10369 réponses à ce sujet

[JHByrne]

mousestalker wrote...

The word that best sums Wynne up is sheltered. She pretty much tells you the Circle has been her life. She is also a conformist. She says the things that she believes are expected of her.

I can't hate her. What the Circle and the templars did to her was beyond horrible. Part of her attempt to convince Aneirin to return to the tower probably comes from her wanting to restock the tower with senior enchanters. The same applies to her attempts to guide the mage warden back to the tower. If a younger mage of power is present, then they are a more suitable candidate for the top job than an elderly woman who is living on borrowed time. The only other candidates are the unnamed mages you save with Irving, the blood mage (if you spared her) and Godwin.

Wynne is horrible with people skills. She's arrogant in Ostagar. She rats out Uldred to Irving in a gormless manner. She is horrible to you if you romance anyone. She is especially horrible to you if you keep company with Zevran (does anyone else wish they could tell her "I could never give him up. He has this way, when we're in the throws of passion, of wiggling his ..."? I may put that into a fanfic just to spite a certain poster above.) She does apologize nicely later. What she says to the CE at the guardian is awful and she is particularly clueless at Caladrius when you are looking at your poor papa in his cage ("Blood magic. You wanna see blood magic? Here is Mr. Caladrius. Mr Caladrius meet Mr. Stabby. See Mr Caladrius' blood hit the ceiling, Wynne? That's blood magic, alienage style.")

She mostly means well, as long as she can escape the trap of the tower and go live her few remaining days/weeks/months/years on her terms. Consider her quest in Awakening. That's Wynne in a nutshell.

Well put.  Looking back, if I ran through DA:O again, I'd be less 'understanding' of Wynne.  I ran my character as a sociopathic megalomaniac -- he was all about 'power' and didn't care overmuch about how he got it.  So, it was 'easy' for him to lie and manipulate Wynne.  When the Wynne character would be an intrusive know-it-all granny type, I could have taken the insult road, but instead opted for 'I'll take that into consideration' replies. 
I preferred Zevran's dialogue mostly... at least he was never hypocritical!

[DreGregoire]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I couldn't believe it when she suggested the CE could be to blame for what happened to Shianni. But I couldn't believe when the Guardian brought it up either, and the Shianni-ghost says (sadly) 'Do you even remember me anymore?' if you told the Guardian 'It was not my fault'.

WTF Dragon Age? Vaughan was the rapist.

You know it always seemed to me that there are some large pieces of knowledge or information missing about the future warden in this origin. I always got the impression that there had been some past issues that placed some of the blame more heavily on the shoulders of the pc. There is the pc's mother and many people knew about her so in my mind I see that even if the CE didn't cause problems he/she could be perceived as trouble. Perhaps even spending time with the CE who broke laws (weapon training) made or rather encouraged Shianni to bottle Vaughn (still cracks me up everytime). Anyways. I could probably speculate about this for hours. Heh.

This is a possibility, but I'm also minded of Shianni's line after she bottles Vaughan (and is informed who his father is). She says "I've really screwed up this time," which implies that no matter how much trouble the CE might have been causing with his/her weapons training etc, Shianni had her history too.

Heh, makes me think cousin Soris is related to CE on the fathers side whereas cousin Shianni is related on the CE's mothers side. To give Shianni the benefit of the doubt the man did just slap and knock her brother to the ground. hehe. She drinks alot too. hahaha

Modifié par DreGregoire, 21 août 2010 - 02:14 .

[Sarah1281]

DreGregoire wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I couldn't believe it when she suggested the CE could be to blame for what happened to Shianni. But I couldn't believe when the Guardian brought it up either, and the Shianni-ghost says (sadly) 'Do you even remember me anymore?' if you told the Guardian 'It was not my fault'.

WTF Dragon Age? Vaughan was the rapist.

You know it always seemed to me that there are some large pieces of knowledge or information missing about the future warden in this origin. I always got the impression that there had been some past issues that placed some of the blame more heavily on the shoulders of the pc. There is the pc's mother and many people knew about her so in my mind I see that even if the CE didn't cause problems he/she could be perceived as trouble. Perhaps even spending time with the CE who broke laws (weapon training) made or rather encouraged Shianni to bottle Vaughn (still cracks me up everytime). Anyways. I could probably speculate about this for hours. Heh.

This is a possibility, but I'm also minded of Shianni's line after she bottles Vaughan (and is informed who his father is). She says "I've really screwed up this time," which implies that no matter how much trouble the CE might have been causing with his/her weapons training etc, Shianni had her history too.

Heh, makes me think cousin Soris is related to CE on the fathers side whereas cousin Shianna is related on the CE's mothers side. To give Shianni the benefit of the doubt the man did just slap and knock her brother to the ground. hehe. She drinks alot too. hahaha

Soris and Shianni are siblings.

And even if you were the influence causing Shianni to bottle Vaughan, it's still not fair or at all appropriate for Wynne to lay part of the blame for Shianni's rape at your feet. Why do you think Vaughan was even in the Alienage in the first place? To find someone to assault and he was already looking in Shianni's direction.

[DreGregoire]

Where in game or elsewhere does it say that Soris and Shianni are siblings? I must have missed a bunch of lines somewhere if it's in game

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I don't think it's explicitly stated that Soris and Shianni are siblings, but I take it that they are.



If you play as a male CE, there is an elf with the same red hair as Shianni who says "They took my sister!"



Also as a male CE, Soris talks about how both his parents were killed about 20 years ago in a riot.



From talking to Duncan, I'm also under the impression that the CE's mother, Adaia, lived in Denerim and the elder arranged for Cyrion to come from elsewhere and marry her. Unless Cyrion had a brother or sister come with him to marry someone else, it suggests Soris (and possibly Shianni) are related to the CE on his/her mother's side (presuming Adaia had siblings).

[DreGregoire]

I just didn't get the impression the two were siblings. It doesn't even make sense to me that they would be. heh. Just me I guess. I remember wondering on my ce playthrough if the term cousin is used to refer to close friendship or peer relationships rather than a biological relationship between them. I would have to replay the whole talking to Duncan thing but I didn't get an impression either way as to if Cyrion or Adaia came from a different Alienages. Heh makes me want to play a city elf again. Dangit I'm never going to be done playing dragon age LOL. ppppssst I can't believe who I found in a dungeon when playing a dlc *giggles*

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Well, you get an idea of how the marriage system works in the alienage, at least



Basically they have to 'order out' for grooms and brides to get new blood into the alienage and prevent interbreeding. Elves can't really travel between alienages without permits, or at least money to pay for bribes, and their weddings have to be sanctioned by the Chantry.



If you have parents to represent you, like the CE, they pay a dowry to another family. The family gets the gold in exchange for their child. The more money paid, the better the match can be--you could 'afford' an elf with trade skills, like a blacksmith. Cyrion is supposedly quite well off--he was a servant in a bann's estate, IIRC.



If you don't have parents, like Cyrion, the elder arranges a match. It sounds like these aren't always as promising as families who can afford to pay a dowry.



Duncan says that he once tried to recruit Adaia but was thwarted by Valendrian, who hurried Adaia's wedding (which is what leads me to believe Adaia lived in Denerim before her marriage. I am assuming that Cyrion came from another alienage, as both Soris and the CE's intended were). Valendrian also hurried the CE's wedding in an attempt to protect you.



We also know that weddings are a rite of passage in the alienage--you're a child until you're married.



*looked into this a fair bit when starting to write The Kill...*

[Sarah1281]

Why wouldn't it make sense that Soris and Shianni are related? They look really similar, they are both your cousin (and they refer to your father as their uncle so I've never bought the 'maybe they're just close friends' theory), they're really close, and they both don't appear to have any parents and we know that Soris' were killed in a fire a mob started.

[DreGregoire]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
We also know that weddings are a rite of passage in the alienage--you're a child until you're married.

Such a silly concept, but in the eyes of most elves I can see the need for the ritual.

[DreGregoire]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Why wouldn't it make sense that Soris and Shianni are related? 

It doesn't make sense to me because they never refer to each other as siblings. And I don't happen to think they look alike at all.

[DreGregoire]

I'm not trying to negate your storylines. I just have my own reasons for coming to the conclusion that they are not siblings. One good thing about some of the vagueness of dragon age is that it allows for different interpretations

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The fact that Soris/Shianni never refer to each other as siblings is a good reason to assume they might not be. I'm sure they're related by blood in some fashion (Cyrion says Soris is your cousin and Shianni refers to Cyrion as her uncle), but it might not be as close as brother/sister. It is by no means certain.

Edit: Don't worry, I'm not seeing you as poking holes in storylines or anything I think your points are valid. In the end, none of us can prove the exact relationship between Soris and Shianni with the info at hand, but as you said this leaves it open to interpret things the way we wish.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 21 août 2010 - 05:13 .

[Gilgamesh1138]

I thought they were siblings too. They both call your CE cousin. And Cyrion as Uncle. But that could mean your CE and they are all cousins (not siblings). But they are both cousins to your CE.

[JHByrne]

NOTE: many ghetto communities take a loose view of familial relations. 'Cousin' might be a reference to any close associate in an Alienage.



I do seem to recall that Soris/Shianni were siblings (blood siblings). I played through Elven Commoner as a male rogue. Slaughtered everyone in Vaughn's little hideout, then gutten the V-Man like a fish.



Oh yea... another point I would like to raise with all of your FF people -- you do, after all, put more thought into the 'whys' of character personalities than the regular hack-and-slash crowd.



Did you ever notice how the only characters who seem to survive the joining are those with some really rotten character traits? Its like every one who survives the ingestion of corrupt blood is already a bit corrupted, thereby innoculated. Well meaning types (Jory, Daveth, Mhari) all croak. Look at the Grey Warden's list of surivivng recruits,and tell me there's not a pattern:



1) Dwarf Noble: revenge or fraticide is a prime motivator.

2) Dwarf Commoner: revenge

3) Elf Commoner: revenge, and mass murder

4) Mage: desperate attempt to escape the circle, possibly also a betrayer of a friend (Jowan)

5) Human Noble: revenge

6) Dalish: desperate attempt to survive, + racial hatred of shemlen



7) Duncan: completely ammoral person. Willing to go all over Ferelden, and mislead people into joining an outdated order of suicidal killers, all 'for a higher cause'. Murders Jory when Jory understandably balks at drinking a cup of poison.

8) Oghren: a drunk, and ne'er do well. Gets off on killing.

9) Anders: 7 times escapee, and killer of Templars. Hates Chantry and Templars.

10) Velanna: hates Humans

11) Nathaniel: hates/mistrusts everyone (at time of his joining)

12) Sigrun: revenge (former casteless) + guilt complex over desertion issues. Probably accomplished killer by time of joining anyway, ie, another lost soul.

13) Loghain: another ruthless bastard. Not necessarily 'evil', but clearly, willing to do anything 'for the sake of Ferelden'. Completely ammoral, like Duncan.

14) Sophia Dryden: ruthless Teyrna, stripped of power = massive revenge issue.



15) LASTLY: Alistair. Alistair, you say? Isn't he the most 'innocent'? Herein lies a dilemma... what was Alistair's soul sickness? Seems to me (according to Al's own dialogue) that he is completely helpless/hopeless with people skills. Admits that the only time he feels good about himself is when he is fighting (killing) darkspawn. It makes an interesting take on Alistair's true nature when you realize that he is a socially awkward sociopath, and deep down, he knows it. What else is hiding behind that boyish facade? He certainly had no problem chopping off Loghain's head and splashing Anora with daddy's blood... (and for those who contend that he had to be 'hardened' first... it sure didn't take much to 'harden' him, did it? The ruthlessness had to already be there, yes?).



If we take the syllogism that you gotta be a little twisted already simply to survive the Joining, it opens up all sorts of psychological issues. For instance, maybe the final 'call' to go to the Deeps is not so much a physical decline, but an ultimate ethical decline?

After killing hundreds of DS/humans/critters, each grey warden would lose little slivers of soul... even if it is all in 'self defense'. LIfe becomes meaningless, everything becomes 'grey' to a grey warden (perhaps an implied meaning of the term?). Kill some more, and the warden would start to become a true connoisseur of the one thing he/she is good at -- watching the light die out in the eyes of a dying foe. Do you suppose that a warden might eventually come to crave that final moment of death, finally to revel in it? At that point, the warden has transitioned from sociopath to psychopath, and beyond... and is no longer fit company for anyone. About the only thing to do then is to commit oneself to a final banquet of killing -- the Call.

[Raonar]

Hmm, well, as far as i know, Genevieve, from the books, was originally just a really loving, eager young lady that wanted to be a Grey Warden and had no real sociopathic traits.



And her brother was recruited instead, but he pressed for her to be taken as well, and they both became Wardens.



I do believe they lacked any bad motivation, at least the type that you describe, when they joined, though they did end up with enough issues later on.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I would argue that *everyone* has rotten character traits (or, if you prefer, Nobody's Perfect).

Daveth was also a criminal.
Jory was arguably more interested in glory than protecting his family/the world.
Mhairi we don't know much about, but people have argued she has her faults.

I've heard Anders (or was it Nathaniel) can actually die at his Joining if you let him go at first, but haven't tried this myself.

Anyway, I don't personally think that the whole inner demon/corruption thing has any weight on the Joining. The points you put across for the Origins are void in some cases, as Duncan was perfectly willing to recruit them before the fecal matter hit the oscillating ceiling attachment.

I'm sure some Grey Wardens do have an ethical decline as time progresses, though. It wouldn't be easy.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 21 août 2010 - 11:20 .

[Maria13]

5) LASTLY: Alistair. Alistair, you say? Isn't he the most
'innocent'? Herein lies a dilemma... what was Alistair's soul sickness?
Seems to me (according to Al's own dialogue) that he is completely
helpless/hopeless with people skills. Admits that the only time he
feels good about himself is when he is fighting (killing) darkspawn. It
makes an interesting take on Alistair's true nature when you realize
that he is a socially awkward sociopath, and deep down, he knows it.
What else is hiding behind that boyish facade? He certainly had no
problem chopping off Loghain's head and splashing Anora with daddy's
blood... (and for those who contend that he had to be 'hardened'
first... it sure didn't take much to 'harden' him, did it? The
ruthlessness had to already be there, yes?).

I actually agree with most of what you say here.

You are forgetting the impulse control issues (potential alcoholism, anger, poss also sex, once he gets started) and the self-destructiveness.   He is also, like his dad, very prone to depression.

His family, the Theirins, seem to have an innate charisma and intelligence, but the need for revenge is pretty deeply ingrained in them.

As I have said before most of us here are not looking at the characters through rose-tinted lenses, our FFs are full-blooded warts and all accounts of complex personalities...
 
But you don't seem to be aware of that because you haven't bothered to read even a sample.

Modifié par Maria13, 21 août 2010 - 03:55 .

[Sialater]

I don't think there are inherent negative personality traits that mean survival through the Joining. I think rather, Grey Wardens don't get the cream of Ferelden society. They get the dregs, the criminals, the Apostates.



At the risk of quoting an 80's song, it's the will to survive that separates the Grey from the dead. It's the will to survive in the face of the horrific visions a recruit gets on his or her Joining. It's a will power save against the horrors a character sees as they drink that poison. The ones that give in to the terror and the horror are the ones that don't make it. The ones that have possibly seen, or can already imagine, such debasements as the darkspawn make it through the Joining. That also leaves us with your list, JH. Each one of those characters saw a great deal of horror, or previously studied such things, or in the case of the mages, already exhibited great will power in not being fooled by a demon.



Not to say any character can have that spine of steel, they obviously can't. But it's not being a bad person that gets you through it. It's strength of will.

[JHByrne]

Sialater wrote...

I don't think there are inherent negative personality traits that mean survival through the Joining. I think rather, Grey Wardens don't get the cream of Ferelden society. They get the dregs, the criminals, the Apostates.

At the risk of quoting an 80's song, it's the will to survive that separates the Grey from the dead. It's the will to survive in the face of the horrific visions a recruit gets on his or her Joining. It's a will power save against the horrors a character sees as they drink that poison. The ones that give in to the terror and the horror are the ones that don't make it. The ones that have possibly seen, or can already imagine, such debasements as the darkspawn make it through the Joining. That also leaves us with your list, JH. Each one of those characters saw a great deal of horror, or previously studied such things, or in the case of the mages, already exhibited great will power in not being fooled by a demon.

Not to say any character can have that spine of steel, they obviously can't. But it's not being a bad person that gets you through it. It's strength of will.

Alright, good point.  Will power.  But, again... hate/revenge is one of the best motivators of will there is.  Keeps ya warm at night!  Or at least, makes the cold a lot easier to bear, as you refuse to die from something so trivial, at least until you get your revenge!

[LupusYondergirl]

Anyone else having ff.net issues? I just had to delete and repost my most recent chapter. It took a while to show up, did briefly before disappearing, apparently came back online at some point since I got reviews overnight, but was gone again when I woke up.

And... a chapter I posted a couple days ago on my other story is... poof, gone. Along with a dozen reviews. Buh?

(I have an email in to them, but I just wondered if it was only me.)



Also, with regards to wardens being "bad people," it all depends on how you view or play the character. Mage characters don't HAVE to want freedom. There are plenty of dialogues about the tower being their home or not wanting to leave.

The dalish character can be played as someone very tolerant of other races, including being polite to Duncan and telling Tamlin to leave the humans alone. (I refuse to see "not wanting to die" as a sign of some sort of moral deficiency, though. that's just instinct)

Just two examples off the top of my head.



And Duncan? Well... that's one view. Another could be that he's a man who made many mistakes in his youth, regrets taking an innocent life, and now has devoted himself to a greater cause. Other people may see the Wardens as outdated, but he knows only a Warden can kill an archdemon, and he knows there is an archdemon. Seems fairly straightforward to me. Not sure where "outdated" comes into it. So, to him, he's doing all he can to save the world. He clearly feels a great deal of sympathy for the characters when he tells them the joining is difficult, and he's rather indulgent of Alistair's foibles. Later, Riordian tells you Duncan always had a soft spot for his recruits.

He never misled my characters. I don't remember him saying it would be awesome and we'd all get a bunch of shiny balloons. Grey wardens fight darkspawn, OBVIOUSLY their lives suck. That's an absurdly lousy job!

And murders Jory? Well, you can see it that way. Or, you can see it as Jory apparently never hearing the first thing my dad told me when he taught me to use a gun. "Never point a weapon at someone unless you plan to shoot them." Jory knew there was no turning back, and in some cases even said "well, let's do it," AFTER finding out it can be fatal. But he still draws a weapon on Duncan. Jory, the "good man" who died... can also be seen as a man who left his pregnant wife home alone and unprotected, during a blight, to chase personal glory.

So, you know, it's all a matter of interpretation.



Daveth is awesome, though. I love me some Daveth. Unrepentant thief, womanizer, and stone cold pragmatist. Makes me sad he'll die in one of my fics soon. I've been having way too much fun writing Daveth.



The violence thing, though... you can't look at it by the lights of our society. Everyone in Ferelden is apparently violent. They appear to have a fighting-based economy, really. What are Grey Wardens but just one more order of warriors among many, like the Ash Warriors, the various mercenary groups, and the orders of knights all over the country? The CIVILIZED way to end political disputes are duels to the death in the center of their place of government. I mean, we're talking about some VIOLENT people here.

[SurelyForth]

@JHByrne

My canon Cousland was absolutely not in it for revenge. When she took her joining, she was like a darkspawn killing zombie and only after Ostagar does she gain some awareness that the deaths of everyone- her family and the men and women allowed to die at Ostagar (and eventually everyone harmed by Loghain/Howe directly and indirectly), deserve to be avenged. Mainly, though, she's driven by the purpose of ending the Blight. She holds nothing personal above that and, while she despises Howe, killing him disturbs her more than it placates her.

I would argue about Alistair being a terrible person, mostly because I don't see his excitement about being a Grey Warden as indicating any sociopathic tendencies. If anything, I can see that he's relieved that he's a Grey Warden over being a templar because darkspawn are mindless, evil things that he can kill without guilt while mages are, very obviously, not. He's been trained as a warrior but given his choice, he'd only kill that which he knows deserves death.

At Ostagar, if you exhaust his dialogue, you can tell that he hero-worships the Wardens but he also has some awareness that horrible things need to be done to ensure success against the darkspawn and some of those things he does not approve of. Gaider has indicated that Alistair would have become rapidly disillusioned (or completely changed) had Duncan not died at Ostagar.

And Alistair is self-deprecating and has low self-esteem because of his upbringing. He's actually quite charming, compassionate and (despite some awkwardness borne from being sheltered) not that socially inept at all.

As for Anders, escaping from a prison absolutely does not mean he's a bad person. The fact that he is not killed when captured indicates that he willingly goes back every time. There's absolutely no proof that he killed the templars at the Vigil and the fact that he'll come back if you send him on his way is a pretty strong indication that he didn't. Murderers don't usually hang around the scene of the crime when offered a no-strings opportunity for escape.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 21 août 2010 - 05:01 .

[Sialater]

JHByrne wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I don't think there are inherent negative personality traits that mean survival through the Joining. I think rather, Grey Wardens don't get the cream of Ferelden society. They get the dregs, the criminals, the Apostates.

At the risk of quoting an 80's song, it's the will to survive that separates the Grey from the dead. It's the will to survive in the face of the horrific visions a recruit gets on his or her Joining. It's a will power save against the horrors a character sees as they drink that poison. The ones that give in to the terror and the horror are the ones that don't make it. The ones that have possibly seen, or can already imagine, such debasements as the darkspawn make it through the Joining. That also leaves us with your list, JH. Each one of those characters saw a great deal of horror, or previously studied such things, or in the case of the mages, already exhibited great will power in not being fooled by a demon.

Not to say any character can have that spine of steel, they obviously can't. But it's not being a bad person that gets you through it. It's strength of will.

Alright, good point.  Will power.  But, again... hate/revenge is one of the best motivators of will there is.  Keeps ya warm at night!  Or at least, makes the cold a lot easier to bear, as you refuse to die from something so trivial, at least until you get your revenge!

Revenge may give you the +2 to your willpower save, but it's still a willpower check.  So to speak.

[Maria13]

NOOB



Can someone point me to somewhere where it explains how to put pictures in posts?

[LupusYondergirl]

like such



"img"http://website.com/p...cture.jpg"/img"



but replace the " with the [ and ] brackets.

[DreGregoire]

You know you are hooked on writing fan fiction when:

The first thing you use to do every morning was check your email and now it's check your story stats.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 21 août 2010 - 05:30 .