can live with that right up until i am out of heat clips for a weapon, then i have to roll over to another weapon that uses standard heat clips in order to continue to fight. The level of contradoction in that is why i have the biggest problem with the ammo situation. If my shotgun still has heat clips why can't i just pull heat clips from the shotgun and stuff them into the assault rifle, the lore supports this more, than requiring me to actually use the shotgun. If they wanted to have a universal heat clip idea then i should be able to carry a standard number and use them in what ever weapon i want. That makes more sense than the current "hole" filled attempt at an ammo situation we currently have.



My soldier has the capacity to carry 50 heat sinks spread out over 4 weapons, the current situation is more condusive to an actual ammo situation as opposed to what we are supposed to have by the lore. Why do Alliance power cells work in a Collector beam weapon, i should have to find Collector power cells to use it. The inconsistencies drive me crazy and the fact that you guys defend the inconsistincies just adds to it.



So the way it should work is you have a standard load out of clips, you can use them in any weapon you choose until you run out. Ok that makes more sense to me than what we currently have. You can pick up "standard clips" off the battle field and they will fill up what ever weapon is needing them. So why not just give me a set number of clips i can carry, use them in any weapon i choose (except heavys) and send me on my way. Or just cut through the trash and call it exactly what it is, ammo and be done with it. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, tastes like a duck the only conclusion one can draw, it is a duck. I would find an ammo situation more palatable than the current system which does not even function in accordance to the lore.



Asai

[aaniadyen]

jimmyjoefro wrote...

Contradict might have been the wrong word choice. The guns still produce their ammo out of clips of metal, but they don't fire without thermal clips. It's an addition to the lore that doesn't make sense.

*Shrugs* I guess they could have explained something about the heat emissions, but I think they did a fine job in simply saying what they did. What doesn't make sense to me is why the hell can't you use the same heat sinks you've used already after they've had time to cool?

Modifié par aaniadyen, 06 février 2010 - 09:37 .

[jimmyjoefro]

So you think it makes sense that guns fire just fine without thermal clips in ME1 but not in ME2?

[Frotality]

asaiasai wrote...

Look in ME i used a sniper primarily and i had 2 shots bang bang to over heat. I could get one more bang bang bang to overheat with upgrades. In ME2 i can send as many down range as i want to with no penalty as i can just scrounge up more clips. There was/is no motivation to make each bullet count. In ME every bullet that left the gun had to count or you are hiding with a hot and useless weapon.

for example

Geth trooper hiding behind a box, i can see a little of his arm out of cover in ME i had to wait for a clear shot preferably a head shot, in ME2 i can just shoot a few rounds hoping to flush him with no worries.

The ME2 appeals to the lowest common denominator, the spray and pray crowd. I never could in ME just run around with spray and pray i had to wait for a clean shot, in ME2 there is NO such condition. I can run around with my trigger tapped down more so in ME2 with the propensity of clips, no heat build up than i ever could in ME.

I never had an overheating problem in ME (I learned to manage heat) and i got alot of work from one bullet. I do not have problems in ME2 either because i hit what i aim at. It takes less skill to use the ME2 system because if you miss with the first it is ok because you have more in any quantity you want to use. The system in ME2 is a considerable step backwards in skill requirements.

I will go on record and say that those of you who like to ammo system in ME2 (and yes it is an ammo system just because they call them heat sinks as opposed to round still does not change that) should have it, i want the old system back and while i support you i would hope that you would be willing to support me, and maybe just maybe Bioware will give us both what we want in a game play setting.

Asai

wow... i want the old system back for the absolute opposite reason.... well different intentions, same goal:D

would love a hybrid system as well, bioware insults our intelligence with the new system thinking we couldnt manage heat buildup before and should just look at the simple math to figure it out now.

[DarthCaine]

'cos it's more fun

[aaniadyen]

jimmyjoefro wrote...

So you think it makes sense that guns fire just fine without thermal clips in ME1 but not in ME2?

From the codes on small arms:

"...The Geth found that in an age of Kinetic barriers, most firefights
were won by the side who could put the most rounds down-range the
fastest. But combatants were forced to deliberately shoot slower to
manage waste heat, or pause as their weapons vented.

To
eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks
known as Theral Clips. While organic arms manufacturers were initially
doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier can
eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior
enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and
today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips."

In the first post.

[jimmyjoefro]

Which still doesn't explain why guns are not capable of firing when someone is out of thermal clips. It would make sense that, in the event of someone not having a thermal clip, the gun would simply revert to the passive cooling instead of not being functional. 

Stop trying to rationalize it. They did it to make the combat more shooter-like. The reason doesn't fit the lore.

Modifié par jimmyjoefro, 06 février 2010 - 09:49 .