10369 réponses à ce sujet

[nefand]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So, question: People have to know that Katriel existed as she was hanging around Maric for quite some time and gave them the bad information that led to a massacre. Do we know what Loghain and Maric told people about why she was suddenly out of the picture? Do we just assume that they said that she died somewhere?

There were witnesses to what happened.  Loghain was very specific in TST that Maric needed to make an example of Katriel for the others to see the price of betrayal (plus his specific need of her to push Maric in his transition from man to kingly figurehead).

And while I don't recall it being specifically mentioned in TST, I always assumed that Mother Alais' journals would detail what went down for the Chantry's records as well... which would/could presumably become information available to a King Alistair at some point down the road.

(not that I'm giving up any spoilers to EoG or anything... *shifty eyes*)

[nefand]

LupusYondergirl wrote...
Agreed. I don't think it was Loghain being a bastard or 'tricking' Maric into killing her, it was Loghain knowing there was no way Maric would do the right thing and doing what he could to try and make sure justice was done. Maric would see the woman in front of him apologizing, and not the hundreds dead because of her actions. Given how Ferelden society seems to operate there's really no suitable punishment for what she did other than death.

Wait, did we all read the same book?

Loghain and Katriel have a conversation in the Deep Roads about how Maric isn't quite finished baking into a king yet, the implication of which is that Loghain hints something drastic needs to happen to shift Maric's personality and Katriel agrees.

By this point in the story, Loghain already suspects Katriel is a spy, and has reason to be miffed at both her and Maric personally b/c of his feelings toward Rowan, and seeing her upset over Maric's complete obliviousness to her EMOness.

Later, Katriel heads off to meet her Orlesian master knowing full well that Loghain is having her followed.  She tells the Orlesians to bugger off, and leaves to return to Maric with the intention of confessing her role in the events of West Hill.  But Loghain is already there, and where Maric is distraught and upset at Katriel's admission it is Loghain's pushing him that really sends the entire encounter into sword-thrusting territory.

Maric instantly regrets it, but Loghain is like... yeah, that's that needed to happen.  You're a KING now, made an example of that ****, booyah.

And we know THIS because several pages later when Loghain tells Rowan to go to Maric he essentially admits (or claims) that he orchestrated Maric into killing Katriel, despite knowing that she was coming to confess her crimes and pledge her assistance to them, and the reason he did was because Ferelden needed a king, and now Maric needed her (Rowan) as queen.

Rowan is pissed by this admission, and tells Loghain that Katriel is the only woman Maric ever truly loved.  She ends up shunning Loghain completely, and going to Maric in the name of duty, and the reader is left to believe that Loghain is this soulless bastard who orchestrated two couple's worth of personal misery for the sake of his country.

Now, granted, the characterization in TST is poorly done and feels incredibly rushed toward the end, but I'm fairly confident in the assessment that this is what was intended to be conveyed to the reader.

[Sarah1281]

I haven't read it yet, obviously, but from you wrote would it be too farfetched to believe that Loghain told Rowan (who did not want to leave him and go marry Maric) what she needed to hear in order to do what he wanted her to do?



Could Katriel's change of heart be trusted? How would Loghain or Maric really know for sure? Maybe they were going to set themselves up for another betrayal. What if anyone found out that Maric let half the army die because he was thinking with the wrong head and let an Orlesian bard have so much influence over him? Would they respect and follow him then? Were they just supposed to forget about what Katriel had already done? If it had the added bonus of hardening Maric (and maybe that was even the main point to her death) that doesn't change the fact that killing her made practical sense.

[Miri1984]

I have to say that Loghain's characterisation in TST did nothing for me. I didn't like him before I read it, didn't like him after it. Oh, and I was none to fond of Maric either. In all, I much MUCH preferred The Calling - but more for Fiona and Duncan. Again, Maric pissed me off.

[LupusYondergirl]

I really didn't like Maric in the calling. Watching him try to befriend Fiona was like watching a lion going after a wounded gazelle. Seriously, she's what, ten, fifteen years younger than him and survived years of brutal sexual abuse? Just... no.
It wasn't romantic, it was creepy.

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 12 octobre 2010 - 03:37 .

[nefand]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I haven't read it yet, obviously, but from you wrote would it be too farfetched to believe that Loghain told Rowan (who did not want to leave him and go marry Maric) what she needed to hear in order to do what he wanted her to do?

Could Katriel's change of heart be trusted? How would Loghain or Maric really know for sure? Maybe they were going to set themselves up for another betrayal. What if anyone found out that Maric let half the army die because he was thinking with the wrong head and let an Orlesian bard have so much influence over him? Would they respect and follow him then? Were they just supposed to forget about what Katriel had already done? If it had the added bonus of hardening Maric (and maybe that was even the main point to her death) that doesn't change the fact that killing her made practical sense.

Katriel's change of heart was trustworthy b/c she left postumous instructions for Maric to find that told him how to kill the Ursuper's mage (who was unkillable, essentially) and other information for him and Loghain on how to roust the Orlesians from Ferelden.

She gave them Ferelden, in the end, and in her letter to Maric she forgave him for killing her... which she knew would happen b/c Loghain would demand it.

edit: Also, Maric wasn't at West Hill, he got himself... caught or something, as I recall, and Loghain and Rowan had to go rescue him.

Modifié par nefand, 12 octobre 2010 - 03:49 .

[Sarah1281]

And Loghain had read her letter beforehand?



If he had, that still doesn't change the rest about what a loose end she was and what a potentially fatal blow to Maric's credibility everyone finding out what Katriel had done and Maric had just forgiven her and let her stay or sent her off to not deal with the consequences of her actions. And her 'Oh, I won't kill you because BARDIC HONOR FORBIDS IT' to her former employer seemed really stupid. She could have avoided all that mess by just taking him out right then.

[nefand]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

I really didn't like Maric in the calling. Watching him try to befriend Fiona was like watching a lion going after a wounded gazelle. Seriously, she's what, ten, fifteen years younger than him and survived years of brutal sexual abuse? Just... no.  It wasn't romantic, it was creepy.

I tend to agree.  I felt like the entire relationship was forced, TBH.

We spend 2/3's of the book watching Fiona & Maric at each other's throats, then Maric sheds a tear, they spend some time in the Fade (cue Katriel to save the day yet AGAIN) and suddenly Fiona is dropping her odd mix of chainmail and skirts for Ferelden's king in the Deep Roads because she wants to be with a 'decent man' for a change?

if I hadn't been in Six Sigma training that week, I might've thrown that book at something from sheer frustration.  As it was, it was stll more interesting than the stupid yellow belt class.

[nefand]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And Loghain had read her letter beforehand?

If he had, that still doesn't change the rest about what a loose end she was and what a potentially fatal blow to Maric's credibility everyone finding out what Katriel had done and Maric had just forgiven her and let her stay or sent her off to not deal with the consequences of her actions. And her 'Oh, I won't kill you because BARDIC HONOR FORBIDS IT' to her former employer seemed really stupid. She could have avoided all that mess by just taking him out right then.

Loghain didn't know about the letter, no.

And Maric had already defended her to the nobles and held her up as a shining example of goodness by that point based on some other stuff she had done.

Like I said, the book makes it pretty clear that the reason Maric & Loghain prevail over the Orlesians in the end is because of what Katriel did to aid them, both when she was alive and postumously.  The entire setup was contrived to make Loghain out to be the scheming bastard by the end, and Katriel the redeemed (and unsung) hero.

The events of West Hill could have easily been written off in an A/U by Maric et. al. as part of a broader plan to ensure Katriel's foil within the Orlesian ranks, thus faciliating Maric & Loghain's access to the mage and Usurper, after the fact if need be, without Katriel needing to die.  The ONLY reason for her death was Loghain's tunnel vision that the personal sacrifice from Maric was the only way to kill the man and crown the king, because Loghain felt that Maric was too weak to lead Ferelden.

Whether he was or not is open to speculation, IMO, depending on how your characters derive their strengths (an idea I'm playing with in EoG).  Loghain is the type of character who creates strength by pushing the things he loves the most away from himself; Maric, however, was the exact opposite... he drew strength by having the things he loved close to him.

When Maric killed Katriel, he really killed a part of himself, possibly the part that made him noble and inspirational as a king.  But Loghain thought his way was the only way, and never saw that Maric could be made stronger through personal bonds than without them.

[jackkel dragon]

@nefand: If only Alistair's hardening was as interesting and dicussion-worthy.

[Reika]

jackkel dragon wrote...

@nefand: If only Alistair's hardening was as interesting and dicussion-worthy.

I have to agree, it was a let down. Leliana's was interesting, and Morrigan's personal quest was extremely interesting.

But then again, I don't know about anyone else, but I write my fanfic to reshape the story to make more sense to me while trying to keep the overall plot and characters recognizable.

[Sarah1281]

Loghain didn't know about the letter, no.



And Maric had already defended her to the nobles and held her up as a shining example of goodness by that point based on some other stuff she had done.

Well if he didn't know about the letter then he had no reason to believe she was genuinely redeemed, did he? And if Maric had already spent so much time defending her and then people found out that his paragon of virtue was actually an Orlesian bard who had wiped out half the army and only got involved to kidnap Maric and was then asked to KILL him...yeah, that would not have gone over well. And since Katriel wouldn't even kill her employer (bardic honor? Seriously?) then there's every chance that information would have gotten out.

[Sarah1281]

Reika wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...

@nefand: If only Alistair's hardening was as interesting and dicussion-worthy.

I have to agree, it was a let down. Leliana's was interesting, and Morrigan's personal quest was extremely interesting.

But then again, I don't know about anyone else, but I write my fanfic to reshape the story to make more sense to me while trying to keep the overall plot and characters recognizable.

So do I. If someone's arguments make no senes in the game (i.e. "But Loghain! Strategy is boring and our issues with Orlais were so five minutes ago! I heart them!") then I'm going to try to find a way to make it seem a little more rational without changing the basic position (Orlais is no longer the enemy).

Oh, and also if I come across something that is, in my opinion, ridiculously stupid and thus need to work out my frustration with it in story-form (such as the idea that Orzammar would accept Leliana as its Queen or Cailan's plot with Celene. Seriously, was Maric half as idiotic as his firstborn?).

[LupusYondergirl]

Huh.Someone just emailed me and asked if they could translate my fic into Russian and repost it.

But their profile has absolutely zero information on it. I'm not really sure what to do here...

[Sarah1281]

That kind of thing has happened to me a few times. I had a 'why not?' type of approach becuase putting all that time and effort into translating something so huge was incredible and they made sure to mention that I was the author and put a link to the actual story. Now the 'Hey, can I totally do a Lily and the Marauders read your story fic?' requests, on the other hand...

[Maria13]

nefand wrote...

LupusYondergirl wrote...
Agreed. I don't think it was Loghain being a bastard or 'tricking' Maric into killing her, it was Loghain knowing there was no way Maric would do the right thing and doing what he could to try and make sure justice was done. Maric would see the woman in front of him apologizing, and not the hundreds dead because of her actions. Given how Ferelden society seems to operate there's really no suitable punishment for what she did other than death.

Wait, did we all read the same book?

Loghain and Katriel have a conversation in the Deep Roads about how Maric isn't quite finished baking into a king yet, the implication of which is that Loghain hints something drastic needs to happen to shift Maric's personality and Katriel agrees.

By this point in the story, Loghain already suspects Katriel is a spy, and has reason to be miffed at both her and Maric personally b/c of his feelings toward Rowan, and seeing her upset over Maric's complete obliviousness to her EMOness.

Later, Katriel heads off to meet her Orlesian master knowing full well that Loghain is having her followed.  She tells the Orlesians to bugger off, and leaves to return to Maric with the intention of confessing her role in the events of West Hill.  But Loghain is already there, and where Maric is distraught and upset at Katriel's admission it is Loghain's pushing him that really sends the entire encounter into sword-thrusting territory.

Maric instantly regrets it, but Loghain is like... yeah, that's that needed to happen.  You're a KING now, made an example of that ****, booyah.

And we know THIS because several pages later when Loghain tells Rowan to go to Maric he essentially admits (or claims) that he orchestrated Maric into killing Katriel, despite knowing that she was coming to confess her crimes and pledge her assistance to them, and the reason he did was because Ferelden needed a king, and now Maric needed her (Rowan) as queen.

Rowan is pissed by this admission, and tells Loghain that Katriel is the only woman Maric ever truly loved.  She ends up shunning Loghain completely, and going to Maric in the name of duty, and the reader is left to believe that Loghain is this soulless bastard who orchestrated two couple's worth of personal misery for the sake of his country.

Now, granted, the characterization in TST is poorly done and feels incredibly rushed toward the end, but I'm fairly confident in the assessment that this is what was intended to be conveyed to the reader.

OK I am ready to admit that I did not read TST in a lot of detail, but I got the same impression as nefand, ie Logain cajoles Maric into murdering K to get him to 'man up'.  Basically what would upset Alistair is that Katriel got no say before 'justice' was enacted, also, I think he would object especially because that this was happening to a woman and an elf. If K were male and human, would she have gotten more say?

I think executing people summarily because they are 'traitors' or what you would define as a traitor is a very dodgy path to take and definitely not a moral one. 

[Addai]

Maria13 wrote...

OK I am ready to admit that I did not read TST in a lot of detail, but I got the same impression as nefand, ie Logain cajoles Maric into murdering K to get him to 'man up'.  Basically what would upset Alistair is that Katriel got no say before 'justice' was enacted, also, I think he would object especially because that this was happening to a woman and an elf. If K were male and human, would she have gotten more say?

I think executing people summarily because they are 'traitors' or what you would define as a traitor is a very dodgy path to take and definitely not a moral one. 

I don't read it as Loghain orchestrating Katriel's death merely for the sake of hardening Maric to be king.  That is, I believe Loghain would have cut the woman's head off himself, and he didn't do it because he knew it was Maric's job to do, but not that he saw letting her off the hook as an alternative.  She was simply too dangerous to let live, besides the fact that she rather cold-bloodedly led the entire rebel army into a trap and justice demanded her death.  Her actions after the fact make her more of a tragic figure but don't change this one bit.  (Edit:  Ironically enough it's the same dynamic I see in Alistair demanding Loghain's death.  Some people see this as Alistair going off the deep end on a personal vendetta, whereas I think Loghain would have done the same thing if the shoe was on the other foot.)

And I don't think her being an elf or a woman made any difference.  If anything, she was given more of a pass because of it.  Loghain and Maric also executed the men who betrayed the Rebel Queen, and that despite the fact that they were noblemen who had armies behind them.

Re. Fiona and Maric, I love the romance, for the same reason I love my elven Wardens + Alistair.  It is the woman who has been traumatized by human men who can most find healing in a man who is genuinely good.  Not that Maric makes it all better for her, no.  But that dynamic is very touching and not at all creepy to me.  For one thing, Fiona practically has to rape the guy, it is not him going after her.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 octobre 2010 - 06:31 .

[Maria13]

Addai67 wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

OK I am ready to admit that I did not read TST in a lot of detail, but I got the same impression as nefand, ie Logain cajoles Maric into murdering K to get him to 'man up'.  Basically what would upset Alistair is that Katriel got no say before 'justice' was enacted, also, I think he would object especially because that this was happening to a woman and an elf. If K were male and human, would she have gotten more say?

I think executing people summarily because they are 'traitors' or what you would define as a traitor is a very dodgy path to take and definitely not a moral one. 

I don't read it as Loghain orchestrating Katriel's death merely for the sake of hardening Maric to be king.  That is, I believe Loghain would have cut the woman's head off himself, and he didn't do it because he knew it was Maric's job to do, but not that he saw letting her off the hook as an alternative.  She was simply too dangerous to let live, besides the fact that she rather cold-bloodedly led the entire rebel army into a trap and justice demanded her death.  Her actions after the fact make her more of a tragic figure but don't change this one bit.  (Edit:  Ironically enough it's the same dynamic I see in Alistair demanding Loghain's death.  Some people see this as Alistair going off the deep end on a personal vendetta, whereas I think Loghain would have done the same thing if the shoe was on the other foot.)

And I don't think her being an elf or a woman made any difference.  If anything, she was given more of a pass because of it.  Loghain and Maric also executed the men who betrayed the Rebel Queen, and that despite the fact that they were noblemen who had armies behind them.

Re. Fiona and Maric, I love the romance, for the same reason I love my elven Wardens + Alistair.  It is the woman who has been traumatized by human men who can most find healing in a man who is genuinely good.  Not that Maric makes it all better for her, no.  But that dynamic is very touching and not at all creepy to me.  For one thing, Fiona practically has to rape the guy, it is not him going after her.

I probably did not express myself too well, I don't think the only reason Log convinces Maric to kill her is to get him to man up although that played a part in it, but K got no say, obviously in a time of war that might be normal but it does strike me as somewhat unfair and as nefand I got the impression that this was Gaider's intention. 

Woman and elf, those are Ali's reasons (in my fic) together with the lack of say, for being unhappy with what his father did. Perhaps he does judge his father too harshly, and is biased because he already dislikes the way he feels his dad abandoned him...  Of course justice needs to be blind, and, objectively, the fact that she was an elf and female should play no part.

I read the noblemen slaying bit a few times for my FF as well and, again, it takes place in a Chantry under conditions of parley. For me, this is Gaider pointing the same way as with K and basically saying, "Well these may be my heros but they're not good guys, they can be dirty and treacherous too..." which takes TST throne into the realm of dark (or dirty) fantasy...

Modifié par Maria13, 12 octobre 2010 - 10:06 .

[Addai]

Maria13 wrote...

I read the nobleman slaying bit a few times as well and, again, it takes place in a chantry under conditions of parley, for me, this is Gaider pointing the same way as with K and basically saying, "Well these may be my heros but they're not good guys, they can be dirty and treacherous too..." which takes TST throne into the realm of dark (or dirty) fantasy...

Agreed, if you're reading Song of Ice and Fire as I recall from your ffnet profile that you are- I'm reminded of the Lannister- Stark- Baratheon takedown of the Targaryens.  You don't get very far in before you realize there aren't any heroes there, just winners and losers.

[Maria13]

Addai67 wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

I read the nobleman slaying bit a few times as well and, again, it takes place in a chantry under conditions of parley, for me, this is Gaider pointing the same way as with K and basically saying, "Well these may be my heros but they're not good guys, they can be dirty and treacherous too..." which takes TST throne into the realm of dark (or dirty) fantasy...

Agreed, if you're reading Song of Ice and Fire as I recall from your ffnet profile that you are- I'm reminded of the Lannister- Stark- Baratheon takedown of the Targaryens.  You don't get very far in before you realize there aren't any heroes there, just winners and losers.

Yes, precisely that.  I finished SoIaF in record time. I also find myself re-reading it. I so much prefer it to Tolkien (as I think does, Gaider) because the nobles are the ones playing the games and yes, they suffer but the ones that ultimately always suffer and who suffer most are the poor and underpriviledged so it's fantasy but with a social conscience...  The chantry scene reminds me of the 'blood wedding' scene where the Freys treacherously kill Robb Stark and Caitlin...  Oh yes, Katriel / Caitlin is the similarity a coincidence?

Modifié par Maria13, 12 octobre 2010 - 08:11 .

[LupusYondergirl]

Hell yeah! Just got my first accusation of Mary Sue-ism. (well, that anyone bothered to say to ME at least).
Ah.... I feel like I've finally arrived. Thank you anonymous reviewer!

(is it wrong that I'm endlessly amused by this?  and more of a 'so why read 75 chapters?' mindset than actually concerned with fixing anything?)

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 12 octobre 2010 - 07:52 .

[jackkel dragon]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

Hell yeah! Just got my first accusation of Mary Sue-ism. (well, that anyone bothered to say to ME at least).
Ah.... I feel like I've finally arrived. Thank you anonymous reviewer!

Weird. I was just considering cutting a scene from my story so that my character wasn't a Mary-Sue...

Sarah1281 wrote...

And since Katriel wouldn't even kill her employer (bardic honor? Seriously?)

I think that anyone who read the story would at least get a hint of what I like to call "BS" in the bardic honor thing. Katriel was giving the mage a chance to back out, but it was more a lesson in prdie bringing about a fall. Katriel's "honor" is allowing Severan to have a second chance, even though he won't take it.

Why is this honor (which isn't Orlesian or bardic at all) so significant?

Katriel is looking for a second chance she knows she won't get.

If she killed Severan, she would have to admit she had no chance at redemption.

[Maria13]

Miri1984 wrote...

I have to say that Loghain's characterisation in TST did nothing for me. I didn't like him before I read it, didn't like him after it. Oh, and I was none to fond of Maric either. In all, I much MUCH preferred The Calling - but more for Fiona and Duncan. Again, Maric pissed me off.

Agree with this.  So many times I've read people say "I didn't understand or care for Log until I read the books..." But I read the books and thought, meh, so what? I still don't like the guy...

[Sarah1281]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

Hell yeah! Just got my first accusation of Mary Sue-ism. (well, that anyone bothered to say to ME at least).
Ah.... I feel like I've finally arrived. Thank you anonymous reviewer!

(is it wrong that I'm endlessly amused by this?  and more of a 'so why read 75 chapters?' mindset than actually concerned with fixing anything?)

I don't think so. I'm actually kind of jealous that you can hear something like that and shake it off so easily. I don't recall if I'm ever been accused of Mary-Sue-ism but most of what I write has been humor so even if there ARE blatant Mary Sues (like Angélique or, well, Mary Sue) then people realize it's deliberate and that's part of the humor. I've gotten some negative reviews before (including this one oh-so-helpful person who told me I was a good writer but they just couldn't read the plot I was writing and advised me to stop wasting my talent) and they've always upset me for hours.

@Maria: What kind of 'say' should Katriel have gotten? A rebellion really has no time or resources for a trial and getting her to agree to get executed seems both unnecessary and unlikely. Should someone other than Maric have done it? Should they have asked her what her reasons for wiping out half of their army was? Somehow I don't think 'I'm an Orlesian bard and was told to' would have saved her life.

[jackkel dragon]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Somehow I don't think 'I'm an Orlesian bard and was told to' would have saved her life.

Might have worked on Maric.