103 réponses à ce sujet

[Dracotamer]

Their codex still doesn't make sense. They contradicted their lore. I would be fine with the heat clips, if our guns could still fire WITHOUT them. They should be able to fire unlimited ammo, but heat up and require cooldowns like the ME1 when you run out of clips. Clips should just make overheating not an issue.

[KalosCast]

aaniadyen wrote...

Anyone else love how Bioware actually tries to give logical explanations when they change in-game mechanics instead of just yelling "Space magic!"?

Even though, in this case, yelling space magic would have made more sense...

[roku]

the new system is awful.



not because of how it works gameplay wise...but because its just plain stupid lore and science wise.



no weapons manufacturer would EVER make a gun need clips if they didnt have to. its just stupid. whats a better gun? one that has (near) infinite ammo or one that you cant shoot after 12 shots cuz its just too hot and cant cool down on its own...ever?



if its heat they are working with...why then if i stop shooting with 1 left in the heat clip wont it cool down at all? if its just heat...then if i stop shooting....it should cool down on its own, i shouldnt still have just 1 shot left an hour later if i stopped shooting.



aaaannnndddddd............why are my heat sinks spent when i eject them? why cant i cycle a bunch and let them cool off while i use another one? why do i keep having to find new ones????



just ridiculous.

[Raygereio]

I'm okay with the heatsink system. It actually forces you to aim instead of slapping two heatsinks on something and spraying bullets until kingdom come. Though a combination that allowed you to fire the gun ME1 style with overheating if you ran out of heatsinks would have better.

Though when I did Jacob's loyalty mission and the guys that were stuck alone on a planet on the fringe of the galaxy for 10 years, were somehow using tech developed in the last 2 years, it did get a little silly for me.

Modifié par Raygereio, 06 février 2010 - 10:15 .

[HandOfJudg3m3nt]

i both like and dislike the new system, i like that it does make the combat more intense and makes me really consider who is worth a bullet from my sniper rifle. but its also a huge pain in the ass because as far as i'm concerned insanity is basicly a 1 player game. my teamates end up dead and i'm usually left to mop up by myself (which i'm tired of, i shouldn't have to order my team OUT of cover because they're too stupid to realize an enemy has come up beside them and is shooting them in the head with a shotgun). i think they should have given you some sort of hold out gun or something, like in star wars republic commando you had that rinky dink little pistol that while it was weak as hell you could conserve ammo and still shoot if your main weapons ran low.

[Obadiah]

Nautica773 wrote...
...It's just annoying scavenging every battle front for loose ammo and only being able to use my specialty weapon for half a combat (when you're class is focussed so much around a single weapon like the Infiltrator).

I'm playing an Infiltrator now. Compared toi ME 1, constantly running out of ammo for my sniper rifle (only 10 shots? Really? This is the codex's "improvement" of more "ammo"?) is very annoying.

Mallissin wrote...
...
And don't bother with the "let your teammates with unlimited ammo do all the work" argument.
...

This is the other problem. You, the player, are the only person that has to deal with running out of thermal clips.

jimmyjoefro wrote...

Well, ME lore was that the guns
generate the "bullets" out of hunks of metal. Soldiers could go a very
long time without having to "reload". Then ME2 comes along and all of a
sudden guns need "thermal clips" to fire. I would've been fine with the
concept if the thermal clips were just a way to prevent overheating or
cool a gun down faster. They contradicted their own lore in an attempt
to make the game's combat more shooter-like.

Agree with this. The devs should have just kept the old mechanic, and when your weapon overheats, give the player the option to pop a thermal clip.

Modifié par Obadiah, 15 février 2010 - 08:48 .

[Destructo-Bot]

You guys know... in the first game infinite firing was a choice. You could load up on two Frictionless Materials X or you could load up on two Scram Rails X... trading sustained damaged for front loaded damage. Do you use FMX in your sniper rifle to get two shots out of it before overheat or do you throw on Explosive Rounds and Scram rails or a Combat Optic (unjammable radar) for a one hit wonder that overheats immediately or gives you a better tactical appraisal downfield?

If you WANTED to play spray n' pray you could, but that was FAR from the only style. I personally had the sniper setup to be a one hit wonder and the Assault Rifle as a suppressive fire weapon in case I got rushed and had to retreat.

ME1 system had given the player the choice of tactics to use with their weapon loadouts. ME2 forces the player to use what the game thinks you should use. Which one is better role-playing? Which is more fun? I'm going with the ME1 system.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 15 février 2010 - 08:57 .

[XWAU_Forceflow]

asaiasai wrote...

It is almost like Bioware tried to pull a fast one on the ammo situation. So all weapons in the game use standard heat clips. Ok i can live with that right up until i am out of heat clips for a weapon, then i have to roll over to another weapon that uses standard heat clips in order to continue to fight. The level of contradoction in that is why i have the biggest problem with the ammo situation. If my shotgun still has heat clips why can't i just pull heat clips from the shotgun and stuff them into the assault rifle, the lore supports this more, than requiring me to actually use the shotgun. If they wanted to have a universal heat clip idea then i should be able to carry a standard number and use them in what ever weapon i want. That makes more sense than the current "hole" filled attempt at an ammo situation we currently have.

My soldier has the capacity to carry 50 heat sinks spread out over 4 weapons, the current situation is more condusive to an actual ammo situation as opposed to what we are supposed to have by the lore. Why do Alliance power cells work in a Collector beam weapon, i should have to find Collector power cells to use it. The inconsistencies drive me crazy and the fact that you guys defend the inconsistincies just adds to it.

So the way it should work is you have a standard load out of clips, you can use them in any weapon you choose until you run out. Ok that makes more sense to me than what we currently have. You can pick up "standard clips" off the battle field and they will fill up what ever weapon is needing them. So why not just give me a set number of clips i can carry, use them in any weapon i choose (except heavys) and send me on my way. Or just cut through the trash and call it exactly what it is, ammo and be done with it. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, tastes like a duck the only conclusion one can draw, it is a duck. I would find an ammo situation more palatable than the current system which does not even function in accordance to the lore.

Asai

^^This exactly how I feel! I also don't really like tha fact that I have to drag every weapon into combat as my soldier. (Mostly because it looks stupid...)
Have the soldier being able to use every gun but make me choose the loadout I want to carry. Tone down handgun damage and remove the heatsinks for this one. (Because really, if you can make a gun that has unlimited ammo you would ALWAYS have one spare with you)
And please let me customise my weapons again! Remove the whole power thing for soldiers, it doen't make sense at all. A gun is a machine and should be treated as such!

Just another thing where Bioware 'streamlined' the gameplay up to a point where it's more being dumbed down than anything else...

And sorry for resurecting this, but since there is some good discussions going on (from both sides) I though it would be much better than starting a new discussion.

[Pauravi]

asaiasai wrote...

I liked the passive system better, as it required more skill i think, you had to make each shot count.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAaaahahahahaha.. haha.. whoooo boy.  Wow.
By any reasonable evaluation, exactly the opposite is true.
How do you have to "make every shot count" in a system in which you never run out of ammo?  All I ever needed to do in ME was slap a good heat reducer on virtually any gun and I could basically hold down the trigger for the length of nearly any firefight.  The only time I EVER overheated was when I was using HE Ammo in my shotgun or sniper rifle for sh*ts and giggles.  Even if you do overheat, it doesn't last for THAT long.  "Spray and pray", as you mentioned, is a mechanic that perfectly describes ME1 combat.

ME2 on the other hand requires ammo conservation, and being able to aim for specific parts actually provides a benefit.  Trying to "spray and pray" in ME2 may be the reason that you spent so much time hunting for thermal clips (something I virtually never had to do), as it is basically the least effective way to use your weapon.

[stillnotking]

asaiasai wrote...

I liked the passive system better, as it required more skill i think, you had to make each shot count.

That's pretty backwards.  In ME1 it was trivially easy to get a gun that could be fired eternally without overheating.  In ME2, you actually have to worry about "making each shot count" in order to conserve ammo.

Some of these posts, I honestly wonder if we played the same games.  You can love it or hate it but there's no denying the system in ME2 is an added challenge.

[sergio71785]

If you're in a vacuum, then with the old system your weapon will take forever to cool down.

[Schneidend]

roku wrote...

the new system is awful.

not because of how it works gameplay wise...but because its just plain stupid lore and science wise.

no weapons manufacturer would EVER make a gun need clips if they didnt have to. its just stupid. whats a better gun?

The better gun is the one that wins battles, and the gun that lays down the most slugs the fastest is the gun that wins battles. Thermal clips allow soldiers to fire faster. Simple as that.

[medlish]

sergio71785 wrote...

If you're in a vacuum, then with the old system your weapon will take forever to cool down.

actually this is a good point.

[didymos1120]

stillnotking wrote...
That's pretty backwards.  In ME1 it was trivially easy to get a gun that could be fired eternally without overheating.

Which I've always found difficult to buy, and far more so than the whole heat sink thing (mostly, just the rapid adoption is a bit suspect, and not really all that bad.  A lot is people nitpicking what is obviously just gameplay stuff as if it were how things "really" worked).   I mean, you slap some super ninja version of WD40 in there and suddenly all those closely-packed components like targeting computers, power cells, the field generator, and so on cease generating heat?  At best those magical Frictionless Materials would have only cut down on heat from the few moving parts in these guns (basically just whatever shaves the grains off your ammo block and feeds it into the accelerator chamber), and I have trouble buying that all the other perfectly motionless tech in there wasn't generating the lion's share of the heat. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 22 février 2010 - 09:40 .

[PingoBlack]

Sabotage.
(tech skill, ME1)

/thread

Modifié par PingoBlack, 22 février 2010 - 09:36 .

[didymos1120]

medlish wrote...

sergio71785 wrote...

If you're in a vacuum, then with the old system your weapon will take forever to cool down.

actually this is a good point.

A very good point.  Hadn't even crossed my mind, and now it's instantly become one of those "It's so obvious now. Why could I not SEE?" things.

[XWAU_Forceflow]

sergio71785 wrote...

If you're in a vacuum, then with the old system your weapon will take forever to cool down.

True in theory, but since the weapons didn't have that problem in ME1 (and I can't even remember when fighting in true vacuum for that matter) it doesn't really matter in terms of lore explanation. I don't think the environment had any effect of weapon cooling. (Where in theory fighting on a ice planet should make the weapon cool down much faster than on a desert planet, neither of which happedend if I remember correctly)

[Aisynia]

asaiasai wrote...

I liked the passive system better, as it required more skill i think, you had to make each shot count.

Not really. Snowblind Rounds. Boom, infinite ammo.

[Ulicus]

I think people need to divorce gameplay from a lore a little bit here. It's very likely that, as far as the lore is concerned, most guns still have passive cooling and the thermal clips just exist to speed up the process and remove the penalties for overheating your weapon. You might argue that those penalties weren't all that bad in ME1 and could be easily negated but I would think that weapons actually took a considerably longer time to cool down in "reality" than they did in the gameplay of ME1. Not the infinite length of time ME2's gameplay would suggest, but long enough that overheating - when it did occur - was a really big issue.

Would I have preferred a hybrid system? With "ammo" regenerating (very) slowly when you weren't firing? Certainly -- and I think it would have better worked with the lore as I imagine it currently stands. But I can't imagine BioWare didn't consider that preferable themselves... so I suspect there's some reason it's unfeasible as far as the game is concerned.

And, hey, given that overheating isn't a problem with thermal clips, it stands to reason that weapons companies would manufacture their weapons with considerably more "kick" than they did previously... so that could be one reason why weapons take a lot longer to passively cool now.

In any case. It's clear that the civilisations of the galaxy don't consider the thermal clip system a step backwards, so the argument that it is a step backwards in the setting using arguments from gameplay that may not even reflect the setting 100% accurately doesn't really hold water. Not for me, anyway.

Modifié par Ulicus, 22 février 2010 - 12:46 .

[HeavyTankZA]

i love the new system, nothing made me angrier in the first ME you are pounding away at enemy shields then that beeping noise of over heat....

[matt-bassist]

You people saying ME1's weapon system is superior clearly haven't tried going back to ME1 after playing through ME2 a few times. Man, the weapon systems in ME1 SUCK compared to ME2. They are slow and sluggish, they constantly overheat, you constantly miss your target (aren't you supposed to be an elite SOLDIER?! LOL a soldier that sucks at aiming... that's "realistic").

You should be glad that Bioware actually went through the trouble to create a very realistic and believable reason for the introduction of "ammo" instead of just throwing it into the mix. So not only did they create a far superior combat system, but they actually came up with a completely believable reason for it that fit in with the lore of the game.

And you people still complain? Geez. If ME2 is so flawed, go F off back to ME1 and enjoy over-heating your weapon... again... and again... and again...

[matt-bassist]

anyone notice that most of the people who prefer the old ME1 system and have Dragon Age profile pictures are all ugly female dwarves?!?! Wtf?!?

[smudboy]

Great reasoning, Geth.





Geth: "We have already solved the problem of limited ammunition. Let's recreate it so we can fire faster."



Riiiiiiight.

[kraidy1117]

I love the babies here. "Aw I want to run around the room, sparying bullets everywhere, then go in cover, wait till it unheats then do it again" ME was WAY to easy, even on insane. People complained about that and Bioware decided to do this system that works so well. Playing a Infiltrator sucked in ME, but in ME2 I love it. I have played and beat the game on insane with a Solder and I noly ran out of ammo durring the Human-Reaper boss, My squadmates killed some Collectors, got some clips and boom the reaper died.



This system makes you carefully shoot and not run around like a moron spraying your bullets which was not fun in ME. The point, this new system will not be removed in ME3 because it makes the combat more balanced, more fun and more fluid.

[Kaosu Haze]

asaiasai wrote...
Look in ME i used a sniper primarily and i had 2 shots bang bang to over heat. I could get one more bang bang bang to overheat with upgrades. In ME2 i can send as many down range as i want to with no penalty as i can just scrounge up more clips. There was/is no motivation to make each bullet count. In ME every bullet that left the gun had to count or you are hiding with a hot and useless weapon. i

Oh please. I played an Infiltrator in ME1 and in ME2 as well.

ME1: Hit Marksman(LOL I NEVER OVERHEAT) -> Kill everything.
Occasionally use Assasination on a Spectre Master Gear Sniper loaded with 2 Scram Rails and HE ammo to one shot a dangerous enemy, then back to the Marksman absurdness.

I don't recall ever letting my pistol overheat. My Sniper on the other hand overheated constantly, but that's the point of HE rounds.
My soldier just loaded snowblind ammo into her AR, problem solved, Immunity -> SPRAY EVERYTHING DOWN.
As for Shotgun heat, it's ****** easy to manage if you've used a shotgun in any other shooter. Also, snowblind rounds.


ME2: I actually have to switch up my weapons. No more pistol insanity, reserved for armor and finishing off midrange targets. SMG was my friend for weakening enemies and taking care of the damned husks charging you constantly(ME1 husks? See: Marksman, they're all dead before they reach you), and for it's large ammo capacity. Sniper shots are still reserved for important targets(ie. Commanders/Harbinger/Heavies), and every miss costs you dearly(unlike ME1, where it's just a couple seconds to let it cool down, or just go back to Marksman).

You've got it backwards. In ME2 every bullet counts. In ME a miss is nothing. There were way too many ways to completely bypass the heat system, and it was hardly a limitation on your firing anyway.


I grow tired of people even trying to say that ME's combat system was better than ME2s. It wasn't, it was broken to all high hell and beyond, ME2's is vastly superior.