10369 réponses à ce sujet

[Raonar]

Firky wrote...

You guys are amazing. I wouldn't have thought of half of this stuff myself.

I'm really trying to think of a plausable way that someone could undergo the Rite and come out either not Tranquil at all or a little bit Tranquil but without knowing anything about the Rite, I can't quite make an assumption that sounds right.

Presumably it is witnessed by someone. Presumably they check somehow? How could you prove the Rite had worked?

EDIT: Also, are there female Tranquil? I don't recall anyone. Unless that enchanter lady in the Keep in DOA was Tranquil. I don't remember her saying she was but her dialogue was a little ... dry?

I think there was a female tranquil in the CIrcle Tower, in the room with abominations and bookcases on the second or third level. The one with the three statues with shields.... I think...

[LupusYondergirl]

There are. In the mage origin there is one in the stockroom and another in the second floor library. In Broken Circle there are women in the room with the statues at the center. One says something like "that was an uncomfortable experience"

The female tranquil all have shaved heads.

[Sarah1281]

Why DO the Tranquil women have shaved heads? Or is it just the ones we see. Do they just not care about their hair to the extent that they don't bother with it? Owain's not bald but his hair is short as well.

[LupusYondergirl]

I wondered that same thing. At first I thought it was something they might have done to all tranquil, but there's Owain (and the one in camp at Ostagar has even longer hair than him). It doesn't seem like they would have just the women shave their heads, and really, bald is a fairly high-maintenance look compared to a basic short cut, which seems counterproductive if they just don't care about hair or appearances. My roommate has to shave his head at least once a week or it's stubble city.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Raonar wrote...

I don't really trust this Rite. Dwarves
aren't connected to the fade but they still have emotions. I think the  Chantry does that rite as it does it in order to purposely remove their  emotions so that they don't go mad or die when folding lyrium into weapons during enchantments.

Well, there's no evidence for or against deliberately removing emotion. There's always a chance this result is beneficial, IMO, since magic and walking the Fade aware must be incredibly powerful feelings. How would it affect someone's mind and personality to remember they could once experience such things but then lose it all? In some sense it might be like losing your ability to fly, or not being able to hear music, or going colourblind.

LupusYondergirl wrote...

Lack of discipline I can understand, but the impression I got from Jowan was that he would have been made tranquil for lack of power (blood magic or no).

While this could be completely true, I confess to being a little leery at taking Jowan's suspicions at face value. He could have been right, he could have been paranoid, but given his later deceptions he could have been trying to garner sympathy. I just wish there was more info to go on...

Meyne wrote...

It could be that a mage who has limited  talent will become frustrated and more likely to be wooed by a demon or
by the promises of augmenting with Blood Magic.

This is very possibe. It's a moral slippery slope since, hey, not *everyone* who's mediocre will go that far, but lots of things in medieval-style times were of dubious ethicality.

Meyne wrote...

Most mages I think would go to the Harrowing, determined to see it through, and would rather risk death for possible success than go Tranquil.

It's a tough call, and very individual.

Firky wrote...

I'm
really trying to think of a plausable way that someone could undergo the Rite and come out either not Tranquil at all or a little bit Tranquil but without knowing anything about the Rite, I can't quite make an assumption that sounds right.

Presumably it is witnessed by someone. Presumably they check somehow? How could you prove the Rite had worked?

Well, if the new Tranquil can work with lyrium that'd be a good indicator of the rite being successful. Whether or not there's some 'mage sense' that tingles, I don't think we're told. I'm guessing a Templar could tell if magical ability survived, and it's likely at least one of them would witness the Rite, them being mage-hunters and all. But you could introduce an anomoly. Maybe the brand isn't applied correctly and starts to wear off, or 'cracks'? Maybe some outside force intervenes, such as a (possibly benevolent) Fade spirit?

Sarah1281 wrote...

Why DO the Tranquil women have shaved heads? Or is it just the ones we see. Do they just not care about their
hair to the extent that they don't bother with it? Owain's not bald but  his hair is short as well.

Do they have the same faces? If so, I'd be tempted to say their template was just re-used. If not, I too am bemused... o_O

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 04 août 2010 - 07:50 .

[LupusYondergirl]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

LupusYondergirl wrote...

Lack of discipline I can understand, but the impression I got from Jowan was that he would have been made tranquil for lack of power (blood magic or no).

While this could be completely true, I confess to being a little leery at taking Jowan's suspicions at face value. He could have been right, he could have been paranoid, but given his later deceptions he could have been trying to garner sympathy. I just wish there was more info to go on...

Oh, I agree completely.  He's far from a reliable source at that point in time.  But the actual codex says " Those who fear to undertake this rite of passage, or those who are
deemed weak or unstable, are given the Rite of Tranquility instead."

It's the "weak OR unstable" bit that gets me, since it seems to be clear that simply not having enough power is a reason for them to make you tranquil.  The same codex also says the tranquil and their crafts are the source of all the wealth that sustains the tower, which makes me more suspicious.  If too many decent mages seemed to come of age at the same time would they start picking ones for the rite who would normally be allowed the harrowing simply because they need the money tranquil bring in?

[Sarah1281]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Well, there's no evidence for or against deliberately removing emotion. There's always a chance this result is beneficial, IMO, since magic and walking the Fade aware must be incredibly powerful feelings. How would it affect someone's mind and personality to remember they could once experience such things but then lose it all? In some sense it might be like losing your ability to fly, or not being able to hear music, or going colourblind.

I'd be hardpressed to think of ANYTHING that would be so upsetting that you'd be better off emotionless for the rest of your life.

Well, if the new Tranquil can work with lyrium that'd be a good indicator of the rite being successful. Whether or not there's some 'mage sense' that tingles, I don't think we're told. I'm guessing a Templar could tell if magical ability survived, and it's likely at least one of them would witness the Rite, them being mage-hunters and all. But you could introduce an anomoly. Maybe the brand isn't applied correctly and starts to wear off, or 'cracks'? Maybe some outside force intervenes, such as a (possibly benevolent) Fade spirit?

Why would new Tranquil know how to work wtih lyrium? I mean, Sandal can do it without his father teaching him so unless he was somehow involved with smithing I guess he'd have to rely on instincts. Lyrium exposure makes you understand how to work it better?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

Oh, I agree completely.  He's far from a reliable source at that point in time.  But the actual codex says " Those who fear to undertake this rite of passage, or those who are
deemed weak or unstable, are given the Rite of Tranquility instead."

It's the "weak OR unstable" bit that gets me, since it seems to be clear that simply not having enough power is a reason for them to make you tranquil.  The same codex also says the tranquil and their crafts are the source of all the wealth that sustains the tower, which makes me more suspicious.  If too many decent mages seemed to come of age at the same time would they start picking ones for the rite who would normally be allowed the harrowing simply because they need the money tranquil bring in?

Ooh, good points, especially on the financial score (forgot about the codex). That could be very muddy water indeed.

Sarah1281 wrote...
I'd be hardpressed to think of ANYTHING that would be so upsetting that you'd be better off emotionless for the rest of your life.

Again, individual opinion, I guess. Some people cope better than others.

I was just speculating though.

Sarah1281 wrote...
Why would new Tranquil know how to work wtih lyrium? I mean, Sandal can do it without his father teaching him so unless he was somehow involved with smithing I guess he'd have to rely on instincts. Lyrium exposure makes you understand how to work it better?

Maybe being able to survive lyrium exposure would be a better test than automatically being able to work with it? I don't know if the Tranquil have to teach each other how to do things or if it's instinctive, but I'd assume they have to learn.

Sandal is just an awesome freak of nature.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 04 août 2010 - 08:26 .

[Meyne]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Meyne wrote...

It could be that a mage who has limited  talent will become frustrated and more likely to be wooed by a demon or
by the promises of augmenting with Blood Magic.

This is very possibe. It's a moral slippery slope since, hey, not *everyone* who's mediocre will go that far, but lots of things in medieval-style times were of dubious ethicality.

Which is why I also mentioned there could be a bit of an individual basis.  Irving is the type of First Enchanter that follows the moderate school of thought (I think they said that in the Tower for the Mage Origins if you get nosy in the library), so I'd think he'd try his hardest to convince the Templars that a mage needs more time to work on his/her skills or that they are not a threat and stick them in a more administrative position (like the elf you can assist to get her signature for the rod).  If that didn't work, then he'd relent.  I'm sure it can vary - a First Enchanter that doesn't want to deal with issues might just cut any mage off after a certain point or may fight more with the Templars to protect fellow mages.

I kinda think it is the Templars that force the issue though, and that is where the situation falls into the dubious ethicality you mention.  Given how Templars are trained, they'd more likely get an itchy sword-hand if a mage isn't living up to standards or seems a little too eager but isn't making the cut - perfect type to go for the Harrowing and screw up in their minds, or risk even in their training a demonic possession.  Since the Templars are very involved in Tower life, they probably keep tabs on that sort of thing.  Even the call for Jowan to take the Rite came down from the Templars.

Modifié par Meyne, 04 août 2010 - 08:26 .

[Firky]

Well, if the new Tranquil can work with lyrium that'd be a good indicator of the rite being successful. Whether or not there's some 'mage sense' that tingles, I don't think we're told. I'm guessing a Templar could tell if magical ability survived, and it's likely at least one of them would witness the Rite, them being mage-hunters and all. But you could introduce an anomoly. Maybe the brand isn't applied correctly and starts to wear off, or 'cracks'? Maybe some outside force intervenes, such as a (possibly benevolent) Fade spirit?

I was guessing the Templars might have some sense about it. But would they all instantly know that a Tranquil wasn't really Tranquil or just if they were looking? 

The Fade spirit thing is a good idea but not consistent with where I'm going. (But I might have a quick look into it.)

Thanks for discussion all.

[Raonar]

I just got this really, and I mean REALLY good long-term idea for the story I'm writing and can't concentrate on my work anymore.

The horror....

sigh

Modifié par Raonar, 04 août 2010 - 12:03 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@Meyne - Yeah, that all makes sense to me. Shifting policies within the Tower is something I hadn't considered, with their various schools/fraternities.

@Firky - Short answer is we don't know. :/ There are mana draining spells/abilities out there, though, so I am of the opinion it wouldn't be hard to test if a subject still had a connection to the Fade. You could debate that a really tiny connection might avoid detection, or maybe even that the Templar attendant decides to look the other way for some reason. That's all I can think of right now.

@Raonar - Yep, I get that at work. It's annoying. Mostly because I want to stop working and write, but know I shouldn't. >.>

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 04 août 2010 - 12:20 .

[DreGregoire]

Well... Jowan you know... I consider him a scapegoat of sorts. You know how blood mages are rampant through the tower when you go back there? I think there is a possiblity that other blood mages used Jowans insecurities and recruited him to be a blood mage or at the very least directed him on what to read. I feel like there is much more to the tower than we are ever shown in game. Greagoir says he has a witness; whose to say that the witness wasn't using Jowan to divert the templar's attention from others using blood magic. Obviously the templars are not watching the mages every single moment. Ever talked to the old mage near the entrance in the library. He has some interesting things to say. Freezy chair is priceless, but he will also sign your paper for you if you agree to use the wand of fire on the lurking Templar who is always in the library. hahaha freezy chair!

We never do hear what the ratio of Templars to mages are but it would appear that there are many more mages than templars. And they do not appear to go into the quarters of the mages. So I'm going to go with the belief that yes Templars are a very visible in the tower; however, they are not watching every mage every second of the day.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 04 août 2010 - 03:14 .

[Sialater]

DreGregoire wrote...

Well... Jowan you know... I consider him a scapegoat of sorts. You know how blood mages are rampant through the tower when you go back there? I think there is a possiblity that other blood mages used Jowans insecurities and recruited him to be a blood mage or at the very least directed him on what to read. I feel like there is much more to the tower than we are ever shown in game. Greagoir says he has a witness; whose to say that the witness wasn't using Jowan to divert the templar's attention from others using blood magic. Obviously the templars are not watching the mages every single moment. Ever talked to the old mage near the entrance in the library. He has some interesting things to say. Freezy chair is priceless, but he will also sign your paper for you if you agree to use the wand of fire on the lurking Templar who is always in the library. hahaha freezy chair!

We never do hear what the ratio of Templars to mages are but it would appear that there are many more mages than templars. And they do not appear to go into the quarters of the mages.

True, just Cullen to watch FemSurana or FemAmell....

[DreGregoire]

Sialater wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Well... Jowan you know... I consider him a scapegoat of sorts. You know how blood mages are rampant through the tower when you go back there? I think there is a possiblity that other blood mages used Jowans insecurities and recruited him to be a blood mage or at the very least directed him on what to read. I feel like there is much more to the tower than we are ever shown in game. Greagoir says he has a witness; whose to say that the witness wasn't using Jowan to divert the templar's attention from others using blood magic. Obviously the templars are not watching the mages every single moment. Ever talked to the old mage near the entrance in the library. He has some interesting things to say. Freezy chair is priceless, but he will also sign your paper for you if you agree to use the wand of fire on the lurking Templar who is always in the library. hahaha freezy chair!

We never do hear what the ratio of Templars to mages are but it would appear that there are many more mages than templars. And they do not appear to go into the quarters of the mages.

True, just Cullen to watch FemSurana or FemAmell....

Well I'm not so sure Cullen wasn't just there to congrats your pc because if you embarass him he runs off which he wouldn't do if he was posted there He likes you... he wants to kiss you, but you know you're a mage he's a templar. You'll just have to pretend later with Alistair roflmao

Modifié par DreGregoire, 04 août 2010 - 03:19 .

[Sialater]

DreGregoire wrote...

Sialater wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Well... Jowan you know... I consider him a scapegoat of sorts. You know how blood mages are rampant through the tower when you go back there? I think there is a possiblity that other blood mages used Jowans insecurities and recruited him to be a blood mage or at the very least directed him on what to read. I feel like there is much more to the tower than we are ever shown in game. Greagoir says he has a witness; whose to say that the witness wasn't using Jowan to divert the templar's attention from others using blood magic. Obviously the templars are not watching the mages every single moment. Ever talked to the old mage near the entrance in the library. He has some interesting things to say. Freezy chair is priceless, but he will also sign your paper for you if you agree to use the wand of fire on the lurking Templar who is always in the library. hahaha freezy chair!

We never do hear what the ratio of Templars to mages are but it would appear that there are many more mages than templars. And they do not appear to go into the quarters of the mages.

True, just Cullen to watch FemSurana or FemAmell....

Well I'm not so sure Cullen wasn't just there to congrats your pc because if you embarass him he runs off which he wouldn't do if he was posted there He likes you... he wants to kiss you, but you know you're a mage he's a templar. You'll just have to pretend later with Alistair roflmao

Moira does, but that's beside the point.  If you stand still in the room you wake up in after your Harrowing, you'll hear a couple of apprentices wondering if the Templars watch when they bathe.  And that Cullen was suspiciously proud of your survival.

[jenncgf]

DreGregoire wrote...

Well... Jowan you know... I consider him a scapegoat of sorts. You know how blood mages are rampant through the tower when you go back there? I think there is a possiblity that other blood mages used Jowans insecurities and recruited him to be a blood mage or at the very least directed him on what to read. I feel like there is much more to the tower than we are ever shown in game. Greagoir says he has a witness; whose to say that the witness wasn't using Jowan to divert the templar's attention from others using blood magic. Obviously the templars are not watching the mages every single moment. Ever talked to the old mage near the entrance in the library. He has some interesting things to say. Freezy chair is priceless, but he will also sign your paper for you if you agree to use the wand of fire on the lurking Templar who is always in the library. hahaha freezy chair!

We never do hear what the ratio of Templars to mages are but it would appear that there are many more mages than templars. And they do not appear to go into the quarters of the mages. So I'm going to go with the belief that yes Templars are a very visible in the tower; however, they are not watching every mage every second of the day.

Also, on Irving's desk, if you look at his journal, you see that he talks about Uldred's "spot the maleficar" sense and how GOOD Uldred is at it.  He trusts Uldred extra because of it, if I'm not mistaken.

I suspect that Uldred is helping to weed out the "problem" cases (ones that aren't in Uldred's direct control) and he ratted out Jowan to both Irving and Greagoir.  Jowan, poor hapless soul that he is, could have been manipulated directly by Uldred or one of the mages close to him and then turned over by Uldred himself.

And we all already know that Uldred is a miserable sot. 

[DreGregoire]

Sialater wrote...

If you stand still in the room you wake up in after your Harrowing, you'll hear a couple of apprentices wondering if the Templars watch when they bathe. 

LOL they are wondering about it but they don't know it to be true. My guess it's just their pervish... lala... anyways. What was I talking about... er nevermind *winks*

Modifié par DreGregoire, 04 août 2010 - 04:11 .

[DreGregoire]

jenncgf wrote...

Also, on Irving's desk, if you look at his journal, you see that he talks about Uldred's "spot the maleficar" sense and how GOOD Uldred is at it.  He trusts Uldred extra because of it, if I'm not mistaken.

I suspect that Uldred is helping to weed out the "problem" cases (ones that aren't in Uldred's direct control) and he ratted out Jowan to both Irving and Greagoir.  Jowan, poor hapless soul that he is, could have been manipulated directly by Uldred or one of the mages close to him and then turned over by Uldred himself.

And we all already know that Uldred is a miserable sot. 

Ah I had forgotten about that journal entry that was a bit naive of Irving, and now I believe even more strongly that Jowan was doped dangit I'm gonna bring Uldred back and slay him all over again. GRRRRR. Oh wait I never did actually get to kill uldred just the ack that took him over *sighs* Maybe I can find him in the fade!

Modifié par DreGregoire, 04 août 2010 - 04:11 .

[Maria13]

In my fic I've set out that sometimes being made tranquil can be done for "political" reasons or out of spite, after all that would hardly be surprising, it was often what was done with lobotomies... Frances Farmer, anyone? Suddenly Last Summer?

*Well apparently FF did not have a lobotomy however, I stick to my guns and say lobotomies were often used with "inconvenient" people, especially women and racial minorities...

Modifié par Maria13, 04 août 2010 - 07:06 .

[LupusYondergirl]

The mental health system has been used for political purposes for years. Political dissidents were declared insane and locked up in the soviet union, as were conscientious objectors in America during WWII. It was used, or threatened, against suffragettes, civil rights activists, all sorts of people who threatened the status quo.

So yeah, I can absolutely see a particularly vocal or pain in the ass libertarian apprentice being made tranquil just to shut them up.

[Maria13]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

The mental health system has been used for political purposes for years. Political dissidents were declared insane and locked up in the soviet union, as were conscientious objectors in America during WWII. It was used, or threatened, against suffragettes, civil rights activists, all sorts of people who threatened the status quo.
So yeah, I can absolutely see a particularly vocal or pain in the ass libertarian apprentice being made tranquil just to shut them up.

All good FF fodder that... Chantry suppressing dissidence...

[Miri1984]

The whole idea of the Rite of Tranquility makes my flesh creep. I had Jowan made tranquil in my Neria/Anders fic and I really don't want to have to write her going back to the Tower because of it. She has to go though...



On another note, I've been writing by hand because my back is stuffed with the whole pregnancy thing and now I am filled with typing ennui. I have a chapter of Shades of Grey ready and I really want to post it but I think I need to hire a typist! The only problem is no one else in the universe can read my handwriting... *sigh*.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Too bad that dicta-type programs aren't that reliable. You might need to get someone to type for you while you read out your work.



re: Rite of Tranquility, this is just making me feel even more sorry for mages under the Chantry. >.< And good point about Uldred diverting attention from himself to blood mage 'dabblers'. Urgh.

[Gilgamesh1138]

@aw sorry Miri! *sends Anders with his magic fingers to rub Miri's back*