10369 réponses à ce sujet

[sabreene]

JHByrne wrote...

Patronizing?  Whatever.  Didn't someone here once make the comment that if a writer can't take a bit of critique, s/he should not be a writer?
Backpedaling?  Not at all.  I stand by what I write, or I wouldn't write it in the first place. 
Why should I be patronizing/insulting, etc to someone I've never met?  Why should I backpedal if I don't recognize it as an insult?

In the case of Corker's commentary, I make exception.  I scoff in his/her general direction.

All the writers here take critique very well, and seem to welcome it. However, you weren''t offering a critique of their work -- you were offering a critique on the fact they choose to write fanfiction in the first place.  Or rather, fanfiction with elements of romance.

That's very similar to the people who dismiss the whole genre of science fiction as not being worth the time to be read or written. Also very similar to my grandfather, who dismisses any music made after 1949 as being "noise", and not music at all.

It's an opinion, and he's entitled to it, just as you are entitled to yours. But don't expect people not to defend themselves when your comments seem to dismiss something they put a lot of time and energy into.  You may not agree with it, or understand why they like it, but that doesn't make it any less valid than the things you choose to put your time into.

Fanfiction doesn't equal "torrid romance novel" any more than music that came after 1950 equals "noise". There are many genres, just like there are in both music and published fiction. Many contain elements of romance, and for the 'why' of that you just need to look to the game itself, and how it was written.  For a lot of players the relationships are the driving force of the game, or at least the reason they play the game over again.

To me, writing/reading fanfiction is much the same as music. I may never make money as a musician, but that doesn't mean I can't take enjoyment from playing in my spare time. Likewise, while I might listen to published artists more frequently, there is something to be said for a garage band or a new cover of an old song.

And while personally there are a lot of songs I just don't get, I wouldn't dismiss anyone else for liking them. I'd also hope they wouldn't dismiss me for getting excited every time I hear a Violent Femmes song. Think I'm quirky, maybe, but not dismiss me.

[FutileSine]

Well said Sabreene!

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Romantic subplots drive drama, and that holds true across pretty much all genres of fiction.  If fanfiction focuses a lot on the romance, it's because the main story arc is already defined, so what you're doing is coloring in between the lines.  Since the characters in Dragon Age are pulled out of most of their other primary relationships and thrown together, the romantic story lines are the primary ways in which to explore character.  That's how I see it, anyway.

A romantic story line can help explore characters but I think that the reasons that they might have from abstaining (whether because they're asexual, horribly traumatized, not over someone else, unhappy with the race/gender combinations available, more focused on ending the Blight or righting the wrong done to them in origin, or just don't like their three options all that much) from such a relationship can flesh out a character just as well.

I should have qualified that romance subplots are one driver of character and drama, and in the case of DA, a primary one.  Even the examples you give are romance-driven, just in the negative.  It doesn't have to have kissy stuff for sex and love to be a dramatic hook.

I wouldn't even say romance plots are my favorite.  I'm grabbed more by parent-child or mentor-child stuff.  Also non-romantic friendship can be very powerful.  Most of us write a range of stuff, I think?  I haven't read everyone's yet by a long shot, but speaking for my own, a major "character" is magic, and the Morrigan relationship with my femPC.

Anyway, the troll is getting far too much attention (it's funny that he thinks he's offered "critique", heh), but regardless, it's fun to read others' perspective on fanfiction.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 août 2010 - 03:06 .

[Sialater]

JH: Piers Anthony wrote the Xanth novels. He may be a fantasy legend, but he's not in same league as Pratchett. Try Google, or Wikipedia. I hear they're rather useful resources.





And yes, you're patronizing.

[JHByrne]

To those who think I'm patronizing: tough sh*t. Grow a pair.



Anyway, my original observation wasn't about 'fanfiction in general'. The guppies are clearly feeding off of one another.



I pretty much made two commentaries: one, that 20,000+ words was a LOT to write, especially considering that the original characters of the computer game didn't have a lot of depth of personality. How could they, when their entire dialogue script couldn't have been more than 50-75 lines per character. Look at Wikipedia's DA hints, in 'dialogue', you'll see what I mean.



I could understand filling in some of the backstory from the codex entries. It just seems to me that there's a lot more to go on there, than a couple of lines of scripted dialogue.



I did raise a question (although stated not in exact question form) about the possibility of 'romance' in Drag Age. It's bloody impossible! Sex, sure, I guess... but...romance???

Sure, it's a fantasy game, so we suspend reality a bit. Well, a LOT. But even the smarmy Leliana complains about the mud, flies, blood, danger, etc.



Have any of you ever been in a field environment? It SUCKS. You have no time for thoughts about romance... there's dirt all around you, everyone stinks, you're all grouchy and tired and hungry, and by the way, you've got guard duty at 2 AM, so your whole sleep/eat schedule is shot to heck. Sex in 'the field' means a quickie behind the bushes, if you're the kind who has the stomach for that.



Compound it with the notion that your character is a mass murderer. Everyone in DA:O is a mass murderer, but the Warden especially so...! What part of 'gee, honey, how many people did you slaughter today?' not get through in the memo?



So... am I being 'patronizing'? Well, are you being bloody obtuse???

[Sarah1281]

Yes and it's the same with S***, W****, F***, ... Which I (and others) use in my FF, frankly it's not all girly stuff...

I've noticed that, too. It's really stupid if it's being used in a not-even-remotely-adult manner so even though I much prefer using the phrase 'cocked her head' I've recently been using tilted to avoid overzealous censorship.

[Sialater]

JH: Allow me to repeat my original statment:



Why the hell did you play a game where you GET ACHIEVEMENTS FOR TAKING FOUR DIFFERENT CHARACTERS TO BED?

[SurelyForth]

 

I pretty much made two commentaries: one, that 20,000+ words was a LOT to write, especially considering that the original characters of the computer game didn't have a lot of depth of personality. How could they, when their entire dialogue script couldn't have been more than 50-75 lines per character. Look at Wikipedia's DA hints, in 'dialogue', you'll see what I mean.

Have you ever looked inside the toolset? I'd say that Bann Teagan has more than 50-75 different lines. Alistair has close to 20 different lines in the dialogue you can have about his mother's amulet alone. I'd say just the Landsmeet conversations (all variations) exceeds your 50-75 lines estimate quite handily.

[Sarah1281]

JHByrne wrote...
I pretty much made two commentaries: one, that 20,000+ words was a LOT to write, especially considering that the original characters of the computer game didn't have a lot of depth of personality. How could they, when their entire dialogue script couldn't have been more than 50-75 lines per character. Look at Wikipedia's DA hints, in 'dialogue', you'll see what I mean.

I could understand filling in some of the backstory from the codex entries. It just seems to me that there's a lot more to go on there, than a couple of lines of scripted dialogue.

I still don't see why it's the much to write. Only some fanfiction is dedicated to 'filling in the blanks' like, say, explaining to Eamon what's been happening while he was unconscious. We know it happens, we just don't see it. Other things can be prequels to the game, novelizatoin of the game, sequels to it, AU, things about completely different characters...20,000 words isn't really all that much. I mean, you can get 2-3K from a single conversation, easy.

I did raise a question (although stated not in exact question form) about the possibility of 'romance' in Drag Age. It's bloody impossible! Sex, sure, I guess... but...romance???
Sure, it's a fantasy game, so we suspend reality a bit. Well, a LOT. But even the smarmy Leliana complains about the mud, flies, blood, danger, etc.

Have any of you ever been in a field environment? It SUCKS. You have no time for thoughts about romance... there's dirt all around you, everyone stinks, you're all grouchy and tired and hungry, and by the way, you've got guard duty at 2 AM, so your whole sleep/eat schedule is shot to heck. Sex in 'the field' means a quickie behind the bushes, if you're the kind who has the stomach for that.

You know, it really sounds, from your description, that the sex would be more inconvenient than the romance. Personally, I don't write romance but I've read it in other people's stories. Why would being in a situation where sex might be awkward prevent hormones or flirting? And you're not in the wilderness the entire year that you're ending the Blight, just when you travel from place to place. I'm sure you can find lodgins in Denerim even before Eamon comes to town, there's an inn at lake Calenhad and quarters available at the Tower once you clear that out, with the Dalish you would need to stay outside but so does the entire clan and that doesn't stop them from reproducing, at Orzammar you're given quarters in the Diamond Quarter, at Redcliffe you can stay at the Arl's estate.

If sex on the road is really a problem, there's plenty of other places to have it and the characters don't need to sleep with each other non-stop to have a romance.

Compound it with the notion that your character is a mass murderer. Everyone in DA:O is a mass murderer, but the Warden especially so...! What part of 'gee, honey, how many people did you slaughter today?' not get through in the memo?

Are you really such a mass-murderer? At Redcliffe you mostly kill zombies, at Orzammra it's mostly darkspawn, with the Dalish it's mostly rabid werewolves, at the Tower it's mostly demons and abominations. There's also the miscellaneous creatures like bears and wolves you need to kill.

There are some humans/elves/dwarves/qunari you kill but in nearly all cases, you're acting in self-defense. The refugees in Lothering? They ambush you. Bhelen/Harrowmont fanatics? Likewise. Zevran's followers? Ditto. The possessed templars and blood mages? The former is unfortunate but there's not much you can do and the blood mages are trying to kill you. Maybe you could argue that the criminal carta wouldn't have attacked you if you didn't barge into their lair but that's really one group that was hardly innocent and, regardless of their socioeconomic reasons, have been terrorizing the rest of Orzammar for weeks. Trying to arrest them was unfeasible and given their crimes and their casteless status they only would have been arrested anyway.

So yes, you kill things. Not all of them are exactly sentient and those that are usually attack you first. Those who you at least go looking for them before they try to kill you are done because, in order to stop the Blight, you need them dead. I don't see why any of your party members, no strangers to death themselves and who may even have been helping you kill them, would be at all repulsed by you doing what you have to do.

[Sandtigress]

lol The tl;dr version of all that is.... "Ur doin' it wrong!!!!!!!"



As far as tagging woes go though, I've wondered what people are going to say to the turn that my main fic is about to take (as soon as I get my muse to start working on the rest of the current chapter... >.>) since it is about to go on a romantic take. It's not tagged as a romance though because the romance isn't the main idea. The fic is mostly about how a Dalish handles living in a non-Dalish world and so a burgeoning romance with a non-Dalish is indeed a Really Big Deal. But of course the romance isn't the main point, rather it's how it affects her character development and view of the world and it's affect on her relationship with her people and what not.

It's marked as an Alistair/Mahariel so it's probably not unexpected, but I wonder if people will complain about it becoming a main focus for the next bit. That's mostly for length issues though, and because I don't want to cover the Origins specific plot-line in detail...it's easy enough to tell people the details they need to know in small hints rather than spell them out, and this thing's going to be long enough as it is!



Anyway, my not-so-woe-is-me semi-relevant contribution. :-P

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

 

I pretty much made two commentaries: one, that 20,000+ words was a LOT to write, especially considering that the original characters of the computer game didn't have a lot of depth of personality. How could they, when their entire dialogue script couldn't have been more than 50-75 lines per character. Look at Wikipedia's DA hints, in 'dialogue', you'll see what I mean.

Have you ever looked inside the toolset? I'd say that Bann Teagan has more than 50-75 different lines. Alistair has close to 20 different lines in the dialogue you can have about his mother's amulet alone. I'd say just the Landsmeet conversations (all variations) exceeds your 50-75 lines estimate quite handily.

I recall Steve Valentine saying that he had recorded some 4000 lines for Alistair?  Ah yes, I found the tweet:  "So what's this about a D. Age movie? Not heard a word chaps. Maybe they'll cast use some of the 4000 lines I already recorded for the game!"

Uninformed troll is uninformed.

And who the hell cares anyway?  Fanfiction is meant to expand, not regurgitate.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 août 2010 - 04:53 .

[FutileSine]

JH: Why, yes I *have* been in a field environment - even been in a warzone....and let me tell you, people ALWAYS find a way for romance/sexy times. Even if they are stinky, muddy, and goodness knows what else....romance is on the mind, whether thinking about their loved one far, far away, or about that cute chick right next to them.

Thats just the way things go. When people are fighting together, they form a strong bond - look at these units who are fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq....these platoons are one big family. I don't want to get into the whole "women in combat" argument, but I'd wager that if you add women into the mix (which has been done unofficially), romances or sexy times would occur, depending on the women. Men like to protect women in combat scenarios, and a lot of fanfics I've read revolve their romance around that particular aspect of it.

From what I see, the DA universe isn't constantly at war either - there are long breaks in between the dirty grungy periods. And it is those breaks where the writers really flourish out the romance parts. Its not like going out on patrol, or whatever. You have long traveling times in between towns and villages, you have stops at civilization, all of where characters can learn to bond. Its like what happens in the barracks after a tiring patrol and the soldiers are just chilling out- great friendships are born that way.

DA takes place in a time of war. War is all about the mass murder, done in the name of what one's side says is right. If you want to paint over everything with a broad brush and say anyone who fights in a war is a mass murderer, go right ahead...but I think you would be falling into the "everything is either black or white" sort of view when honestly everything is just a varying shade of grey.   

Oh, and finally, just about *every* game's main character is a mass murderer. A lot of movies/TV shows feature senseless killing as well.... Our society is all about the killing and violence. Personally, I miss the games where the main objectives was more about using ones brains then spamming one's thumb a controller, but oh well. C'est la vie! I really hope you don't play a lot of video games if you get all bent out of shape over the mass killings that occur in this game.

Modifié par FutileSine, 20 août 2010 - 04:59 .

[Addai]

Speaking on the subject of what sort of what sorts of subplots we like, I also like stories that hang on the bond between animals and humans (or elves, whatever).  Like Hafter, the mabari in The Calling.  Can anyone recommend a good ff where the mabari plays a big role?

[FutileSine]

Addai67 wrote...

Speaking on the subject of what sort of what sorts of subplots we like, I also like stories that hang on the bond between animals and humans (or elves, whatever).  Like Hafter, the mabari in The Calling.  Can anyone recommend a good ff where the mabari plays a big role?

It's just a one-shot, but have you read;Up on the Roof? The mabari has a pretty important part in that one...

The alias "natmonkey" on FF also has several stories based on the mabari hound as well....Haven't read them yet though.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Speaking on the subject of what sort of what sorts of subplots we like, I also like stories that hang on the bond between animals and humans (or elves, whatever).  Like Hafter, the mabari in The Calling.  Can anyone recommend a good ff where the mabari plays a big role?

There's Wounded Soldiers. It's actually from the dog's POV but it involves the pairing of DEF/Leliana and you have issues with her, right? 

[Gilgamesh1138]

Queston, anyone else but me have trouble channeling Wynne to write her? She gives me the fits, and she is really the only one that I have trouble with.

[DreGregoire]

Gilgamesh1138 wrote...

Queston, anyone else but me have trouble channeling Wynne to write her? She gives me the fits, and she is really the only one that I have trouble with.

Maybe find her lines with the other companions and read over them to get a better sense of her?

[Sialater]

Gilgamesh1138 wrote...

Queston, anyone else but me have trouble channeling Wynne to write her? She gives me the fits, and she is really the only one that I have trouble with.

I imagine one of my old college professors.  With a vaguely British accent.

[mousestalker]

Grab a bunch of platitudes, throw in a little humour, mix with old age comments add a splash of compassion for widows and orphans and you should have a close approximation of Wynne.



She talks a great game of conformity and obedience but doesn't necessarily practise what she preaches.

[Raonar]

And she often gives advice on things she really has no experience in whatsoever, like say... being a Grey Warden.

[Maria13]

And yet, and yet, she is cleverer and more capable than most of the other characters put together. I didn't have trouble channelling her, actually, I just had her threatening one of the other characters... In the nicest possible way of course, and scaring the hell out of him. Bear in mind she is probably one of the most powerful figures in Ferelden...

[LupusYondergirl]

Yes. My main character and Wynne loathe each other, though, which sometimes makes it even harder. I don't want to make her all Snidely Whiplash or anything. That can always be tough, at least for me- making someone your protagonist hates not seem like a one-faceted jerk, but not making the main character seem unreasonable for disliking them.

[DreGregoire]

I haven't really thought of using Wynne but listening to you all talk about her and remembering my impressions of her I think I'll have to slip her into a story every now and then. Heh. I suppose she would have a few choice things to say. LOL. She makes a nice annoyed and disgusted face in game LOL.

And if all else fails I can beg her to tell me stories about Grey Wardens riding griffons LOL

Modifié par DreGregoire, 20 août 2010 - 08:57 .

[Raonar]

So, I am finally at the part with escaping from Ostagar and finally get to write something from my Mahariel's (male) point of view.

How would you guys feel about someone who had blind-fighting training and the ability to dodge arrows by hearing them as they come (so long as they are far enough away of course)?

Modifié par Raonar, 20 août 2010 - 09:10 .

[LupusYondergirl]

I saw a mythbusters on that once (with ninjas). They debunked it pretty soundly. (and, having done a bit of archery in my day, I can say from a distance an arrow sounds like nothing. You really can't hear them until they're RIGHT by you. Even a longbow is fairly quiet when released- although a crossbow can be loud)



Not to say you shouldn't go for it, but you might want to do a throwaway line about elves having faster reflexes than dwarves and humans or something to cover that. I know the books did specify that elves had better vision and hearing than humans, so reflexes wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility.