10369 réponses à ce sujet

[LupusYondergirl]

Wow.
I so did not intend to start a grammar ****storm. Really.

So, well... last thing I'll say:
Shakespeare invented words. But I am not Shakespeare, nor is, I would guess, a single person writing today. In that I am including anyone working in fanfic, genre fic, mainstream fic, or anything else. I'd wager there have been less than fifty people who have equaled Shakespeare's genius in the last four hundred years. Joyce, Beckett, Twain, Dickens, Faulkner, Yeats, Whitman, Steinbeck, Byron, Shelley... I'm sure the list is colored by my own preferences, but you see my point, right?
People like this change the language. People like this change the world.

The rest of us? Well, there's only so far we can push boundaries before a reader begins to question our competency.
And you can certainly use invented spellings, text-speak, whatever you choose. But really, I don't think anyone has ever said "The grammar and spelling in this story is far too correct, I simply can't stand to read another chapter full of accurately spelled words and proper comma usage!"
Plenty of people have said the opposite, though.

If you're fine with that, well, go right on ahead and have fun. That is, after all, the entire point of writing fanfic.

But don't tell yourself that, just because English lacks an equivalent to the Académie française, it is some sort of grammatical free for all. There are established rules. Few would consider a word legitimate before it appears in the OED. While I can't speak for other nations, in the US the rules of grammar and style set by the MLA are the respected standard. I've got the latest edition of the MLA handbook sitting right next to my computer on my desk, in fact.

Sorry... it just bothers me when people say things like "there are no rules in English," or "it's a mess" and the like. I love the English language. It has the second largest vocabulary of any contemporary language. It has produced some of the most moving and beautiful fiction, poetry, and theater ever written. It is able to grow and adapt with changing times, while still allowing us to read and love things written hundreds of years ago without trouble. I am amazed and astounded and thrilled that the same language has been used to create everything from Marlowe's mighty line and Shakespeare's iambic pentameter to Austen's witty dialogue, Dickens' sentimentality, Hemingway's minimalism, Faulkner's powerful attention to cadence, and so much more.
The English language is awesome. We should be nice to it.

(And the decline of Latin coincides quite impressively with the fall of Rome and the dawn of the Dark Ages. Just saying...)

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 04 octobre 2010 - 09:37 .

[Sarah1281]

Well said. Why can't I be that eloquent? 

[Creature 1]

LupusYondergirl wrote...
But don't tell yourself that, just because English lacks an equivalent to the Académie française, it is some sort of grammatical free for all. There are established rules. Few would consider a word legitimate before it appears in the OED. While I can't speak for other nations, in the US the rules of grammar and style set by the MLA are the respected standard. I've got the latest edition of the MLA handbook sitting right next to my computer on my desk, in fact.

Is it accepted because it's standard, or is it standard because it's accepted?  I think it is the latter. 

Copy/paste ftw: 

I think the rules of language are more like guidelines. There's no revealed form of English handed down from on high. The only question at any given time is, "Does it work?" If someone's abbreviating words left and right, leaving out punctuation, and misspelling even simple words I'll skip reading the fic because it's too much work to sort it out. Language evolves, but like biological evolution, it's slow. Organisms that mutate too drastically die, and fics that break too many rules don't get read. People should go with the current consensus in writing not because the consensus is *right*, but because it's the most efficient way to communicate.  

LupusYondergirl wrote...
(And the decline of Latin coincides quite impressively with the fall of Rome and the dawn of the Dark Ages. Just saying...)

I think that goes quite a bit too far. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Sarah, because you write satire and comedy fanfics of a less high-brow variety.

Which is good, and you should stick to parody, but just different specialties, you know?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 04 octobre 2010 - 09:52 .

[Sarah1281]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sarah, because you write satire and comedy fanfics of a less high-brow variety.

Which is good, and you should stick to parody, but just different specialties, you know?

Thank you so much for taking a rhetorical question and turning it into an excuse to tell me to stick to non-intellectual pursuits.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sarah, because you write satire and comedy fanfics of a less high-brow variety.

Which is good, and you should stick to parody, but just different specialties, you know?

Thank you so much for taking a rhetorical question and turning it into an excuse to tell me to stick to non-intellectual pursuits.

Sarah.

You make sex jokes in your writing.

Nuff* said.

*Not that Shakespear didn't, but he did it in a different way. Yours are funnier.

[Sarah1281]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sarah, because you write satire and comedy fanfics of a less high-brow variety.

Which is good, and you should stick to parody, but just different specialties, you know?

Thank you so much for taking a rhetorical question and turning it into an excuse to tell me to stick to non-intellectual pursuits.

Sarah.

You make sex jokes in your writing.

Nuff* said.

*Not that Shakespear didn't, but he did it in a different way. Yours are funnier.

I think you're somewhat missing the point here. I agree with Lupus but felt that she put it better than I did. My 'Why can't I be that eloquent?' was really a rhetorical question complimenting her than asking someone to tell me what's wrong with how I write.

And I don't just write parodies. They take less time, yes, but telling someone that what they do is lowbrow and then telling them to stick to that and leaving anything vaguely intellectual for other people is highly insulting.

[LupusYondergirl]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well said. Why can't I be that eloquent? 

Thank you!
I've been involved in an intense love affair with the English language for going on three decades now.  I tend to get fairly impassioned when it comes to defending it.

I suspect I may be roasted alive, but I'll live.  I really, honestly believe language is power, and understanding how to properly use it gives us strength.  It makes me sad to see people who don't understand this.  Literacy, or even full competency, can make the difference between acceptance and rejection from school.  It can be the difference between a promotion and stagnation, it can be getting a call for an interview compared to your resume going into the recycling bin.  No one, ever, has been harmed by knowing the rules of their own language.  Countless people are hurt every single day because they lack that knowledge.

I'm not going to counter-argue with anyone, though.  I've devoted my entire life to the English language and literature.  My views are set, I've only shared them.  I'm honestly neither interested in nor open to a debate on the subject because there is nothing anyone, anywhere, can say which will convince me that my language lacks form and structure when I have spent years learning and attempting to master that form and structure, or that they are somehow as qualified as Shakespeare to invent words and change spellings.  I'm sure that sounds incredibly stubborn, but really, I'm only being honest.
Getting into an argument won't serve any use beyond filling the thread with hostility.  I've shared what I think.  If it changes someone's opinion or gives them pause, fine.  If not, fine.  There's really nothing more I can add and repeating myself ad nauseam would just annoy everyone (myself included!).


Ohh... ok. Two things.
One: That line about Rome? Hyperbole, dude. Seriously. They do share a timeline, but I would honestly attribute the a decline in educational standards to the fall of Rome's centralized government and economy far more than the reverse. It was, you know, a joke. To lighten the mood. One that failed quite miserably, apparently.

Two: Dean, I have to agree with Sarah. That is a really screwed up thing to say to someone.
It comes across as being incredibly dismissive of her, and you've also managed to dismiss an entire legitimate genre of fiction as somehow being less worthy of respect than another. Parody and satire are some of the oldest forms of English prose, predating even the novel, and low brow is hardly a disqualifier when it comes to the English language. Don't believe me? Read some Jonathan Swift. The man wrote sh*t poetry. I kid you not. Sh*t. Poetry.. Or go further back, if you want, to Chaucer. Who invented the rimj*b? Chaucer invented the rimj*b. Just knowing that makes me want to grab a set of pompoms and lead a cheer in honor of English literature.
Yes, the years I've spent learning things like this is exactly why I'll be paying off student loans up until my retirement.

[soignee]

LupusYondergirl wrote...


Shakespeare invented words. But I am not Shakespeare, nor is, I would guess, a single person writing today. In that I am including anyone working in fanfic, genre fic, mainstream fic, or anything else. I'd wager there have been less than fifty people who have equaled Shakespeare's genius in the last four hundred years. Joyce, Beckett, Twain, Dickens, Faulkner, Yeats, Whitman, Steinbeck, Byron, Shelley... I'm sure the list is colored by my own preferences, but you see my point, right?

But I do not speak the language of Dickens now. I do not have conversations in iambic form. However, does not mean that these writers have not influenced me -as it happens, I love Joyce- but the way I speak now doesn't match their English. 

Besides, Samuel Pepys would totally have a Twitter account now.

LupusYondergirl wrote...

Sorry... it just bothers me when people say things like "there are no rules in English," or "it's a mess" and the like. I love the English language. It has the second largest vocabulary of any contemporary language.

So do I, which is why I fight my corner. I love English, I love the way it is communicated in all forms. I don't see where I've put it on the docks and sentenced it to die anywhere in my writing, but apologies if you thought that.

Every time someone sniggers at a greengrocer's apparent lack of the use of an apostrophe or  or how "ghastly" it is for a noun to become a verb, or some such nonsense, I roll my eyes so far it almost becomes visceral, and wish for an ARMY OF PANDAS to stare menacingly at the pedant until they go away. In my head, anyway.

English is a slowly evolving organism, to steal creature_1's analogy, but moves faster then you think. Like lava, or possibly treacle.

LupusYondergirl wrote...
The English language is awesome. We should be nice to it.

Okay this reminds me of this quote that I got by way of Someone Smarter Then Me: sprache ist die Allerweltshure, die ich zur Jungfrau mache. ("My language is the universal wh*re that I must make virgin.") 

I say give that girl some gin and and let her get on with it, she seems to be having fun. English isn't be wh*red, she's just enjoying herself. 

LupusYondergirl wrote...
(And the decline of Latin coincides quite impressively with the fall of Rome and the dawn of the Dark Ages. Just saying...)

Yeah, English isn't dying, no worry there.  Actually one of my favourite things to do is play Language Overlap when I'm talking to my Australian, Swedish and American friends, and how even though we speak the same language the cultural differences in words alone are astounding. Even as something as innoculous as a Daddy' Long Legs
is different. (They're the insect form leatherjackets here, and not arachnid.)

But! Since this is a fanfiction topic of a sort, I'll mention that all this has spiralled the awesome thought of a modern day Dragon Age and the companions communicating in  English Ferelden, and what that would be like:

--Leliana would have a Tumblr where she posted cute animal pictures and shoes she liked, and reblogged charity appeals.
--Morrigan would possibly have a Livejournal account KNOW ONE WOULD KNOW ABOUT apart form Flemeth, as she knows everything.
--Oghren would have a computer for porn, and porn alone. Oh, and possibly 4Chan. LOOK WARDEN, AHHAHA. LOOK WHAT I FOUND ON THE INTERNETS.
--Sten would surprise you all and have an iphone, with Qunari approved aps.
--Wynne would be obsessed with Farmville.
--Alistair would have a Facebook, and have a fair amount of pictures due to being on the chantry's rugby team/Grey Warden etc. 
--Zevran would Tweet, and would master the art of filling 180 characters in a creatively smutty fashion on his twitter feed. 
--Shale secretly would be on a forum that plotted the death of birds.
--Loghain would've had a twitter, blog and his own website ...but someone was paid to do it in his name.

[LupusYondergirl]

Oghren would be a regular poster on the Something Awful forums. They would all love him and treat him as a mascot of sorts.

Zevran would have a twitter, not unlike "Sh*t My Dad Says," where he chronicles Oghren's exploits. Everyone but Oghren would know about it.

Wynne would send too many email forwards about children dying from diseases and visions of Andraste appearing in a loaf of bread.



Loghain would dismiss iphones as silly, but be chained to his blackberry.



And I admit, I spent a week giggling over fake facebook conversations I made between my fic characters.

[Miri1984]

Anders would have the most friends on facebook.



Sigrun would TOTALLY write fanfiction!



Nathaniel would prefer handwritten letters



Velanna would be online stalked by city elves.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sarah, because you write satire and comedy fanfics of a less high-brow variety.

Which is good, and you should stick to parody, but just different specialties, you know?

Thank you so much for taking a rhetorical question and turning it into an excuse to tell me to stick to non-intellectual pursuits.

Sarah.

You make sex jokes in your writing.

Nuff* said.

*Not that Shakespear didn't, but he did it in a different way. Yours are funnier.

I think you're somewhat missing the point here. I agree with Lupus but felt that she put it better than I did. My 'Why can't I be that eloquent?' was really a rhetorical question complimenting her than asking someone to tell me what's wrong with how I write.

Nothing's wrong with the way you write. And I'll apologize for implying otherwise.

And I don't just write parodies. They take less time, yes, but telling someone that what they do is lowbrow and then telling them to stick to that and leaving anything vaguely intellectual for other people is highly insulting.

I wouldn't, but then it's apparent you don't think of this as I would.

Let me back track and just say: this was supposed to be a gentle ribbing. Not mockery. Not actually calling you or your writing style stupid or primitive.

So you aren't Shakespear. Most writers aren't. And that's a good thing: I find most Shakespear so wordy as to be impossible to enjoy. I require a ancient-phrases translator just to catch some of the word play. Yours, I don't, and it's less wordplay but logic play, which I find far more interesting and amusing. 'Low brow' wasn't meant as an insult as all, but rather the reverse: something sensible, understandable, appreciable. Even enjoyable.

It was not my intent to offend. Merely to make light of.

But you have taken offense to it, and so I will freely and openly apologize. And here it is:

Sarah, I'm sorry.

But not for liking your comedic tone and style better than Hamlet. That I won't take back.

[soignee]

--Leske would have both a Grindr and a Myspace for the ladiiiiiiiiezzzzzzzz.

--Gorim would filter the Aeducan's emails for them, and be chained to their Blackberry like every good PA would be

--Shianni would be on facebook and be drunk and making Facebook Drunk Girl faces in every damn photo

--Tamlen? Hahah he wouldn't even have an email, strikes me at the sort. But will leave angry THIS IS WHY SHEMLEN ARE SHEMLEN warblgarbl'd comments on Youtube.

--Jowan would have an LJ and whine in it. A lot. But they would all be locked entries.

--Fergus Cousland would link you weird crap he found online, he seems the sort. Coulsand!Mama secretly scrapbooks and frequents scrapbooking websites for tips.

[LupusYondergirl]

Jowan would write Bad Goth Poetry on Deviantart.

He would also be obsessed with Failblog and the Darwin Awards, because they makes him feel slightly better about himself.



Cullen would post to religious forums about trying to overcome temptation.

He would then look at mage porn and try to erase the browser history, failing badly.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sarah, because you write satire and comedy fanfics of a less high-brow variety.

Which is good, and you should stick to parody, but just different specialties, you know?

Thank you so much for taking a rhetorical question and turning it into an excuse to tell me to stick to non-intellectual pursuits.

Sarah.

You make sex jokes in your writing.

Nuff* said.

*Not that Shakespear didn't, but he did it in a different way. Yours are funnier.

I think you're somewhat missing the point here. I agree with Lupus but felt that she put it better than I did. My 'Why can't I be that eloquent?' was really a rhetorical question complimenting her than asking someone to tell me what's wrong with how I write.

Nothing's wrong with the way you write. And I'll apologize for implying otherwise.

And I don't just write parodies. They take less time, yes, but telling someone that what they do is lowbrow and then telling them to stick to that and leaving anything vaguely intellectual for other people is highly insulting.

I wouldn't, but then it's apparent you don't think of this as I would.

Let me back track and just say: this was supposed to be a gentle ribbing. Not mockery. Not actually calling you or your writing style stupid or primitive.

So you aren't Shakespear. Most writers aren't. And that's a good thing: I find most Shakespear so wordy as to be impossible to enjoy. I require a ancient-phrases translator just to catch some of the word play. Yours, I don't, and it's less wordplay but logic play, which I find far more interesting and amusing. 'Low brow' wasn't meant as an insult as all, but rather the reverse: something sensible, understandable, appreciable. Even enjoyable.

It was not my intent to offend. Merely to make light of.

But you have taken offense to it, and so I will freely and openly apologize. And here it is:

Sarah, I'm sorry.

But not for liking your comedic tone and style better than Hamlet. That I won't take back.

Um...Dean? This has nothing to do with Shakespear.

Lupus wrote an opinion about English and grammar.

Sarah commented on Lupus' eloquence as a rhetorical question.

You somehow construed from this that Sarah is incapable of a well-written argument purely because you know her for writing fanfic parodies/comedy.

All Sarah was saying was that Lupus expressed an opinion better than she thinks she could have.

Kudos for apologising and all, but you're still missing the point, I think...

[mousestalker]

soignee wrote...
Besides, Samuel Pepys would totally have a Twitter account now.

Alright, the gauntlet has been thrown and I must take sides. Pepys would totally have a blog and be on Facebook. Pepys would be a Farmville obsessive.

Just to set the record straight...

[mousestalker]

Oh and I have one word for Zevran on the Internet: Chatroulette. Y'all know that's exactly what he would do.

[nefand]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

On the subject of broodmother taint, Gaider implied that female Wardens could still be corrupted to the point of being broodmothers, but as they are infertile they cannot reproduce.

*twitches violently*

Infertile... but... WHY?!?

DAMMIT I WANT ANSWERS!!!

Human ovum are premade at birth in females, and the eggs are wrapped in little biological kevlar vests in the ovaries... the genetic code is tucked inside the mitochondria in super tight little coiled up packs waiting for the chemical signals to unwind and begin replication.

They simply would not compromised by a virus or fungal infection.

The one example we have in the lore from Fiona indicates that being a GW does not stop ovulation or otherwise interfere with the passage of the egg down the fallopian tube, fertlization or implantation.

AT BEST, being a GW female could create a problem during the first 2-12 weeks of gestation post-implantation when the genetic replication is most active in the emerging blastocyst but AFTER it has attached to the uterine wall, and thus becomes dependent on the female's blood supply for nourishment: said blood supply which is infected with the taint sickness (viral or fungal in origin, the lore could go either way based on available data on infection vectors and symptomology).

So then you MIGHT see some mutations in the genetic code ranging from slight deformities and/or mental deficiencies to straight up darkspawn babies... but even that would be dictated statistically, meaning you would have equal chances of anomalies as you would of normalities and miscarriages (1 in 3 all the way around).


I swear, sometimes it's like my head is going to explode from the random statements made by the folks at Bioware...

[Creature 1]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

I suspect I may be roasted alive, but I'll live.  I really, honestly believe language is power, and understanding how to properly use it gives us strength.  It makes me sad to see people who don't understand this.  Literacy, or even full competency, can make the difference between acceptance and rejection from school.  It can be the difference between a promotion and stagnation, it can be getting a call for an interview compared to your resume going into the recycling bin.  No one, ever, has been harmed by knowing the rules of their own language.  Countless people are hurt every single day because they lack that knowledge.

I'm not going to counter-argue with anyone, though.  I've devoted my entire life to the English language and literature.  My views are set, I've only shared them.  I'm honestly neither interested in nor open to a debate on the subject because there is nothing anyone, anywhere, can say which will convince me that my language lacks form and structure when I have spent years learning and attempting to master that form and structure, or that they are somehow as qualified as Shakespeare to invent words and change spellings.  I'm sure that sounds incredibly stubborn, but really, I'm only being honest.

Good, since no one is saying consensus doesn't exist in language, or that you don't need to know standard practice in grammar/spelling/punctuation in order to get a decent job, or that that most individuals are capable of single-handedly changing conventional spelling and coining words in their lifetime (although your odds of inventing a word are much higher, see Dawkins and the meme), we can now move on to more rewarding topics. 

[mousestalker]

@nefand. It may help to just step away from the use of science, pretend that magic explains it, somehow, and have a stiff drink. It least that's what helps me. That and a hot bath. Hot baths help with everything.

Modifié par mousestalker, 05 octobre 2010 - 12:47 .

[LupusYondergirl]

nefand wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

On the subject of broodmother taint, Gaider implied that female Wardens could still be corrupted to the point of being broodmothers, but as they are infertile they cannot reproduce.

*twitches violently*

Infertile... but... WHY?!?

DAMMIT I WANT ANSWERS!!!

Infertility isn't just inability to conceive, though.  It may also be an inability to carry a child to term.  Perhaps the taint within the body does something that induces spontaneous miscarriage in almost every pregnancy a Grey Warden has?

[nefand]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

Infertility isn't just inability to conceive, though.  It may also be an inability to carry a child to term.  Perhaps the taint within the body does something that induces spontaneous miscarriage in almost every pregnancy a Grey Warden has?

Clinically, I *think* they are treated as separate items, with infertility specifically regarded as an inability to conceive, and spontaneous miscarriage being secondary to other underlying causes... but in the broad sense, yes I can see where one might speak in generalities either through choice or... (ahem)... other reasons and lump it all under the term "infertility" and thus make nitpickers like myself go ABSOLUTELY INSANE WITH WORD RAGE.

*sigh*

I think mousestalker is right, a nice stiff drink and a hot bath and I can just pretend it's magic and that's that...

[LupusYondergirl]

When in doubt, "a wizard did it."
It works for everything.

Although, FWIW, there are several modern diseases that can cause women who were once fertile to become unable to concieve. 
Thyroid problems can cause alter someone's metabolism and cause infrequent periods and ovulation.  Since it seems like Grey Wardens have fairly elevated metabolisms compared to normal people this might actually make sense.  So, perhaps female Grey Wardens aren't "broken" in that their eggs are damaged, but rather that their periods are infrequent and irregular.  

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 05 octobre 2010 - 12:47 .

[Creature 1]

nefand wrote...
AT BEST, being a GW female could create a problem during the first 2-12 weeks of gestation post-implantation when the genetic replication is most active in the emerging blastocyst but AFTER it has attached to the uterine wall, and thus becomes dependent on the female's blood supply for nourishment: said blood supply which is infected with the taint sickness (viral or fungal in origin, the lore could go either way based on available data on infection vectors and symptomology).

Could be implantation failure, perhaps hormonal changes that make the endometrium very thin or a change in the immune system.  The endometrium is a privileged site as far as the immune system is concerned, otherwise the implanting blastocyst would be rejected and killed.  If implantation does succeed and the Taint isn't capable of crossing the placenta a normal fetus could result, but that doesn't answer the question how the baby can make it through delivery without getting poisoned.  Perhaps it's a dosage thing.  

[Reika]

nefand wrote...

LupusYondergirl wrote...

Infertility isn't just inability to conceive, though.  It may also be an inability to carry a child to term.  Perhaps the taint within the body does something that induces spontaneous miscarriage in almost every pregnancy a Grey Warden has?

Clinically, I *think* they are treated as separate items, with infertility specifically regarded as an inability to conceive, and spontaneous miscarriage being secondary to other underlying causes... but in the broad sense, yes I can see where one might speak in generalities either through choice or... (ahem)... other reasons and lump it all under the term "infertility" and thus make nitpickers like myself go ABSOLUTELY INSANE WITH WORD RAGE.

*sigh*

I think mousestalker is right, a nice stiff drink and a hot bath and I can just pretend it's magic and that's that...

Yeah, in fantasy it's always easier to blame it on magic.

My bet though is it's the mother's tainted blood that attacks the fetus once it's attached to the mother's blood supply. And on the father's side, it probably reduces the number of, erm, swimmers. So it makes it harder for the ovum to get fertilized and if it does, the Taint attacks the baby.

Hmmm