103 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Nicholai]

roku wrote...

the new system is awful.

not because of how it works gameplay wise...but because its just plain stupid lore and science wise.

no weapons manufacturer would EVER make a gun need clips if they didnt have to. its just stupid. whats a better gun? one that has (near) infinite ammo or one that you cant shoot after 12 shots cuz its just too hot and cant cool down on its own...ever?

We don't know how much shots a gun from ME1 could fire without overheating. Yes, you can slap some heatsinks on and let it fire forever in the game, but that was just a gameplay mechanic; just like Shepards ****** poor accuracy at the start of the game, and the health bar (why don't you people moan about that then eh? I'm pretty sure most people will be taken down with one shot instead of having a health bar. Its added in to make the game enjoyable).

This is a little OT, but for some reason I don't like it when people say 'lore' when talking about Mass Effect

[XWAU_Forceflow]

From a gameplay perspective I don't mind the ammo system that much. (I am a shooter player, so I am quite used to the shoot/cover/reload routine anyway)

But it does bother me from the lore point of view where it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It especially bothers me because the game wont let me handle ammo the way I want to use it.

So all ammo from all weapons in the galaxy (except heavy weapons) is interchangeable. Yet I cannot use the ammo from my shotgun (which I NEVER user) and put it into my sniper rifle?

Sorry, but that's just plain stupid and there's no reasonable explanation for it. If the game had either introduced a real ammo concept (different weapons, different ammo) or would have had a common ammo pool it wouldn't have bothered me so much. But the way it is now just doesn't fit in the storyline.

Not to mention why my Shep instantly knows how to use them. How hard would it have been to trow in a couple extra lines like this:

Shep: 'Damit, my gun wont fire!'

Miranda: 'You need a heatsink! Fine one around, there's a slot on the side of the gun to put it in. I'll explain the rest once you meet up with me!'

Shep: 'Whatever...'



At lest than this plot hole would've been solved...

[didymos1120]

Ulicus wrote...

I think people need to divorce gameplay from a lore a little bit here. It's very likely that, as far as the lore is concerned, most guns still have passive cooling and the thermal clips just exist to speed up the process and remove the penalties for overheating your weapon.

Well, on that, the Codex is pretty clear: pretty much everyone has converted over.  As I imagine it (yes: this is totally made-up on my part), for most it wasn't a matter of buying a new gun, but rather swapping out the old cooling system for a clip based one.  Technology in ME in general is quite modular and "tweakable", so moving to the new tech wouldn't need to be too different from, say, cracking open your PC and replacing your current fan/heatsink combo with a water cooling system.  That said, it's reasonable to assume "legacy" cooling systems are still out there somewhere.

You might argue that those penalties weren't all that bad in ME1 and could be easily negated but I would think that weapons actually took a considerably longer time to cool down in "reality" than they did in the gameplay of ME1.

Yes.  Exactly.  That's sort of what I was getting at with the Frictionless Materials thing:  they're not even realistic by the standards of the ME lore, but people act as though that's how the guns must "really" work, so therefore thermal clips just cannot be allowed to stand unchallenged.  In actual, honest-to-god, real-world reality, they're pure gameplay: just another in a long line of late-game items/abilities in a long line of games that allow you to circumvent what, if these things were really real, just plain couldn't be circumvented and that, to varying degrees, break the rules of the gameworld itself. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 22 février 2010 - 02:19 .

[didymos1120]

XWAU_Forceflow wrote...
I don't think the environment had any effect of weapon cooling. (Where in theory fighting on a ice planet should make the weapon cool down much faster than on a desert planet, neither of which happedend if I remember correctly)

Yes, and the Mako also handled identically no matter what the local gravity was because that was way, way easier than writing a bunch of code to simulate those effects.  Nothing in ME1 paid much beyond token attention to the environment.  Hazardous conditions got you down?  No problem!  Just put one squad member in a Devlon armor and everyone's magically protected!  Wow, isn't it cool how you can get right next to molten rock on Therum and not even break a sweat?  But stick your toe a few pixels thataway and...BANG. YOU'RE DEAD.  Hey, check it:  not only does the Mako ignore variations in gravity, which can be semi-plausibly handwaved by invoking its small mass effect core, but me and my squad can too! 

But that's all just gameplay stuff, like how if you just spend enough skill points, suddenly you have superpowers that make it so your pistol can blast away at assault rifle rates of fire and, for some reason, cut way down on heat production while doing so.  How's that actually work?  Not like you added anything to the gun in that split-second that it takes to activate Marksman.  You just can.

And you know what? That's perfectly fine and makes for fun gaming. But taking it literally, either to complain about how unrealistic it all is or to use as "established" canon to complain about  changes in the sequel? Silly.

[didymos1120]

XWAU_Forceflow wrote...

 Yet I cannot use the ammo from my shotgun (which I NEVER user) and put it into my sniper rifle?
Sorry, but that's just plain stupid and there's no reasonable explanation for it.

Yes, there is: they didn't write the code for it because that was simpler/faster/etc.  That's perfectly reasonable, if annoying, and entirely a different issue than how the clips "really" behave going by the lore.   In fact, the game doesn't totally ignore this. Pay attention after a fight in which you've emptied a weapon.  Now go pick up clips.  Often, you'll notice that the current weapon only picks up a few shots, and that your depleted weapon also picked up a few....from the same clip.

[dou_]

The explanation could've been better (or even decent). People would be more open to the idea if there was some conversation where Shepard questions the going back to clips. Also, picking clips up is annoying. Considering Shepards knee problems and inability to crouch anywhere he likes, there should be another option.

[matt-bassist]

AGAIN the people complaining all have freaky ugly dwarf women portraits!!!!!

[Tleining]

"That would be correct and is in the limited context your applying to it. My original statement was that the Geth, Asari,Turian and Allaince all got together and decided to use the same heat clip design. The countries you mentioned are all Allies in NATO, you can not stuff Warsaw Pact ammo in a NATO weapon and vice versa. So in the context of my original statement, being able to pick up a Geth dropped heat clip and stuff it into my Alliance rifle is assinine.
Asai"

And Asari, Turian and Alliance are not allies? The Geth created the system, Soldiers fighting them discovered that the new system was better than their own. So they asked for similiar weapons, or took the weapons from the geth and asked for additional Ammoclips. As the companys who sell to them also sell to other species, this new system was not only adapted in Citadel Space, but in the TerminusSystems as well.
Kinda like how the Knights in Shining Armor became obsolete, once someone discovered how to use gunpowder to dismount them. And not only in one Kingdom, but in every kingdom that came in contact with them.

"Which still doesn't explain why guns are not capable of firing when someone is out of thermal clips. It would make sense that, in the event of someone not having a thermal clip, the gun would simply revert to the passive cooling instead of not being functional. "

Because the concept is different. In ME1, all weapons had an Heat-Dispenser/Radiator, that was radiating the generated heat away from the gun, thus cooling it. But the process took time, firing too fast caused the heat to build up and overheat the device.
In ME2, this Device was replaced by ejectable Heat-Sinks. The generated Heat is dumped into them, and once they are full, they need to be replaced.

As to why you are not able to take heat-sinks from one weapon and transfer it to another: Imagine the people whining here, if after a battle, all their weapons were unable to fire. Bioware was doing us a favor with that system. I still remember how i hated it in Deus Ex 2, where all weapons were using the same ammo-source. Oh joy.

And as for Shepard knowing about the new system in ME2: It was never stated when this new system was invented. After the Geth-Incursion into the Armstrong-Cluster, it is possible that the Alliance encountered this new system while Shepard was fighting Sovereign.

[Ulicus]

didymos1120 wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

I think people need to divorce gameplay from a lore a little bit here. It's very likely that, as far as the lore is concerned, most guns still have passive cooling and the thermal clips just exist to speed up the process and remove the penalties for overheating your weapon.

Well, on that, the Codex is pretty clear: pretty much everyone has converted over.  As I imagine it (yes: this is totally made-up on my part), for most it wasn't a matter of buying a new gun, but rather swapping out the old cooling system for a clip based one.  Technology in ME in general is quite modular and "tweakable", so moving to the new tech wouldn't need to be too different from, say, cracking open your PC and replacing your current fan/heatsink combo with a water cooling system.  That said, it's reasonable to assume "legacy" cooling systems are still out there somewhere.

I had assumed that the thermal clips were something used in addition to the passive cooling systems (that I suspected were) built into all weapons, rather than a replacement. But your suggestion isn't implausible, by any means, and seems to work with the setting.

[new_bio]

Super soldiers in future, runig over battlefield and searching for coolers for weapons for every shot from sniper rifle?!!! Generally soldier (weapon) depended only from loot from battlefield is dumbest possible idea. Maybe for some super-unreal virtual shooter, but for ROLE PLAYING game?!!! I can understand overheating mega powered weapon, but this? I try go with malee with my infiltrator, should be more realistic

Sorry for my English but this not changing the clue.

[Zurcior]

I've always thought heat sinks were a gun maintanence issue than a combat issue.

[PingoBlack]

Again, Sabotage anyone?

These threads are so annoying I might as well post mosquito style ...
Not even going into the debate why ME2 combat is eons better than it was in ME1.

Modifié par PingoBlack, 22 février 2010 - 03:14 .

[LxLegend]

Little issues with lore like this is what really hound ME2 for me. Gameplay aside lore wise heat sinks do not make sense.



Here's why:



Added cost of buying a supply of heat sinks for users.

Added cost of shipping, manufacturing, and distributing heat sinks commercially.

Unable to fire weapons without sinks leaving user unarmed.

Added pollution of battlefields from used heat sinks.



I could keep going but it's already been written that the ME universe has an economy and economically heat sinks don't make sense and logically in long run the weapons of ME1 would fire more rounds.



ME1 the guns stated the number of rounds they fired before overheating. For the Specter Sniper Rifle that was 2 rounds. In ME2 the Widow fires one round before a ME1 overheat and can't fire again without a heat sink.



In a snipers duel which gun would a soldier in the ME universe want?



The gun that fires twice before overheating and needs no ammo but only a few seconds to fire again. Or the gun that fires once and requires another heat sink of which when you have no more the gun becomes useless.



Basically from a lore standpoint heat sinks or any type of ammo doesn't make sense. Because any "ammo" would constitute the use of additional resources which weren't need before and don't offer significant improvement in performance for the cost.

[Karstedt]

I'm a complainer! I don't like the new system. I liked the old system because it was something different and somewhat unique to the ME universe. It needed some tweaking for sure. But just turning it into a clip based system was retarded. I don't replace the heat sink on my CPU every day because it gets hot. The beauty of the old system was how well it lent itself to variety and customization. We've lost a LOT of customization equipment wise, and I hope to see some of that return in ME3.

[new_bio]

I remember bridge defense in Garus rescue mission.

"Give me the clip! Give me the clip! Oh no, no clip? Must run to the bridge!

No! Santa just droped some more on the desk. Just wait, I run for them! And again I will be superduper hero!"

Sorry, no ofense

[didymos1120]

LxLegend wrote...
In a snipers duel which gun would a soldier in the ME universe want?

In a snipers' duel, you wouldn't be using a Widow anyway.  For one, it's supposed to be an anti-materiel rifle, not anti-personnel.  For two, neither Shepard nor anyone else should even be able to use the thing. Officially, only Legion can tolerate the recoil. For three, the lore says it's 39kg, or roughly 86 pounds.  86. Pounds. I.e., not the most portable of weapons and the equivalent of toting around a large dog. Again this is gameplay trumping "reality".  Just like how you (and some Asari mercs, apparently) can use the supposedly anyone-not-Krogan-arm-shattering Claymore.

Modifié par didymos1120, 22 février 2010 - 03:41 .

[Ulicus]

didymos1120 wrote...

In a snipers' duel, you wouldn't be using a Widow anyway.  For one, it's supposed to be an anti-materiel rifle, not anti-personnel.  For two, neither Shepard nor anyone else should even be able to use the thing. Officially, only Legion can tolerate the recoil. For three, the lore says it's 39kg, or roughly 86 pounds.  86. Pounds. I.e., not the most portable of weapons and the equivalent of toting around a large dog. Again this is gameplay trumping "reality".  Just tike how you (and some Asari mercs, apparently) can use the supposedly anyone-not-Krogan-arm-shattering Claymore.

Well, at least in Shepard's case, that could be explained by the fact he gets heavily upgraded with cybernetics, synthetic fibers and bone weaves over the course of ME2.

[LxLegend]

didymos1120 wrote...

LxLegend wrote...
In a snipers duel which gun would a soldier in the ME universe want?

In a snipers' duel, you wouldn't be using a Widow anyway.  For one, it's supposed to be an anti-materiel rifle, not anti-personnel.  For two, neither Shepard nor anyone else should even be able to use the thing. Officially, only Legion can tolerate the recoil. For three, the lore says it's 39kg, or roughly 86 pounds.  86. Pounds. I.e., not the most portable of weapons and the equivalent of toting around a large dog. Again this is gameplay trumping "reality".  Just like how you (and some Asari mercs, apparently) can use the supposedly anyone-not-Krogan-arm-shattering Claymore.

Fair enough but Shep is a Cyborg.  And anyway the point remains the same for a duel between the Spectre Rifle from ME1 and ME2 Mantis or Viper rifles.

Edit:

As a gameplay mechanic I have no problem with having to "reload" weapons or the "ammo" system for the most part.  However, considering the ME universe as they wrote it in both the two books and ME1 heat sinks and ammo systems don't fit and make no sense.

Modifié par LxLegend, 22 février 2010 - 04:00 .

[inversevideo]

I like the change to heat sinks, even though it does not make sense, as an advancement, only in that it seems like the glalaxy had already solved that issue in ME1. If you put two heat sinks, in your assault rifle, you could keep the button depressed forever.

But the developers felt that weapons, that did not run out of ammo, dteracted from the experience.
And since ammo, in the future (at least according to the codex), is shaved off of a long lasting block, of material, the only way forward, in-game, was the ejectable heat-sink.

Is it a perfect seamless transition? No, there is no reason that your enemies weapon should spontaneously eject a useable heat sink, if you put a round through your enemies skull. But there it is, it is what it is. The only other alternative, would be for you to have to loot dead soldiers or look for caches. This way is a bit easier, no? Kill the enemy and their weapon purges it's heat sink on the user's death, Who knows? Might be delibrate, and tied to your omni-tool. Upon sensing the user's death the weapon ejects it's core, to make it a bit more difficult for the enemy to pick up and immediately use a stronger weapon; without having to find and insert a heat-sink, giving the opposition a chance to kill the enemy while they are fumbling around.

I know, I know..  it is far from perfect, but I think it is an improvement, and I tend to be more of an RPG than FPS fan. You should have to look for 'ammo', or make better choices concerning mixing the powers of you and your squad, and what tactics you take to achieve your objective.

I think the only thing 'lost', in the current system, is the ability not to have to plan at all, if you did not want to use any strategy or tactice; but instead wanted to rely soley on being able to outgun the enemy.

Modifié par inversevideo, 22 février 2010 - 03:57 .

[Gabey5]

faster and smoother gameplay...-

[Valmy]

Putting aside the lore and science angle I thought it didn't make much of a difference.



I guess the main thing is I used to just let loose a few shots just to let off steam sometimes during a mission, with the new system I try to conserve my shots...but there are so many heat clips you never really have to worry about running out unless you are just a terrible shot.

[Skyblade012]

New armor upgrade (Gauntlets):

Heat Dissipators: Slows rate of fire by 25%, but eliminates the needs for Thermal Clips.

Since pretty much everyone who would want this runs around with +10% Ammo Capacity in the first place, Gauntlets are the best place to use it. Then people who like the old system can stick with it, while those who like the new system get to keep using it.

Modifié par Skyblade012, 22 février 2010 - 04:01 .

[Lord Nicholai]

LxLegend wrote...

ME1 the guns stated the number of rounds they fired before overheating. For the Specter Sniper Rifle that was 2 rounds. In ME2 the Widow fires one round before a ME1 overheat and can't fire again without a heat sink.

In a snipers duel which gun would a soldier in the ME universe want?

The gun that fires twice before overheating and needs no ammo but only a few seconds to fire again. Or the gun that fires once and requires another heat sink of which when you have no more the gun becomes useless.

Technically both still require ammo. The older one will not require disposable heat sinks, but they both use the same style ammunition. I had much more trouble with my guns overheating in ME1(at the start of the game before the upgrades; and it is safe to assume that the upgrades you get are not really 'canon' and are for the RPG element only) than I did with swapping heat sinks in ME2.

If you use the weapons properly in ME2 you wont run out of heat sinks often, even on insanity.

[Skyblade012]

Lord Nicholai wrote...

LxLegend wrote...

ME1 the guns stated the number of rounds they fired before overheating. For the Specter Sniper Rifle that was 2 rounds. In ME2 the Widow fires one round before a ME1 overheat and can't fire again without a heat sink.

In a snipers duel which gun would a soldier in the ME universe want?

The gun that fires twice before overheating and needs no ammo but only a few seconds to fire again. Or the gun that fires once and requires another heat sink of which when you have no more the gun becomes useless.

Technically both still require ammo. The older one will not require disposable heat sinks, but they both use the same style ammunition. I had much more trouble with my guns overheating in ME1(at the start of the game before the upgrades; and it is safe to assume that the upgrades you get are not really 'canon' and are for the RPG element only) than I did with swapping heat sinks in ME2.

If you use the weapons properly in ME2 you wont run out of heat sinks often, even on insanity.

Um, yeah, you will.

"Proper" use of a Sniper Rifle is to stay as far away from the enemy as possible and kill them all before they get close to you.  Since you only get 14 shots with the Widow (and there are plenty of missions with way more than 14 enemies at once, even assuming 1 shot kills for all of them), and can only get more heat sinks if you are right on top of the enemy, using the weapon "properly" guarantees you will run out fairly quickly.

[Tleining]

LxLegend wrote...

Added cost of buying a supply of heat sinks for users.
Added cost of shipping, manufacturing, and distributing heat sinks commercially.
Unable to fire weapons without sinks leaving user unarmed.
Added pollution of battlefields from used heat sinks.

I could keep going but it's already been written that the ME universe has an economy and economically heat sinks don't make sense and logically in long run the weapons of ME1 would fire more rounds.

ME1 the guns stated the number of rounds they fired before overheating. For the Specter Sniper Rifle that was 2 rounds. In ME2 the Widow fires one round before a ME1 overheat and can't fire again without a heat sink.

shorted it at bit, hope you don't mind.

okay, comparing weapons from ME1 and ME2: Your theory only makes sense if you stop there. But you might want to take a step back  and compare the rate of fire in an ongoing fight.
Spectre SR took 1 second per shot, 4 seconds to cooldown after overheating. In ME2, firing shot 1 second, reloading 1 second.
So, in order to fire 4 shots and make the weapon ready for the next one. In ME1 it's 4 seconds for firing, 8 seconds for 2 cooldowns=12 seconds. In ME2 it's 4 seconds for firing, 4 for reloading=8 seconds. (i just tried it, without any mods the SR fired 3 shots before reload, 6 shots took 14 seconds, in ME2 would be 12 seconds)
The difference is not much, but that is for a sniper rifle. The difference for assault rifles is far greater.

Economy: Right, someone produces 5000 Assault Rifles per year, each one will work without flaw for 1000 years. Good idea.
wouldn't it make more sense to produce 2500 Assault Rifles and 10000 ThermalClips each year, that won't last for a year, so that people have to pay more?

as to the pollution..., we used a nuclear bomb on a garden world, you know?
and who knows, maybe they can be recycled, would offer a lot of new jobs: travelling to planets and collect used thermal-clips *lol*