10369 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

So, the future of an independent Dalish state depends on... uninterrupted Ferelden support, trade, cultural isolation, and eugenics.

[maxernst]

Ironically, greater acceptance might actually reduce their chances of survival. Ostracized minorities are more likely to remain culturally distinct. The Romany and Jews survived in Europe as distinct cultural enclaves for centuries.

[mousestalker]

I'm working on a fanfic on that very subject. My Surana's solution to elvish independence starts with encouraging elvish deep sea fishing while she is Chancellor.

[mousestalker]

maxernst wrote...

Ironically, greater acceptance might actually reduce their chances of survival. Ostracized minorities are more likely to remain culturally distinct. The Romany and Jews survived in Europe as distinct cultural enclaves for centuries.

Perhaps. There has been an active and vital Armenian community in most middle eastern cities for a very long time. Because modern societies make assimilation so easy and attractive we tend to forget how long ethnic enclaves existed in pre-industrial times. There are semi reliable reports of Goths still being around in the 1600's in the Crimea.

[Dean_the_Young]

Wouldn't encouraging the elves to abandon the forests and take to the deep seas, a place only the Qunari travel well, be about as un-elven as possible? Certainly un-Dalish: the previous elves hadn't even crossed the walking sea, let alone the oceans.



And the elves still need a port. Unless Alistair intends to evict a human port, the elves don't have much at all, and would be easily outsold by established villages unless the elves enjoy special one-sided trade advantages that the rest of Ferelden would simmer about.

[mousestalker]

It's not an all or nothing solution. And it's not a long term solution. I'm torn here. I generally do not finish my fanfics, but on the other hand if I do, I think it's part of a logical solution to the elvish problem of homeland drawn from the history of our world.



Here's part of my thinking, and I very much could be wrong. The elves have historically put all their eggs in one basket for homelands. All the elves were in Arlathan and then most were in the Dales. I really don't think that the total number of elves in Thedas is especially small. What they are is scattered across the length and breadth of the old Tevinter Imperium in small pockets. The size of the enclaves is what makes sending out for spouses so vital.



The Dales also showed that an elven homeland will eventually have border problems. I am uncertain if Arlathan was an island or part of the continent. Could someone help with that? Also,the Fate of the Dales made it clear that returning to the old ways is probably doomed. If the elves are going to survive and thrive then they need to adapt.



So the problem is that the elves need a homeland that is not readily accessible to other human nations (or Qunari for that matter). You won't find one of those via land travel. You may never find one. But island colonies of fishermen provide a short to medium term solution of developing a modern elven culture and allow the potential of colonizing any new lands that may be found.



I also find the idea of viking elves endlessly amusing.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Arlathan was on the continent. If you have a map handy, from recollection it's east of the current day Tevinter Imperium and north/northwest of Antiva, on the coast. I'm not sure if it's forest now or not, but lore says that the Tevinter mages conducted some huge (blood magic?) ritual that sank Arlathan into the earth.



The elves could always try to live underground. The dwarves have been pretty successful keeping other things out with giant doors. (Of course, being magic resistant might have helped too...)

[Sandtigress]

I actually do see them living as isolationist as possible, with possibly those clans who are more willing to interact with humans living on the outskirts of the Hinterlands, while those who want to be further away live more towards the Wilds.

They wouldn't need to trade any more than they do now as a wandering people and could rely on the outer-lying clans to deal with the humans for them. Otherwise they would try to live as elven a life as possible.



As far as Teagan goes, sure, he could just be a jerk in disguise. But as he appears to be a decent human being in all other things, I don't think it's unfair to also characterize him as being tolerant and kind to elves/dwarves as well as humans.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sandtigress wrote...

I actually do see them living as isolationist as possible, with possibly those clans who are more willing to interact with humans living on the outskirts of the Hinterlands, while those who want to be further away live more towards the Wilds.
They wouldn't need to trade any more than they do now as a wandering people and could rely on the outer-lying clans to deal with the humans for them. Otherwise they would try to live as elven a life as possible.

Well, as small-island fishermen they would require trade more than in the forests, where nature has taught them to dwell. Tools, materials, anything the immediate island doesn't provide.

Weapons, too, if they don't want to be overrun and conquered piecemeal by pirates and filibusters.

As far as Teagan goes, sure, he could just be a jerk in disguise. But as he appears to be a decent human being in all other things, I don't think it's unfair to also characterize him as being tolerant and kind to elves/dwarves as well as humans.

What, you think racists are monsters in other categories by default?

Teagan may not be a raging malevolent elven-phobe akin to the KKK, but that's a far difference from treating the average Elf who isn't saving his town with respect as an equal.

[Sandtigress]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]Well, as small-island fishermen they would require trade more than in the forests, where nature has taught them to dwell. Tools, materials, anything the immediate island doesn't provide.

Weapons, too, if they don't want to be overrun and conquered piecemeal by pirates and filibusters.

Err, where does the small-island thing come into play?  My Dalish are living in the Hinterlands, which is the perfect still foresty edge of the Wilds place for them....

Dean_the_Young wrote...

As far as Teagan goes, sure, he could just be a jerk in disguise. But as he appears to be a decent human being in all other things, I don't think it's unfair to also characterize him as being tolerant and kind to elves/dwarves as well as humans.

What, you think racists are monsters in other categories by default?

Teagan may not be a raging malevolent elven-phobe akin to the KKK, but that's a far difference from treating the average Elf who isn't saving his town with respect as an equal.

Unless you can provide proof that Teagan acts in any other way towards any other elf, I'd say that my characterization of him is just as fair as yours.  The fact that he's willing to marry a common woman says that nobility or social standing doesn't seem to mean too much to him so if he's decent to a Warden elf there's no reason to believe he might not also be decent to your average every day elf.

Basically, you have no evidence to back up your position that Teagan is a secret elf-hater, other than you might like to characterize him as such, which is your right, should you choose to do so.

[Sarah1281]

Basically, you have no evidence to back up your position that Teagan is a secret elf-hater, other than you might like to characterize him as such, which is your right, should you choose to do so.

Is that the position? I thought the position was more along the lines of 'Just because Teagan is willing to flirt with an elf (and a dwarf and a mage) who is a member of a species that is highly fetishized by humans and because he is not stupid enough to disrespect the person who he believes is the only chance Redcliffe and those in the Castle half of surviving doesn't mean that he accepts all elves as his equal.' And it really isn't. It doesn't have to mean that he doesn't view them all as equal to him but his treatment of the Warden is hardly conclusive evidence one way or another. Marrying a HUMAN commoner also doesn't say anything about how he views elves. Besides, they're a rich successful commoner which is less frowned upon than marrying them before they got some money from you and were stuck in Redcliffe.



Another example of a character who you can't necessarily correctly judge based on his interaction with the Warden is Vaughan. Aside from asking if Howe is trying to insult him by sending an elf to torture him, if you choose the right dialogue options with Vaughan he doesn't actually say anything negative about elves at all but I think we all know that THAT is hardly an accurate representation of his character.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Yeah, I have to agree with Sarah. Teagan comes across as nice and all to anyone wearing a skirt, but that doesn't mean he'd comit to them. Besides, as Dean said, when your Warden meets him she's (probably) offering to help save the town, plus she's a Grey Warden. Why wouldn't he be respectful? Why would his respect to her mean he'd treat a non-Warden/hero elf with the same regard?



We don't know enough about him to judge though, so people can go either way.

[Sandtigress]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

We don't know enough about him to judge though, so people can go either way.

Um, this is the point I'm trying to make, that theres no point arguing either way because there's no evidence either way.  It's just as fair a characterization to say that Teagan is an all-around decent human being who actually happens to respect elves as there is he's got a elven fetish underneath.

I've never denied the other being a possibiltiy but everyone wants to seem to argue with me that it's possible.  :-P I know it's possible, but so is the other option!

[DreGregoire]

Elves Dalish & City, oh and Teagan

IMO
The Dalish elves time is not done. The Wilds may be part of Ferelden but they are far from ruled by the Ferelden nobility. The wilds and forests of Ferelden are vast and tangled enough that they will never be tamed (in dragon age anyways). Fereleden society is medieval in nature meaning there is no modern ways of taming the dense wilds. The Dalish survive there with minimal contact with humans. There way is not at an end by any stretch of the imagination. Ferelden's are barbaric in nature, but they are also superstitious and know when and where to take their battles. What I see as the majority of Ferelden society is in the bannorn and they are too busy warring with themselves to focus on untamed wilds. (Alistair even mentions having to head to the bannorn to settle some matters when he meets up with the warden in awakenings). So. no. The Dalish elves are not over, kaput, or whatever anytime soon.

IMO, The lot of the city elves will continue to be filled with strife as long as they are considered seperate from humans. Unfortunately they perpetuate it themselves and for good reason, because human and elf children are human and not elven. Yes, it falls to the rulers of the area to improve the lot of the elves by enacting new guidelines and allowing for higher ranking elfs within society. Slowly and I mean really slowly change comes about. One person at a time not a whole nation in one swoop. Unfortunately when a single person of a race is put out as a positive example many people will be inclined to believe that person to be an exception and not a general representation of a race. It's human nature.

My take on Teagan. We do not have enough information to know if he would encourage human/elf marriages, but we do know he isn't stupid. He is very astute and his actions in Redcliff show him sacrificing his own wishes for the safety of others. I do not feel that it would be far fetched at all to say he might chance an intimate relationship with an elf. I find it less far fetched than the idea of him being an elf hater. Would the chantry allow for a human/elf marriage? I have no idea. I would think it would depend on the chantry officials versus the political pull. The Chantry does not have political pull in Ferelden, so they are hardpressed to deny the rulers of Ferelden. An example is the immediate backing down of the templar in the beginning of Awakenings when King or Queen says they will allow the conscription of Anders. MMMMM, Dangit now I'm thinking about Anders.

Anyways just my take on it all.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 27 août 2010 - 07:05 .

[LupusYondergirl]

There is NOTHING WRONG with thinking about Anders. I am, very frequently thinking (or writing) about Anders. I am, at this moment, writing about Anders.

I don't think the Chantry has any views on human/elf relationships, I think it's entirely a societal prejudice.

I always suspected something was up with Teagan. For a noble, he seems to old to have not already married. No idea what it could be, I just figured most nobles would be well about that whole "making an heir" thing by his age...
I don't really think it's anything bad, just... curious.

(also, what is up with all these people suddenly thinking this is the mod and toolset forum?)

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 27 août 2010 - 04:20 .

[DreGregoire]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

I always suspected something was up with Teagan. For a noble, he seems to old to have not already married. No idea what it could be, I just figured most nobles would be well about that whole "making an heir" thing by his age...
I don't really think it's anything bad, just... curious.

Hmmm I kind of wondered this myself. At the time I just assumed perhaps he had married at some point but lost his wife or something like. Heh, maybe he's... well nevermind that. An interesting thing to speculate about and since there appears to be no information it would be an great little short story for somebody to write. Heh

[Sarah1281]

My take on Teagan. We do not have enough information to know if he would encourage human/elf marriages, but we do know he isn't stupid. He is very astute and his actions in Redcliff show him sacrificing his own wishes for the safety of others. I do not feel that it would be far fetched at all to say he might chance an intimate relationship with an elf.

I'm really not sure what him not being stupid or being self-sacrificing has to do with him being willing to get together with an elf. Quite the contrary, you could see his not being stupid as a reason to NOT pursue something because he's a bann and he couldn't marry an elf without a HUGE public backlash. Not to mention that he becomes an Arl in many endings and an elven Arlessa would be even LESS accepted.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 27 août 2010 - 04:41 .

[maxernst]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

I always suspected something was up with Teagan. For a noble, he seems to old to have not already married. No idea what it could be, I just figured most nobles would be well about that whole "making an heir" thing by his age...
I don't really think it's anything bad, just... curious.

(also, what is up with all these people suddenly thinking this is the mod and toolset forum?)

I actually wondered if Teagan not marrying was to avoid generating an heir and splitting the family's holdings.  There was a reason that many families sent the second son to the Church.  It may not be an accident that he starts to look for a wife when Connor is revealed as a mage.    

With respect to when nobles marry, it seems that while women married young, the age of men at marriage was highly variable.  Sometimes they would put off marriage while they were actively campaigning.  Quite a few of the post-Norman conquest English royalty married late. Of William the Conqueror's four sons, Richard and William Rufus both died without ever marrying at 27 and ~43 respectively, Robert didn't marry until his late 40's, and Henry married at 31.  Richard the Lionheart married at 34. 

[LupusYondergirl]

He has his own holding, though. Eamon got Redcliffe, but he's Bann of Rainsfaire in his own right.

[Maria13]

DreGregoire wrote...

LupusYondergirl wrote...

I always suspected something was up with Teagan. For a noble, he seems to old to have not already married. No idea what it could be, I just figured most nobles would be well about that whole "making an heir" thing by his age...
I don't really think it's anything bad, just... curious.

Hmmm I kind of wondered this myself. At the time I just assumed perhaps he had married at some point but lost his wife or something like. Heh, maybe he's... well nevermind that.  Heh

Yes, I wondered that too.  He's witty, corageous, charming and refined...  But there are several reasons why he may not want to settle as Maxernst has flagged up.  Perhaps Aimo has the right of it and he prefers dwarven dominatrices...

[maxernst]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

He has his own holding, though. Eamon got Redcliffe, but he's Bann of Rainsfaire in his own right.

I'm assuming his father held both and chose to split them between his sons.  It might be kind of like the Duke of York position in modern England--it seems like it's not really intended to be passed on.

[DreGregoire]

Sarah1281 wrote...

My take on Teagan. We do not have enough information to know if he would encourage human/elf marriages, but we do know he isn't stupid. He is very astute and his actions in Redcliff show him sacrificing his own wishes for the safety of others. I do not feel that it would be far fetched at all to say he might chance an intimate relationship with an elf.

I'm really not sure what him not being stupid or being self-sacrificing has to do with him being willing to get together with an elf. Quite the contrary, you could see his not being stupid as a reason to NOT pursue something because he's a bann and he couldn't marry an elf without a HUGE public backlash. Not to mention that he becomes an Arl in many endings and an elven Arlessa would be even LESS accepted.

Here I'll make what I meant clearer.
In regards to marriage
We do not have enough information to know if he would encourage human/elf marriages, but we do know he isn't stupid. He is very astute and his actions in Redcliff show him sacrificing his own wishes for the safety of others.

now relationship, not marriage:
I do not feel that it would be far fetched at all to say he might chance an intimate relationship with an elf, especially if they were a person of influence.

note: This is a relationship not a marriage. He wouldn't be the first noble to have children by an elf either. Again, there isn't enough information to back up anybodies opinion.

[DreGregoire]

maxernst wrote...

LupusYondergirl wrote...

He has his own holding, though. Eamon got Redcliffe, but he's Bann of Rainsfaire in his own right.

I'm assuming his father held both and chose to split them between his sons.  It might be kind of like the Duke of York position in modern England--it seems like it's not really intended to be passed on.

Maybe Rainsfaire was their original holding and they were appointed to Redcliff Arl by the Teyrn of the region. This is how I understand the Arlships to work. 

[nos_astra]

I understood an arl is something like a very strong bann who is supported by other banns. I'm not sure it has something you can be appointed to. (But then Maric made Loghain Teyrn of Gwaren. Ferelden is confusing.)

Modifié par klarabella, 27 août 2010 - 05:43 .

[DreGregoire]

klarabella wrote...

I understood an arl is something like a very strong bann who is supported by other banns. I'm not sure it has something you can be appointed to. (But then Maric made Loghain Teyrn of Gwaren. Ferelden is confusing.)

What I read is that the Teyrn's appoint Arl's out of the Bann's to hold strategic lands that they are unable to oversee themselves Maric made Loghain a noble and gifted him the Teyrn of Gwaren making him a Teyrn is how I understood it. I'm sure somebody disagrees with me. My info is based off of a couple of different sources but others may have resources I do not know about

Modifié par DreGregoire, 27 août 2010 - 05:50 .