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#5776
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Hm. re: gender references in games...one of my favourite games, Ultima, rarely acknowledged gender for the majority of the series (7 games). You could be male or female and people would treat you exactly the same, except at a brothel or the odd NPC who would hit on you depending on your gender. It didn't matter if you were a warrior or mage, people treated you like you were capable of what you were doing. And I loved it. It didn't make a big deal of you being a woman. It didn't treat you as any more of a hero if you were a man. There were no party romances with the PC, and there was something *refreshing* about travelling with a group of guys and having none of them hit on you or see you as anything more but a companion and fellow warrior.

As nice as it is in Bioware games to have your gender acknowledged, barely having it noticed either way was cool in itself--you never felt like you had to prove anything to anyone, and you never felt like a walking pair of breasts.

(The sad end to this story is that Ultima 8 and 9 only allowed you to make a male PC. And 9 shoved a relationship with a busty pirate woman down your throat, which is giving me chills about DA2 if you've seen the trailer. Electronic Arts was their publisher too. ;) Oh Maker...they woman in the trailer even looks a little like the one in U9...)

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 02 octobre 2010 - 10:09 .


#5777
KSuri

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=About game monogamy=

I don't usually 'cheat' on whatever game is currently occupying my time. I'm usually deeply into whatever I'm playing to the exclusion of everything else. That was especially true for Origins.
DA:O is the only one that made me actually want to write anything or play more than once....so that does say something about how good it is. :)
I will admit that I am cheating like a hussy on Awakening tho. StarCraft II is on the scene and it's one game I really love playing because I can do it with some of my favorite people in the world. So I'm splitting my time between writing, playing Awakenings, and SCII.

As for having gender addressed. I like it when it isn't ignored. Makes it interesting. Romance I can go either way with but I like choosing a female character and be noticed for it.

Modifié par KSuri, 02 octobre 2010 - 10:43 .


#5778
DreGregoire

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jackkel dragon wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

LupusYondergirl wrote...

You can run through as good, a pushover, super-religious, bigoted, pragmatic, greedy, evil, cruel... and they'll all vary slightly.


Yep gotta love messing with all those dragon age companions and npc's :)


Leliana: I luv da Maker!
Warden: I doo too!
Leliana: Let's be friends!

5 minutes later...

Leliana: I luv da Maker!
Warden: The Maker sucks.
Leliana: Posted Image
*Leliana disapproves: -20*

5 minutes later...

Warden: I haz Andrastre medals nao!
Leliana: Yay!
*Leliana approves +50*



ooooh I haven't messed with Leliana much you are making me want to though.

PC: I said we didn't have time...
A: Remind me not to get injured anywhere near you.

Heh I actually got Zevran annoyed by a couple of responses and I was like whoa cut me down to size why don't you! LOL

#5779
Merilsell

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Two months ago I made an attempt to play something else than just DA:O and failed miserably. I started to game Alan Wake and stopped somewhere in chapter 3. Then I grope FFXIII and gamed it for about an hour, before the clichéd characters started to annoy me. I could foreseen 10 minutes before it happened who of them would die next and was right. So much for a dramatic story. It was boring. So I fired DA up again and squee-ed with joy as my character was to see. Since then I never tried another game again.

DA has seriously ruined me for other games, I swear.xD

I have given my FemShep my name, but that was 3 years ago and it doesn't bother me much ...since everyone is calling her only Shepard anyway. But a DA character? Never.

#5780
LupusYondergirl

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<morrigan>I have a wonder...</morrigan>
I thought of this when the subject of naming characters after yourself came up.
Do any of you (or maybe all of you would be more accurate since I KNOW I can't be the only one) have problems with people assuming you are your characters, and your characters are making decisions you would support?
Is self-insert so common that everyone assumes that's the case or something?

And whenever I get an email where someone is mad at ME for something she did I'm so tempted to respond with a message that has nothing but the word "fiction" in the body of it. Sure, say "I'm mad she did xyz" since that makes SENSE. But not "how could you do that, only a horrid person would do xyz! what is wrong with you?!"

Sometimes I feel like I should head my chapters with "Hi. I'm the writer. I'm an extreme left wing pacifist geek living in the 21st century with absolutely no magical powers at all. Maggie, a fictional character, is a stone cold killer who lives in a pseudo medieval fantasy world and shoots lightning from her hands. FYI, we are not the same person. The stuff she does? I'm not even physically capable of most of it. I wouldn't want to do a lot of the rest. Other than the doing Anders part. If he was real I'd be all over that."

Just wondering how everyone else deals with this particular flavor of WTF.

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 03 octobre 2010 - 12:21 .


#5781
Korva

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Now I'm all nostalgic for the old Ultimas (I ignore 8 and 9 as the travesties they are). I agree wholeheartedly about how the mainly gender-neutral treatment and the absence of moon-eyed companions were great. No awkwardness or ulterior motives there, "only" deep trust, loyalty and friendship. I don't care much for the kissy stuff, but give me strong platonic bonds and I'm sold hook, line and sinker. :P

As for gaming habits, when I get a new one I tend to play it obsessively (to the detriment of such minor concerns as sleep and food). But when it's done it's done. I never -- or almost never -- even start to replay a game. I just tend to get so much into it that a replay feels fake and empty.With DA, though I was planning a few replays, the most I could do was play the origins. After that, the steam was gone, mainly becauses the game has so little in the way of meaningful choices and consequences (one of my biggest pet peeves in gaming is the lack of those) or actual different treatment. *shrug* Didn't feel like doing the same thing again with only the rare small change of dialog to acknowledge my character being a dwarf or elf instead of a human noble.

If a game really gripped me, I'll daydream about it, but I can't write at all so any stories I come up with are strictly, terminally stuck inside my skull. *sigh*

I don't name my characters after myself, and don't want them to look like I do, either. Gaming is a way to get away from myself to an extent. Though I would not play a character or in a setting that goes totally against some core beliefs (sexism or homophobia are immediate turnoffs, as is forced "romance" or anything touching sexual violence).

Modifié par Korva, 03 octobre 2010 - 12:30 .


#5782
jackkel dragon

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Feel free to ignore me if I'm cutting off a good conversation, but I have a question about FF, and to a lesser extent mods.

Has any FF or mod ever actually make you feel sad? At least sad for the characters? I have a love/hate relationship with not being able to "cry" unless something really does get in my eye, but there are some games (note: official games) that made me depressed for a day or so. For example: Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days, Pikmin 1, and some (rare) others...  Also, has anyone had their own fic/mod reviewed where the reviewer said thay felt sad, when you did intend them to be sad?

I ask this because it's part of the whole "making the audience react how you want them to" thing. If I get my way, the Legend of Tayte might end with some mixed emotions... (Aptly termed by some as "Bittersweet.") I want to make sure this is possible so I can plan appropriately.

#5783
Sarah1281

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@LupusYondergirl: Well, my first game was basically me. I was just playing the game and wasn't looking to delve deep into RP and, frankly, didn't know enough about the world for it to be at all accurate. After that, though, I began to move away from that. My characters still generally make MANY of the same choices I would but not all and not for nearly the same reasons. Most if not all of my characters have some very bizarre issues that I'd like to think that I don't have so if their various insanities demand that something must be done, then it's going to happen even if I think that they're being stupid.



I think that many people do play the game (at least the first time) doing kind of a self-insert because it's easier, they lack the information to be really good at RPing, and they haven't fallen in love with the game enough to put the effort into a proper RP yet. Because of that and some fanfiction reading like it's just your Warden living out your romantic dreams with your pixel crush (one story that I'll admit I haven't read so I don't know how good it is even advertises that it's cutting right to the chase and writing about the characters loving the reader instead of the reader-proxy), it's easy to assume that everyone's writing about themselves.



If they don't write fanfiction, I think it's an even easier assumption to make because, as you have full control of the characters, they wouldn't think that you'd have them do something if you think it's horrible and would never do that. Of course, that's actually the sign of good writing if your characters can take on a life of their own and insist on doing things that you yourself would really like to shake them for.



But yes, it is really annoying.

#5784
jackkel dragon

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Loghain better not be a Gaider/Kirby self-insert. Even with his justifications he's nasty...

#5785
Sarah1281

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jackkel dragon wrote...

Loghain better not be a Gaider/Kirby self-insert. Even with his justifications he's nasty...

I strongly disagree but hope that that won't turn into another Loghain debate.

#5786
LupusYondergirl

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jackkel dragon wrote...

Has any FF or mod ever actually make you feel sad? At least sad for the characters? I have a love/hate relationship with not being able to "cry" unless something really does get in my eye, but there are some games (note: official games) that made me depressed for a day or so. For example: Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days, Pikmin 1, and some (rare) others...  Also, has anyone had their own fic/mod reviewed where the reviewer said thay felt sad, when you did intend them to be sad?


I've had people tell me they cried reading something I wrote, and I've cried reading other fics. 
I usually go more towards the other end so people are more likely to tell me that I almost got them in trouble for reading fanfic at work when they laughed or something, though.  And I've definately cracked up reading a few fics out there.

So in short, yes, totally possible, and does happen.  It's no different than any other fiction in that regard.


Edit to add:
There are no universals.  I love Loghain.  The books have made him one of my absolute favorite characters in the DA universe. 
But yeah, Sarah is absolutely correct.  A thousand threads have been brought to their knees, broken, bloody and weeping, in the Loghain Wars.  This thread shouldn't join that list.

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 03 octobre 2010 - 01:21 .


#5787
SurelyForth

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I get flack for being the puppetmaster, but I don't get conflated with my characters when they do things that my readers disagree with. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I write from several perspectives? There's definitely a main character, but I'm not writing from her head all the time. Thank goodness. 

jackkel dragon wrote...
Feel free to ignore me if I'm cutting off a good conversation, but I have a question about FF, and to a lesser extent mods.

Has any FF or mod ever actually make you feel sad? At least sad for the characters? I have a love/hate relationship with not being able to "cry" unless something really does get in my eye, but there are some games (note: official games) that made me depressed for a day or so. For example: Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days, Pikmin 1, and some (rare) others...  Also, has anyone had their own fic/mod reviewed where the reviewer said thay felt sad, when you did intend them to be sad?

I ask this because it's part of the whole "making the audience react how you want them to" thing. If I get my way, the Legend of Tayte might end with some mixed emotions... (Aptly termed by some as "Bittersweet.") I want to make sure this is possible so I can plan appropriately.


I've cried over some fics, Mari's fic about Anders' origin comes to mind. I've also cried over my own and had people tell me that they feel sad reading it when I intended for them to. And sometimes when I didn't. :?

#5788
DreGregoire

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What's a review? hahahah

#5789
Miri1984

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Undertow makes me cry EVERY SINGLE CHAPTER (damn you Surely) - sometimes it's from relief though. And there have been a fair few that do that to me.

When I originally wrote True Companions I intended it to be funny, then I got about six reviews telling me people had cried. So I re-read it and guess what - it was mind crushingly depressing and the main character had suicidal tendencies and both the characters were completely broken. I hadn't intended that to happen at all, considering the whole idea for the fic came out of a throw away line in one of my other fics.

That's an example of my characters getting away from me and doing what they want.

Edited to add: I freely admit I am a soppy, soppy person. I cry watching Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Modifié par Miri1984, 03 octobre 2010 - 01:37 .


#5790
LupusYondergirl

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SurelyForth wrote...

I get flack for being the puppetmaster, but I don't get conflated with my characters when they do things that my readers disagree with. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I write from several perspectives? There's definitely a main character, but I'm not writing from her head all the time. Thank goodness.

You have a good point.  I suspect writing from first person perspective does exaggerate that for me. 

Ugh.
I'm just miffed because someone sent me a diatribe about how wrong hotbutton-issue-x is and what a monster I am for advocating it because they read a chapter where Maggie did something planting her on one side of said issue

Which wouldn't be nearly as frustrating if I didn't fall on the complete other side of the issue.  To the point that I've done political advocacy work for it.

And this is super vague since I don't want to start some kind of big political thing because this is SO not the place for that.  I'm just upset since I just had a reader rip me a new as*hole over this.

#5791
Addai

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jackkel dragon wrote...

Loghain better not be a Gaider/Kirby self-insert. Even with his justifications he's nasty...

lolwut?  I'm guessing you're joking, but Loghain is a very realized character, and a lot of the way he is can be explained IMO by his earliest experiences.

*hugs TST tight*

I love that book.  I wish Bioware had given Gaider more time to write out the middle parts.

#5792
Miri1984

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Now I want to know what the issue was. Nosy Miri is nosy. But I know what you mean.



Oh, and I think I've worked out what the issue is so ignore me.. and if it's the one I think it was interesting and I loved the way you used Anders as the voice of reason there.

#5793
jackkel dragon

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Sarah1281 wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...

Loghain better not be a Gaider/Kirby self-insert. Even with his justifications he's nasty...

I strongly disagree but hope that that won't turn into another Loghain debate.


I may have said that incorrectly. It sounds like you think that I think of Loghain the way Alistair does.

I'm actually referring to what I consider the climax of the Stolen Throne: Maric's Hardening. I don't want to spoil too much here, but Maric wouldn't be happy if he knew that Loghain understood that a certain someone was going to switch to their side... But all of Loghain's reasonings are vindicated in the end.

It's not necessarily a sad scene, but I had some strong feelings when that went down.... (Even though I spoiled it by reading the Calling first and saw it coming anyway.)

I'll try to shut up now and try to finish a DA playthrough that doesn't involve sparing Loghain and whining that Alistair runs away... (Stupid Warden-Commander achievement evading my grasp...)

As for the Stolen Throne itself, I really felt it was an epic story that was squeezed into a small volume. It's as long (timeline-wise) as DAO, and covers almost every area that would be visited by the Warden. (I'll never see Ortan Thaig the same...)

----------

As a slightly-off-topic note, I'm writing a character in my module that I can see decorating her room with Loghain posters. I'm surprised the Hero of River Dane doesn't have a fan following in Ferelden...

Is it wierd that I'm almost to the point where I can "talk" to my characters in "public?" (Like Mary Kirby with Sten, Loghain, and Varric.)

#5794
jackkel dragon

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Addai67 wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...

Loghain better not be a Gaider/Kirby self-insert. Even with his justifications he's nasty...

lolwut?  I'm guessing you're joking, but Loghain is a very realized character, and a lot of the way he is can be explained IMO by his earliest experiences.

*hugs TST tight*

I love that book.  I wish Bioware had given Gaider more time to write out the middle parts.


I think I said it wrong.... I'm a Loghain fan that wishes the Fade sequence with Loghain wasn't cut (and that the story could allow the Landsmeet earlier again.) There's still toolset files for "Fade Maric." (No conversation, though. Posted Image)

Nasty wasn't the right word. My epithet for Loghain works better, I think: the Pragmatist.

I'm also a fan of Gaider's work. I wonder what he's writing in DA2...

#5795
LupusYondergirl

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Miri1984 wrote...

Now I want to know what the issue was. Nosy Miri is nosy. But I know what you mean.

Oh, and I think I've worked out what the issue is so ignore me.. and if it's the one I think it was interesting and I loved the way you used Anders as the voice of reason there.

The one with the Templars where Anders ripped into Greagoir after? 

And I don't think there's any other decision either of them would even be willing to entertain, given their personalities and the culture they live in.  It's absolutely something I would never, ever do, for a handful of political and philosophical reasons, but I'm not them. 

#5796
Miri1984

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Actually no, I was thinking of the issue where Maggie was talking about taking her time to kill the slaver dude. But the other issue - yes, I see your point there too. People need to understand that it's a different world to ours and morality is different and Maggie goes around killing things all the time, so naturally things are going to be a bit skewed.

#5797
LupusYondergirl

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Oh, ok. No, that wasn't it. I think it was just because the other one touched on something that is pretty controversial and current. The other is so deep into fictional territory that I don't think anyone could compare it to real life. Or, you know, tell me I'm a bloodthirsty monster from a nation of barbarians because of it... :huh::unsure:

But it's like... dude, I'm a freaking Buddhist. There are people in comas who are more bloodthirsty than me. All my aggression goes into writing about bloody things and killing pixels. My fictional character is so not me, for so many reasons. Although who knows, maybe they think I can set things on fire with my mind, too. That would probably make lighting the grill easier in the summer...

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 03 octobre 2010 - 04:54 .


#5798
jackkel dragon

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LupusYondergirl wrote...

Although who knows, maybe they think I can set things on fire with my mind, too. That would probably make lighting the grill easier in the summer...


I once read an article about why D+D shouldn't be banned from a Christian author. He claims he can't shoot fire from his fingers by consuming bat guano. He told readers to notify him if they could. Best D+D "from a religious perspective" article ever.

#5799
Miri1984

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OMG - there was a fantastic comedy show where they tried to show how ridiculous it was that people thought these things taught real magic and I can't remember what it is and it's really bugging me. In any case - they did really cool things like strapping chicken feathers to sticks so that they could be Harry Potter wands. It was hilarious and I wish I could remember what show it was.

#5800
LupusYondergirl

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You know, I think I'm going to make a cup of cocoa and weep for the future of our species.



I remember the D&D controversies... my mom was so freaked out when I started playing. "You'll become a devil worshiper!"

I don't think my smartass teenage response of "does that mean we're going to become rich since you like soap operas?" was appropriate.



A school district around here wanted to ban Harry Potter and Twilight books. It ended up not happening since their spokesperson couldn't say five words without looking, well, insane. Since, you know, there's a lot of reasons to dislike Twilight. Saying it will ENCOURAGE KIDS TO BECOME VAMPIRES is not one of them. Because that is INSANE PERSON TALK.

*sigh*