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[Raonar]

I'm thinking more like he could hear the vibration of the bowstrings as they shot the arrows. Anyway, I'll give you an extract, just to show off.

For a very long minute, almost nothing could be heard. The thunderstorm in the south had finally stopped, or so it seemed, and the lack of critters in the trees excluded any possibility of animal sounds. So Theron was finally able to listen closely, trying to discern where his enemies actually were. He closed his eyes and listened to the faint lisp of the fern as the rain water dripped on its leaves from the trees above. He noticed how the weak breeze cut through the underbrush, and he could also distinguish the familiarly-sounding gale as it passed through the perennial broadleaf trees that towered around him on all sides.

He heard Kallian and Faren as their muscles tensed and their feet crushed the grass underneath as they fidgeted. He took note of Alim's slow breathing as he clung to consciousness, and of the almost inaudible jingle his Warden Pendant gave out as it slid across his bare chest as he inhaled and exhaled. He listened to Cailan's irregular breaths as he clung to life.

And finally, like soft leaves falling to the ground during an autumn day, he heard his own steps as he tiptoed ever so slowly towards the nearest tree and carefully, almost soundlessly, dislodged the arrow that had embedded itself into its bark.

"Keep quiet," he carefully uttered as he slowly drew back his bowstring.

His mind tapped into all the years of experience he had accumulated, of walking the wilds and coming face to face with dangerous animals that he barely managed to escape, almost dying several times if not for the keeper's magic. Memories were awakened, of weeks spent traveling the forests blindfolded, suffering Tamlen's jibes and bad jokes as he couldn't help but stumble on every root he came upon.

His muscles flexed as he remembered the first time he managed to hit a bullseye blindfolded, then relaxed as his awareness expanded beyond what he and the other could see, until it finally reached far enough to bring the huffed steps of multiple creatures to his attention. Then, the familiar sound of a vibrating metal wire notified him that the wait was over.

Modifié par Raonar, 20 août 2010 - 09:36 .

[Sarah1281]

Maria13 wrote...

And yet, and yet, she is cleverer and more capable than most of the other characters put together. I didn't have trouble channelling her, actually, I just had her threatening one of the other characters... In the nicest possible way of course, and scaring the hell out of him. Bear in mind she is probably one of the most powerful figures in Ferelden...

Clever? You mean when she spouts platitudes that aren't even always situation-appropriate and weighs in - incorrectly - on things she knows nothing about? Age =/= wisdom. And how does she prove herself more capable than the other characters alone let alone put together? And where in the world does the 'one of the most powerful figures in Ferelden' thing comes from? No one says that, not even her.

[LupusYondergirl]

I think that could work, it reads as realistic.

Just one thing jumped out at me, though... Bowstrings were traditionally natural materials- sometimes fibers like linen or even silk, but mostly animal- rawhide and sinew. Now they're synthetics- kevlar, various polymers, etc. I don't think they've ever been metal wire. Even with gloves that would be wicked painful. (and metal doesn't have any give. You want a material that can be tied taught, stretched out when you draw, and snap back into shape. Metal can't do that.) So, you may want to replace metal wire with something like sinew or gut.

[Raonar]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

I think that could work, it reads as realistic.
Just one thing jumped out at me, though... Bowstrings were traditionally natural materials- sometimes fibers like linen or even silk, but mostly animal- rawhide and sinew. Now they're synthetics- kevlar, various polymers, etc. I don't think they've ever been metal wire. Even with gloves that would be wicked painful. (and metal doesn't have any give. You want a material that can be tied taught, stretched out when you draw, and snap back into shape. Metal can't do that.) So, you may want to replace metal wire with something like sinew or gut.

AHA, excellent, thanks for pointing that out. Modifications made.


EDIT

Since it's half past 1 at night here, I'll be going to sleep now. You all have fun

Modifié par Raonar, 20 août 2010 - 10:32 .

[LupusYondergirl]

No problem. My ex husband was Cayuga and REALLY into traditional archery and bowhunting (like made his own arrows and everything), he studied old European stuff, not just Native American tradition. I picked up a lot from him.

[DreGregoire]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

And yet, and yet, she is cleverer and more capable than most of the other characters put together. I didn't have trouble channelling her, actually, I just had her threatening one of the other characters... In the nicest possible way of course, and scaring the hell out of him. Bear in mind she is probably one of the most powerful figures in Ferelden...

Clever? You mean when she spouts platitudes that aren't even always situation-appropriate and weighs in - incorrectly - on things she knows nothing about? Age =/= wisdom. And how does she prove herself more capable than the other characters alone let alone put together? And where in the world does the 'one of the most powerful figures in Ferelden' thing comes from? No one says that, not even her.

Wynne is very aware of a great many things in Ferelden as well as Circle of Magi. Also she has been asked to take over as Head Enchanter; however, she appears to prefer having more freedom to move around outside of the tower. This makes her a powerful force within Ferelden. She is a wealth of information and knowledge. IMO, what she spouts is not situationally inappropriate. She does not hesitate to voice what is on her mind, which makes her invaluable. Sure she can have a biting tongue when she thinks you are going down the wrong path, but it is no worse or better than any of the other compainions.

If however you are the type that prefers to make their own way without using the wealth of knowledge others have experienced I can totally relate to being extremely annoyed by her. And when I say use I don't mean blindly follow what a person says but to take it and disect it and then shape it into a form that suits what you believe. I happen to adore her.

[Sarah1281]

I'm not the type of person to completely ignore other people's wealth of knowledge and I don't really appreciate you making assumptions like that based on the fact I don't find Wynne wise or particularly like her. I just don't happen to think Wynne has a wealth of knowledge or understands anything outside of the Circle as she's spent most of her life trapped in the Circle and is thoroughly indoctrinated by them even after they stole her son from her. Or even really within the Circle if her 'OMG, Aneirin! You know how you experienced nothing but misery at the Circle and when you finally left the Templars ran you through and left you for dead even though you were fourteen? I think you should come back. We need you a lot more than Irving needed me when I insisted on leaving' is anything to go by.

I just prefer to take my advice from those who know what they're talking about and not relying on their white hair and calm voice to convince people that they are wise. And nothing she says AT ALL about your origin when you are at the guardian is in any way appropriate. The CE remarks about how it's your fault Shianni got raped are especially rage-inducing.

Edit: Also, Irving wants to retire and after Uldred's through Wynne is virtually the only senior enchanter still among the living. Of course he wants her to take over! It doesn't mean she'd be anything spectacular, just that Uldred killed all of his other options.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 20 août 2010 - 11:39 .

[DreGregoire]

I apologize for my making the 'wrong assumption.'

I do however strongly disagree with your assessment about Wynne. I don't expect you to change your opinion and my attempt to express my understanding of your position, despite not agreeing has failed miserably. My bad.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 21 août 2010 - 12:07 .

[Sarah1281]

DreGregoire wrote...

I apologize for my making the 'wrong assumption.'

I do however strongly disagree with your assessment about Wynne. I don't expect you to change your opinion and my attempt to express my understanding of your position, despite not agreeing has failed miserably. My bad.

I am aware that people love and hate virtually all the characters that have any screen time and I happen to not like Wynne. My annoyance with your post wasn't really directed at you in particular but at the general fact that the most common explanation Wynne fans seem to have for people disliking her or finding her hypocritical and lacking in wisdom is 'oh, you must just hate mentors and not be open to wisdom' which isn't true, particularly if that explanation is given right after someone says they don't find Wynne wise.

[DreGregoire]

The characters (companions) are definately easy to hate or love if you are really into the role you are playing.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 21 août 2010 - 12:18 .

[LupusYondergirl]

To me, Wynne is extremely sheltered, and has been a senior mage long enough that she assumes others will defer to her opinion.

Most of her advice is, well, supremely bad. Especially when it comes to other mages.

Telling someone the templars left for dead to return to the tower? Bad advice. Unless he actually had a death wish of some kind.

Telling someone who left the tower because she got caught unrepentantly helping a blood mage escape, and has since become one herself, that she should return to the tower? Fantastically bad advice. And given that that person is one of two living Grey Wardens in the country, and perhaps the only one who they know will stay with the order since that can trigger after it's assumed Alistair will be king, her claim that the Circle needs them "more" seems... dubious.



The dialogue restoration patch for her, though? Oh holy maker. She's so entrenched in the Chantry teachings that she would be perfectly content to have the Warden killed as a maleficar, even knowing there are two and a blight is on, and even after saving the tower.

[DreGregoire]

So using the content of the restoration pack (which I am unfamiliar with) is how the writers intended her to be? I would have to witness it myself to have an opinion. My question about being a blood mage as a warden (which I haven't done myself) is if there are checks in place for it (being blood mage) before having conversations. If there are not appropriate checks for that you will get unexpected conversations.

I never could understand why Wynne encouraged the mage warden to return to the tower (to make changes) when she clearly knows that Grey Wardens are important or needed. Perhaps in her mind having a grey warden mage support the circle tower would be extremely beneficial. Something to think about I guess.

Great! Now I'm going to have to find that patch. Like I don't have enough mods as it is LOL

Modifié par DreGregoire, 21 août 2010 - 12:57 .

[Sarah1281]

DreGregoire wrote...

So using the content of the restoration pack (which I am unfamiliar with) is how the writers intended her to be? I would have to witness it myself to have an opinion. My question about being a blood mage as a warden (which I haven't done myself) is if there are checks in place for it (being blood mage) before having conversations. If there are not appropriate checks for that you will get unexpected conversations.

I never could understand why Wynne encouraged the mage warden to return to the tower (to make changes) when she clearly knows that Grey Wardens are important or needed. Perhaps in her mind having a grey warden mage support the circle tower would be extremely beneficial. Something to think about I guess.

Great! Now I'm going to have to find that patch. Like I don't have enough mods as it is LOL

Click here to see it play out. It was removed because if you are a blood mage who either fails the persuade check or doesn't use it, you won't have either the templars or mages on your side in the final battle. What happens is this: during the 'You're alive!' conversation Greagoir has with Irving, Wynne thanks you for saving the Circle them promptly demands to know where your 'powerful and disturbing non-Circle-sanctioned spells' came from. If you pass the persuade checks, Irving and Greagoir, who both realize at this point that you're a blood mage, fall all over themselves to cover for you. They don't like blood magic any more than most people but, unlike Wynne, they realize that you're the only hope during the Blight and maybe now's not the best time to be pedantic.

[LupusYondergirl]

DreGregoire wrote...

So using the content of the restoration pack (which I am unfamiliar with) is how the writers intended her to be? I would have to witness it myself to have an opinion. My question about being a blood mage as a warden (which I haven't done myself) is if there are checks in place for it (being blood mage) before having conversations. If there are not appropriate checks for that you will get unexpected conversations.

I never could understand why Wynne encouraged the mage warden to return to the tower (to make changes) when she clearly knows that Grey Wardens are important or needed. Perhaps in her mind having a grey warden mage support the circle tower would be extremely beneficial. Something to think about I guess.

Great! Now I'm going to have to find that patch. Like I don't have enough mods as it is LOL

It's tough to say how it "should" be since there's A LOT of just plain bugged dialogue in the game.  There really isn't any way to tell if some segment was removed for a reason, or if it's just a bug.
I suspect, if the Wynne part was removed intentionally, it was because it can be a game-destroyer.  You can either talk your way out of it with a high enough persuasion, or you have to fight every mage and templar right there, and don't get either in the final battle.

The return to the tower thing was just a brain-breaker for me, duty to the Wardens aside, since you get it even if you help Jowan and don't tell Irving. (and her dialogue otherwise seems to indicate she knows what you did).  I can't imagine helping a blood mage escape will get you a slap on the wrist, or that the templars would welcome you back openly.
Her own behavior doesn't show a lot of concern for the Circle, either.  When Irving said she was needed she left anyways to follow the warden.

[DreGregoire]

I would like to say that her inconsistency are not normal but then I start to think about people I've known that have had similiar inconsistencies. I think it all relates back to psychology, but I'm not going to go into that whole thing hehe aside from to say ones experiences (exposure to others) can colour a persons perspective.

[LupusYondergirl]

For her, I think a lot of the behavior and attitudes make sense when you consider that she was an orphan, and the tower was her first real home. Arriving there was a good thing, and vastly improved her life. But since it was so wonderful for her, she seems to everyone must find it much the same.

It seems like that alone would make her beliefs towards the circle vastly different from any mage who has memories of parents they were taken from.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Wynne has good intentions, I think. Sometimes her advice is ill-conceived or tempered by her upbringing/training, but I don't believe it's ever intended in a mean-spirited fashion. She means well, even if she does it wrong sometimes, and she has the grace to admit some of her shortcomings in time.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

JHByrne wrote...

Hey, ShadowOfLightDragon: need a download code for Leliana's Song? I already have the DLC, don't need the code.
It's a pretty good DLC. Delves into the 'why' of Leliana's character a bit, seems like a different writing team put it together than the ones who wrote the character in DA:O.

Anyone else need a free DLC for Lel's Song? Send me a private message, so we don't clutter up this thread.

I'll decline, but thank you kindly for the offer.

[mousestalker]

The word that best sums Wynne up is sheltered. She pretty much tells you the Circle has been her life. She is also a conformist. She says the things that she believes are expected of her.



I can't hate her. What the Circle and the templars did to her was beyond horrible. Part of her attempt to convince Aneirin to return to the tower probably comes from her wanting to restock the tower with senior enchanters. The same applies to her attempts to guide the mage warden back to the tower. If a younger mage of power is present, then they are a more suitable candidate for the top job than an elderly woman who is living on borrowed time. The only other candidates are the unnamed mages you save with Irving, the blood mage (if you spared her) and Godwin.



Wynne is horrible with people skills. She's arrogant in Ostagar. She rats out Uldred to Irving in a gormless manner. She is horrible to you if you romance anyone. She is especially horrible to you if you keep company with Zevran (does anyone else wish they could tell her "I could never give him up. He has this way, when we're in the throws of passion, of wiggling his ..."? I may put that into a fanfic just to spite a certain poster above.) She does apologize nicely later. What she says to the CE at the guardian is awful and she is particularly clueless at Caladrius when you are looking at your poor papa in his cage ("Blood magic. You wanna see blood magic? Here is Mr. Caladrius. Mr Caladrius meet Mr. Stabby. See Mr Caladrius' blood hit the ceiling, Wynne? That's blood magic, alienage style.")



She mostly means well, as long as she can escape the trap of the tower and go live her few remaining days/weeks/months/years on her terms. Consider her quest in Awakening. That's Wynne in a nutshell.

[Gilgamesh1138]

ROFL! I see she garners sympathy or vexation. Pretty much how I feel about her...in a nutshell. I don't hate her. Though she is annoying in her conformity. I love reading all your takes on her. Thanks for the lively discussion. It helps me get more of a bead on her actually. You guys are the best! It does surprise me that Anders the Circle Houdini actually agrees with Wynne that the Circle should not break with the Chantry in Awakenings.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Urgh, yes, her people skills leave something to be desired. I couldn't believe it when she suggested the CE could be to blame for what happened to Shianni. But I couldn't believe when the Guardian brought it up either, and the Shianni-ghost says (sadly) 'Do you even remember me anymore?' if you told the Guardian 'It was not my fault'.



WTF Dragon Age? Vaughan was the rapist.

[Sarah1281]

Gilgamesh1138 wrote...

ROFL! I see she garners sympathy or vexation. Pretty much how I feel about her...in a nutshell. I don't hate her. Though she is annoying in her conformity. I love reading all your takes on her. Thanks for the lively discussion. It helps me get more of a bead on her actually. You guys are the best! It does surprise me that Anders the Circle Houdini actually agrees with Wynne that the Circle should not break with the Chantry in Awakenings.

I took that to mean that Anders thought it was just a bad idea for all of the Circles to unanimously declare their independence as the Chantry wouldn't take that lying down and have an army of Templars at their beck and call plus the Chantry does provide some much-needed oversight and the Circle doesn't appear to have an alternative method in place.

[LupusYondergirl]

Gilgamesh1138 wrote...

ROFL! I see she garners sympathy or vexation. Pretty much how I feel about her...in a nutshell. I don't hate her. Though she is annoying in her conformity. I love reading all your takes on her. Thanks for the lively discussion. It helps me get more of a bead on her actually. You guys are the best! It does surprise me that Anders the Circle Houdini actually agrees with Wynne that the Circle should not break with the Chantry in Awakenings.

I think Anders was seeing it as "we can vote this, sure, and then the Chantry will send in three hundred templars who chop us all into little tiny mage chunks as a result."

I believe how it works is that, in theory, the circle invites the chantry to supervise.  But the chantry, should that invitation be cancelled, will come down on them like a ton of bricks.

[DreGregoire]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I couldn't believe it when she suggested the CE could be to blame for what happened to Shianni. But I couldn't believe when the Guardian brought it up either, and the Shianni-ghost says (sadly) 'Do you even remember me anymore?' if you told the Guardian 'It was not my fault'.

WTF Dragon Age? Vaughan was the rapist.

You know it always seemed to me that there are some large pieces of knowledge or information missing about the future warden in this origin. I always got the impression that there had been some past issues that placed some of the blame more heavily on the shoulders of the pc. There is the pc's mother and many people knew about her so in my mind I see that even if the CE didn't cause problems he/she could be perceived as trouble. Perhaps even spending time with the CE who broke laws (weapon training) made or rather encouraged Shianni to bottle Vaughn (still cracks me up everytime). Anyways. I could probably speculate about this for hours. Heh.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 21 août 2010 - 02:01 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

DreGregoire wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I couldn't believe it when she suggested the CE could be to blame for what happened to Shianni. But I couldn't believe when the Guardian brought it up either, and the Shianni-ghost says (sadly) 'Do you even remember me anymore?' if you told the Guardian 'It was not my fault'.

WTF Dragon Age? Vaughan was the rapist.

You know it always seemed to me that there are some large pieces of knowledge or information missing about the future warden in this origin. I always got the impression that there had been some past issues that placed some of the blame more heavily on the shoulders of the pc. There is the pc's mother and many people knew about her so in my mind I see that even if the CE didn't cause problems he/she could be perceived as trouble. Perhaps even spending time with the CE who broke laws (weapon training) made or rather encouraged Shianni to bottle Vaughn (still cracks me up everytime). Anyways. I could probably speculate about this for hours. Heh.

This is a possibility, but I'm also minded of Shianni's line after she bottles Vaughan (and is informed who his father is). She says "I've really screwed up this time," which implies that no matter how much trouble the CE might have been causing with his/her weapons training etc, Shianni had her history too.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 21 août 2010 - 02:07 .