10369 réponses à ce sujet

[soignee]

JHByrne wrote...


For all those who still insist on sexing up the Wardens... consider a central premise of BEING a Grey Warden: they drink DarkSpawn blood. Their blood is INFECTED. Presumeably, all of their bodily fluids are also INFECTED. So, sex with a Grey Warden is a sort of death sentence by itself, yes?

Kind of kills the romance, if the romance kills you.

Ah, I don't just write about romance and sexy funtimessssss. I write about....

*strikes heroic pose*

DWARF sexy fun times!

I even draw it. A lot.

*still has heroic pose while brandishing a crayon*

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...
Romantic subplots drive drama, and that holds true across pretty much all genres of fiction.  If fanfiction focuses a lot on the romance, it's because the main story arc is already defined, so what you're doing is coloring in between the lines.  Since the characters in Dragon Age are pulled out of most of their other primary relationships and thrown together, the romantic story lines are the primary ways in which to explore character.  That's how I see it, anyway.

A romantic story line can help explore characters but I think that the reasons that they might have from abstaining (whether because they're asexual, horribly traumatized, not over someone else, unhappy with the race/gender combinations available, more focused on ending the Blight or righting the wrong done to them in origin, or just don't like their three options all that much) from such a relationship can flesh out a character just as well.

[LupusYondergirl]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Romantic subplots drive drama, and that holds true across pretty much all genres of fiction.  If fanfiction focuses a lot on the romance, it's because the main story arc is already defined, so what you're doing is coloring in between the lines.  Since the characters in Dragon Age are pulled out of most of their other primary relationships and thrown together, the romantic story lines are the primary ways in which to explore character.  That's how I see it, anyway.

A romantic story line can help explore characters but I think that the reasons that they might have from abstaining (whether because they're asexual, horribly traumatized, not over someone else, unhappy with the race/gender combinations available, more focused on ending the Blight or righting the wrong done to them in origin, or just don't like their three options all that much) from such a relationship can flesh out a character just as well.

That's very true. But, in both cases, you're acknowledging that romance and sex are normal parts of any adult's life, either by including it or making a point of detailing why it isn't happening. Although we're writing about fantasy universes we have to assume a certain degree of humanity for all of the races, and humans are by their nature social animals. We form tribes, we bond with others. We're really just monkeys, for all our fancy clothes and computers. And since sex is the means by which our species continues on, well, not many urges are going to be stronger than that.

I like how, in your story, you have Aunn openly talk about how she couldn't be with any of the companions because they're humans/elves, and her dealing with Gorim getting married so quickly. For a princess from Orzammar, and that princess in specific, it makes sense. Having it just become a non-issue would be odd, but you do a great job showing her thought process on why it simply can't happen. To me, that's the same as a romance in terms of what it does for the character since it addresses that it is a major part of life. It doesn't seem odd that there's no romance because we see and understand exactly why.

If someone just didn't including anything, and wrote as though sex and relationships simply didn't exist, I think it creates an unrealistic characterization.

[Corker]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

If someone just didn't including anything, and wrote as though sex and relationships simply didn't exist, I think it creates an unrealistic characterization.

I don't know.  I don't think it's til "Lords and Ladies" that the reader learns that Esme Weatherwax ever had anything remotely approaching an interest in a coupled life, and I consider her one of the best-realized characters I've ever read.

Of course, other characters do pursue these things; I'm not sure if you're arguing that the author has to show that they exist in the world, or that the protagonist has to deal with them. 

[Maria13]

Corker wrote...

LupusYondergirl wrote...

If someone just didn't including anything, and wrote as though sex and relationships simply didn't exist, I think it creates an unrealistic characterization.

I don't know.  I don't think it's til "Lords and Ladies" that the reader learns that Esme Weatherwax ever had anything remotely approaching an interest in a coupled life, and I consider her one of the best-realized characters I've ever read.

Of course, other characters do pursue these things; I'm not sure if you're arguing that the author has to show that they exist in the world, or that the protagonist has to deal with them. 

But to an extent this would support what Lupus is saying because Granny Weatherwax is contrasted with Nanny Ogg who does have a hell of a lot of relationships.  At the same time the fact that she is a virgin in old age and a relatively happy one is something put forward by Pratchett as a bit of a curiousity.  Additionally, one of the main plot devices deployed in Lords and Ladies is precisely the King and his fiancee developing a sexual relationship that is suitable for them. I would say that Pratchett is showing that sex and relationships exist and that everybody even asexual Granny has to deal with that fact.

Great Chaucer quote BTW.

Modifié par Maria13, 19 août 2010 - 06:53 .

[Corker]

Maria13 wrote...

 I would say that Pratchett is showing that sex and relationships exist and that everybody even asexual Granny has to deal with that fact.

*nods*  I agree; Pratchett definitely deals a whole spectrum of relationships on the Disc, some of which occur in close proximity to Granny.  But as far as Granny's own characterization goes, I don't need to see her reflect upon her own romantic entanglements, or lack thereof, to consider her a full character.  They don't need explained... or maybe it's better to say that the rest of Granny's characterization explains it by showing.  There are, as far as she's concerned for herself, More Important Things To Do.

And that might be exactly what LupusYonderGirl is saying... I am honestly not sure if she's talking about setting or individual characterizations, because I can kind of read the statement either way.  I agree from a setting POV, but not so much for individual characters.  I think you can characterize them without reference to sex or romance. 

Maria13 wrote...
Great Chaucer quote BTW.

Glad you liked it. 

[Raonar]

My hits on FF.net just retroactively adjusted, making them go up by about 1,500 or more in the last hour or so (they're at 3,024 right now).



How funny, no?



And about the romance thing, I think it depends on just how deeply the writer goes into everything else too. Still, ignoring the theme completely would, in my opinion, impact on the credibility and the overall potential for immersion of the tale.

[LupusYondergirl]

No, that is exactly what I'm saying. The original post was talking about how romance, in any form, had no place in the DA world. I was saying that's a huge part of life and pretending it just didn't exist anywhere would be unrealistic.
I think, for individual characters, it is unusual to portray them as completely asexual. But when it's done well, like Pratchett does, that in and of itself becomes part of the characterization, since it is shown as something of an oddity, not just ignored utterly.

And I have to second the chaucer quote, too.  I HATED chaucer in high school.  When I read it in college and actually had a professor who explained the slang (and didn't censor half the book) I was like "this is FANTASTIC!  It's FILTHY!"

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 19 août 2010 - 07:32 .

[Maria13]

Corker wrote...


*nods*  I agree; Pratchett definitely deals a whole spectrum of relationships on the Disc, some of which occur in close proximity to Granny.  But as far as Granny's own characterization goes, I don't need to see her reflect upon her own romantic entanglements, or lack thereof, to consider her a full character.  They don't need explained... or maybe it's better to say that the rest of Granny's characterization explains it by showing.  There are, as far as she's concerned for herself, More Important Things To Do.

Yes, but I remember having (appropriately) a WTF moment when I realised why Granny could tame the unicorn...  I had to explain it to my SO I seem to recall... "It's because she's a virgin", now until then the reader is not aware that Granny is the V word and it makes an impact precisely because of the fact that it "ain't normal" and that completes her characterization.

Glad you liked it. 

Oh I do... Kissing her arse.... Ha! And then Alyson farts doesn't she [edited for tasteless comments suggest anyone curious reads the relevant passage themselves]...

Modifié par Maria13, 19 août 2010 - 09:35 .

[Miri1984]

I love the way Pratchett deals with sex, actually. It's such a non-issue for most of his characters - except for Nanny, because there are OTHER things going on. Vimes and Sybil are just gorgeous together - and I LOVE Moist and Adora.



And I can't believe you guys had a Terry Pratchett conversation when I was asleep. Meh to you all. If I ever felt even SLIGHTLY inclined to go back to Uni I'd do a Phd on the man.

[Maria13]

Miri1984 wrote...

I love the way Pratchett deals with sex, actually. It's such a non-issue for most of his characters - except for Nanny, because there are OTHER things going on. Vimes and Sybil are just gorgeous together - and I LOVE Moist and Adora.

And I can't believe you guys had a Terry Pratchett conversation when I was asleep. Meh to you all. If I ever felt even SLIGHTLY inclined to go back to Uni I'd do a Phd on the man.

Don't forget Carrot and Angua! "... and then the earth moved..."

[soignee]

Just here to show my Pratchett love read everything he's pretty much done.

[Maria13]

soignee wrote...

Just here to show my Pratchett love read everything he's pretty much done.

And apart from anything else, the guy is bloody brave!!!

[Miri1984]

I cried when I found out he had Alzheimer's.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Ok, so maybe I'll answer more seriously this time.

JHByrne wrote...

Ah, but I DO live in the present. Lots of adventures to tell, and others to never say a word about! Sure, history is fun... but I don't recall too many history books focused on the sex lives of well-known names in history. History is all about who did WHAT, not WHOM.

History is *rife* with who did whom. The history books you've read may not focus solely on the sex, but it is present.

In a like sense, not all fan fiction focusses on sex/romance (but these are harder to find, if only because it's easier to get published on the internet than as a paperback).

So, why bother with computer games? Well, some are pretty well written, others 'explore' a piece of history, others are more fantasy. It's all good... but think about it: what about 'exploring another life' need involve sex as more than a sideline?

I thought the sex in Dragon Age *was* a sideline. You don't need to romance anyone to finish the game. You don't even need to do the Dark (sex) Ritual to finish the game.

But romance/love/sex is a part of everyday life, some people enjoy to roleplay that, so the option is there.

The Dragon Age characters are all fairly warped, in one way or another. Their central 'mission' involves a death march, with no retirement plan. Whatever your character class, you're a suicidal homicide, bent on saving your little corner of Ferelden, and slaughtering all sorts of critters. Sex, by comparison, is something that any peasant can do, so why bother exploring it overmuch?

Why not? With all the slaughter, saving people and walking to your inevitable death, why wouldn't it be natural for some people to explore one nice, normal thing that exists amidst all the horror?

Not that all authors do this, or focus their entire stories on smut, but what makes you think they do? Have you read many of the well-known and well-written DA fics out there, or making assumptions based on the Letters to Leliana competition? (I can't say I know how many of those entries revolved around sex; I didn't enter).

For all those who still insist on sexing up the Wardens... consider a central premise of BEING a Grey Warden: they drink DarkSpawn blood. Their blood is INFECTED. Presumeably, all of their bodily fluids are also INFECTED. So, sex with a Grey Warden is a sort of death sentence by itself, yes?

Kind of kills the romance, if the romance kills you.

Your theory about sex with Grey Wardens = death by taint is incorrect, I believe, but let's assume it isn't. Why would it kill the romance? Plenty of romance novels use the threat of possible death to *increase* romantic sentiment with the whole tragedy deal. Then the Warden and his/her tainted lover can go on one last march into the Deep Roads and die together in a beautifully moving montage, declaring their love with their dying breaths. /melodrama, but no less true

(To those who smiled thanks to Z&A, hooray! this makes me happy.)

[jackkel dragon]

SoLD said it better than I could. As I said before, I'm deliberately avoiding sex as a feature in my current fanfic.
If I wanted to read about sex, I'd go buy a real book. It might even have pictures!
...I'm ashamed of my own joke...

Edit: Based on the information from the game, darkspawn blood is not equal to ghoul/warden blood. Though the "dark fantasy" could have been pushed if Warden/non Warden sex killed...

Modifié par jackkel dragon, 19 août 2010 - 10:55 .

[JHByrne]

Wow. So, I just read through all the 'I hate JHByrne' posts. Amazing. Here's one naysayer, and it starts an avalanche of protest. Methinks you doth protest... too much?



With that said, I will admit, I've not read one sentence of fanfiction. Sure, I'm familiar with Chaucer. And De Sade. And Ben Franklin. In the course of playing a dark fantasy computer game, however, it never occurred to me to dwell overmuch on the romance/sex aspect, as I'm well aware that the game itself is 95% 'kill the baddies' and 5% 'romance'. It just perplexes me that people would spend that much time focusing on the 5%, particularly considering that there are so many other interesting plotlines to explore, rather than who is 'pairing up' with whom.



History, as written by Herodotus, Xenophon, Tacitus, Gibbon, Tuchman, Churchill, et al, does feature sex/romance, but it doesn't focus on it. Fantasy/Heroic Fantasy, as written by RE Howard, Wagner, Lovecraft, Haggard, L'Amour, Verne, etc, also doesn't focus on the sex lives of the protagonist. I mean, does anyone REALLY want to read about Conan the Barbarian reading poetry like some fruity Aquilonian? It's the focus of current-day fanfiction that surprises me.



It's like Danielle Steele wanted to take a walk on the wild side... oh wait, she did! (inquiring minds may recall that the above spent half her adult life writing torrid romance novels, the other half torridly romancing lifer prisoners).



To sum it all up: if you want to write fanfiction, well, go to it! However, why not go to your neighborhood bookstore, buy a couple of torrid romance novels, figure out the basic structure, and then write your own, and get paid for it?

Getting paid for what you write is a great thing -- I've made quite a bit of money at it, in fiction and non-fiction. The vast number of replies to my brief missive is a case in point: clearly, there are enough fans out there for the fiction... so if there's a market for it, why not figure out some way to make a dollar at it (and thereby purchase your next edition of DA, etc).



-- JHByrne



PS: okay, so I see my point about 'the taint' has some folks riled up. I'm strictly working from 'what we know' about the taint, as established in the games.

1) DA:O, before the battle of Ostagar, has the veteran sergeant warning all the green recruits 'not to touch the DS genlock, we're going to burn it... '

2) the Mabari hound at Ostagar is sick from ingesting too much DS blood. How much is too much??

3) Branka's female captain/lover is clearly infected, and dying, from massive overexposure to DS taint. Again, how much is 'too much'?

4) Warden's Keep DLC features 'the power of blood' abilities, which typically feature 'spray tainted blood'. Clearly, Warden blood has some noxious qualities.



Sure, sure, I get the 'star crossed lovers' routine. But, I dunno... would any of YOU really be eager to jump into bed with your bf/gf if you KNEW he/she had a case of hepatitis, etc? Fantasy is a twist on reality, yes, but you must start with reality, yes?

[Sarah1281]

And yet you'd think that if it were the case that Wardens could **** someone to death that they would realize it by now and have made some mention of it in-game so you don't accidentally kill your LI.



I am a little curious, if you've never read any fanfiction and don't seem to have any intention to, as to why you're even here. This is a thread about fanfiction. You seem kind of...ill-suited for it. Also, if you've never read any fanfiction then what makes you think we're all obsessing over romance? Some stories do focus heavily on romance (and so do some books) but there is also a non-romance plot involved if it's longer than a short story.



I'm not sure you're really the best judge of what should or should not be in fanfiction since, as you've conceded, you really know nothing about it.

[jackkel dragon]

Fanfiction allows people to write what they're interested in... which is sometimes not what I want to read. Fine, I guess. I try to be more "professional" with my fanfiction, even though the material is copyrighted and I can't make money off it. Practice for when I finally write my magnus opus I've been planning since forever...



JHByrne: I don't think those posts were hating on you, but some of your points are uncomfortable to think about when you do something like writing fanfiction. People write fanfiction to focus on the things the source material didn't focus on, especially romance and psycological problems. Then we have the "smut"... Point being, some people just like to write about their favorite source material, even when they have other things to do.



I'll withdraw from the tainted blood discussion, as that's for another thread. It's simply that there is little to no evidence that Grey Wardens can spread the taint, as Grey Warden/non Grey Warden children are born without any trace of the taint. (Alistair is thought to be the son of a Grey Warden by some fans, like me, but he still needed the Joining to become tainted. Maric never got the taint, even after being in the Deep Roads and "romancing" a Grey Warden. Then again, could be his anti-taint sword.)

[DreGregoire]

To JHByrne:

People write fanfiction because they enjoy doing so and other people enjoying reading it. Not everybody is out to make a buck. Some people just enjoy writing to write. My fanfiction so far has little or nothing to do with romance; however, there are plenty that do and I enjoy reading other peoples visions of Dragon age, so I will continue to read more and write more.

The grey warden modified taint (unlike the one that comes from darkspawn exposure) cannot be passed on to an intimate partner or to those around you.

I hope that helps answer your question as to why I would spend my time on it

Modifié par DreGregoire, 20 août 2010 - 12:36 .

[DreGregoire]

I've decided I hate waiting for new chapters to come out. LOL. I've watched 10 different anime stories, played dragon age, read some finished fanfiction, done some writing, more anime and still waiting. LOL. Drives me nuts.

[Miri1984]

Fanfiction is a hobby that is shared in a community. No one HAS to read it. No one HAS to write it. I personally love doing both, and will continue to do so until I stop loving to do both. I also love curry and fried haloumi cheese. Make of that what you will.

[Corker]

*hat in hand*

Everyone, I'm sorry.  I know the first rule is not to feed the trolls.  But dammit, somebody is WRONG on the Internet and for once I'm not going to be the last one to show up at Loch Lomond.

JHByrne wrote...

 Fantasy/Heroic Fantasy, as written by RE Howard, Wagner, Lovecraft, Haggard, L'Amour, Verne, etc, also doesn't focus on the sex lives of the protagonist. I mean, does anyone REALLY want to read about Conan the Barbarian reading poetry like some fruity Aquilonian? It's the focus of current-day fanfiction that surprises me.

It's like Danielle Steele wanted to take a walk on the wild side... oh wait, she did!

Right.  Because male-authored genre fiction, catering to what male readers (because really, doesn't everybody read male authors?  I mean, men are practically gender-neutral!) want to see, is inherently superior to female-authored genre fiction, catering to what female readers want to see.  Because what women want to write or read about is far, far less worthy of attention.  It's just dumb emotions and stuff.  There certainly can't *possibly* be any room for fiction that at once exults in the wonder and spectacle of fantasy or the vision and energy of SF and *also* focuses on romance, love and possibly, possibly even sex.  Because that would be, like, dividing by zero.

Oh, that's not what you're saying?  Then be a little less freaking patronizing.

JHByrne wrote...
To sum it all up: if you want to write fanfiction, well, go to it!

Oh, gosh!  Thanks for your permission!

...oh, you didn't mean it that way, either?  See above, re: patronizing.  You came in here to tell us how great you are because you won a fan fic contest, but you don't write fan fic, because it's so lame.  That's class.  Really. 

If you want to have an actual discussion on the themes and motifs in fan fiction, and why some predominate, and what the attraction is to writing for other people's characters... you could just ask those questions.  Without pre-judging and trivializing the answers.  Surely such a smart guy as yourself understands that a real conversation is predicated on listening with respect, not lecturing with condescention.

One is forced to conclude that you are either not such a smart guy, or else you are just here to troll. 

JHByrne wrote...
However, why not go to your neighborhood bookstore, buy a couple of
torrid romance novels, figure out the basic structure, and then write
your own, and get paid for it?

Because not everyone who  likes writing has the chops or the desire to be a professional writer.   Some folks like to write short form.  Some folks like the creative leg-up using an established IP gives them.  Some folks need a copy of Strunk and White.  Some need an editor.  Some are freakin' sixteen years old and just need practice.

But, hey, they've found some people who like what they write!  So they write more!  And everybody's happy! 

If you think it's a foolish exercise in self-gratification, that's your perogative.  But... this is the Internet.  Fanfic is hardly the most exotic form of self-gratification out there, nor even the saddest.  Take, for example, trolling...

[Sarah1281]

Someone I know discovered my penname and is about to read one of my fanfics. This should be interesting...

[DreGregoire]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Someone I know discovered my penname and is about to read one of my fanfics. This should be interesting...

uhoh *I'm keeping my fingers crossed that all goes well*