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[LupusYondergirl]

The books did make me like Loghain more, but it was probably because I came away from them really disliking Maric.
Although I admit, I went into them disliking Maric what feels to me like his absolute indifference to how mistreated Alistair was as a child. (although I never got the line about him being dead long ago when the timeline says Maric died just five years before the game is set).

And speaking of TST, this was linked on peopleofthedas yesterday. I thought it was funny. The Stolen Throne in 15 minutes

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 12 octobre 2010 - 08:23 .

[Maria13]

Sarah1281 wrote...

@Maria: What kind of 'say' should Katriel have gotten? A rebellion really has no time or resources for a trial and getting her to agree to get executed seems both unnecessary and unlikely. Should someone other than Maric have done it? Should they have asked her what her reasons for wiping out half of their army was? Somehow I don't think 'I'm an Orlesian bard and was told to' would have saved her life.

Just a minimal chance to explain her actions... Why not? Take her into a room, tell her you suspect her of treachery and ask do you have anything to say on this or explain your actions?  That shouldn't take so long or many resources...

How do you know what she was going to say? Surely it's unfair to say to someone 'you're a traitor, I know what you're going to say in your own defence so I'll just go ahead and execute you before you say it...' 

[SurelyForth]

[quote]LupusYondergirl wrote...

The books did make me like Loghain more, but it was probably because I came away from them really disliking Maric.
Although I admit, I went into them disliking Maric what feels to me like his absolute indifference to how mistreated Alistair was as a child. (although I never got the line about him being dead long ago when the timeline says Maric died just five years before the game is set).

And speaking of TST, this was linked on peopleofthedas yesterday. I thought it was funny. The Stolen Throne in 15 minutes [/quote]


Why did they do 15 minutes when they could have got it done in one?

[quote]ROWAN: *cries*
LOGHAIN: *cries*
MARIC, in a different room: *cries*
ORLESIANS: And these people will overthrow our brutal occupation? I think not. [/qute]

Modifié par SurelyForth, 12 octobre 2010 - 08:34 .

[jackkel dragon]

Plot: *thickens*

[LupusYondergirl]

Sarah1281 wrote...

LupusYondergirl wrote...

Hell yeah! Just got my first accusation of Mary Sue-ism. (well, that anyone bothered to say to ME at least).
Ah.... I feel like I've finally arrived. Thank you anonymous reviewer!

(is it wrong that I'm endlessly amused by this?  and more of a 'so why read 75 chapters?' mindset than actually concerned with fixing anything?)

I don't think so. I'm actually kind of jealous that you can hear something like that and shake it off so easily. I don't recall if I'm ever been accused of Mary-Sue-ism but most of what I write has been humor so even if there ARE blatant Mary Sues (like Angélique or, well, Mary Sue) then people realize it's deliberate and that's part of the humor. I've gotten some negative reviews before (including this one oh-so-helpful person who told me I was a good writer but they just couldn't read the plot I was writing and advised me to stop wasting my talent) and they've always upset me for hours.

Honestly, on a normal day it would bother me like crazy.  But it came on the heels of a bunch of far nicer reviews so I could brush it off a lot easier...
And I fully expected to get a lot of flack for my last chapter, so I was kind of mentally prepared. 

[Miri1984]

I wanted to punch the Mary Suism person. I think people have weird definitions of it, to be honest, because I always took it to mean a bland character that doesn't have any distinguishing characteristics who acts predictably, or without proper motivations.



None of those things apply to Maggie at all.

[LupusYondergirl]

I always take it to mean a character everyone else in the fic loves who can do no wrong. Like, wildly artificially perfect.

[Sarah1281]

Miri1984 wrote...

I wanted to punch the Mary Suism person. I think people have weird definitions of it, to be honest, because I always took it to mean a bland character that doesn't have any distinguishing characteristics who acts predictably, or without proper motivations.

None of those things apply to Maggie at all.

I tend to go with the TV Tropes definition. The problem is, there are just so many ways that someone can be a Mary Sue and people disagree on what counts as one. If a canon character acts like someone who, in fiction, would be a Mary Sue then should that count? Some think so, others disagree. A self-insert would be a Mary Sue, an OC who everyone instantly falls in love with (particuarly if they're not interested in the Mary Sue's gender normally) would be one, someone who is overpowered would often be one (not having seen the review but hearing Lupus talk about Maggie that might be where the accusation comes in but I know that Awakening overpowers any mage who is even remotely decently specced and she makes sure to give Maggie weaknesses and limitations to counter this), someone who is mysteriously related to a main character and who the story revolves around, someone with no flaws, someone who is never held accountable for their own actions...it varies.

[DragonRacer13]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

I always take it to mean a character everyone else in the fic loves who can do no wrong. Like, wildly artificially perfect.

That's always been my general impression of the definition, too... like a Barbie character, essentially: everyone loves her and she can do no wrong.

Honestly, though, some people are just crazy with accusations. Sometimes, I think people call ANY original character found in fanfiction a Mary Sue, like a knee-jerk reaction. Odd, that.

[Addai]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

The books did make me like Loghain more, but it was probably because I came away from them really disliking Maric.

How can anyone dislike Maric?  Does not compute.    Just kidding.

Although I admit, I went into them disliking Maric what feels to me like his absolute indifference to how mistreated Alistair was as a child. (although I never got the line about him being dead long ago when the timeline says Maric died just five years before the game is set).

And speaking of TST, this was linked on peopleofthedas yesterday. I thought it was funny. The Stolen Throne in 15 minutes

It's my bias, but I don't think he was indifferent to Alistair at all.  There is a clue, I think, in what he says about Cailan in TC- that he believes Cailan is better off without him.  As for Alistair's line, I like to think of that as his bitterness talking- "he was dead to me even before my mother."  But I'm emo that way.

I refuse to read that 15 minutes even though the portions I've seen are funny.  But if I start thinking about tropes and cliches, I'd never type another word of fiction.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...
I refuse to read that 15 minutes even though the portions I've seen are funny.  But if I start thinking about tropes and cliches, I'd never type another word of fiction.

 Or you could just be inspired to take up parody.

[LupusYondergirl]

I refuse to read that 15 minutes even though the portions I've seen are funny. But if I start thinking about tropes and cliches, I'd never type another word of fiction.

Yes... but...

DEEP ROADS: We bring the sexytimes like nothing else in the DAO canon!

SO TRUE!
Seriously, I loved writing deep roads smut. Something about it is so reckless and in-the-moment.

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 12 octobre 2010 - 11:23 .

[nefand]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Well if he didn't know about the letter then he had no reason to believe she was genuinely redeemed, did he? And if Maric had already spent so much time defending her and then people found out that his paragon of virtue was actually an Orlesian bard who had wiped out half the army and only got involved to kidnap Maric and was then asked to KILL him...yeah, that would not have gone over well. And since Katriel wouldn't even kill her employer (bardic honor? Seriously?) then there's every chance that information would have gotten out.

The bardic honor thing is overhyped, I think.

I wouldn't be so nitpicky about this subject except that it's not like we're dealing with an Orwellian novel here, with lots of themes that are open to interpretation.  Both TST and The Calling are simplistic, straight forward books without much substance or depth to them that spell things out rather plainly, IMO, and don't leave much room for variant interpretations beyond what Gaider presented in the material.

In TST ch 16 pg 347, Katriel tells Severan that "bardic honor" became moot because he changed the terms of their original contract based on his actions at West Hill.

Severan:  "And what about our contract?  I was led to believe you bards held your honor above all else."

Katriel: "Let us assume for the moment that our contract was not canceled the moment you changed the plan at West Hill... I would need to remind you that... was to deliver Prince Maric to you, alive. Nothing more, nothing less."

She goes on to refuse to renegotiate the terms of the original contract, and leaves Severan in an incapicated state with a one-time warning that he should leave or else he will die.  Her reason for not killing him then IS attributed to the code of bardic interactions... which I'll grant you, is sort of crap considering she could have taken his head back to Loghain and Maric as a gifty and avoided all sorts of senseless drama.

But then we would have lacked the appropriate plot device to transform Loghain into the scheming bastard and Maric into the bitter king.

Chapter 17, after Maric kills Katriel, Loghain confesses why he and his father had been on the run at the beginning of the book... blah blah, mother raped and killed, and how this is all justice.  His father had gone back and killed the Orlesian commander who killed his mother, it was justice; and now what Maric had done to Katriel was justice too.  Loghain basically states that treachery demands blood justice (p 363) and that's how it has to be in order to win a war.

Loghain then goes to Rowan and admits that while he told Maric about Katriel's role at West Hill, he withheld other details that proved she had turned on Severan, information which probably would have stayed Maric's hand; Rowan is shocked and horrified by this.  Loghain then forces the end game on Rowan (p 365):

"Either Maric wallows in self-pity and is no use to anybody or he realizes that being a king and being a man are not always the same thing."

Details about the contents of Katriel's letter are on p 393 for ppl interested, wherein the reader is told Katriel knew all along what her fate would be and Maric forgives her for her actions.

[Addai]

@nefand, I am not sure what your point is? That you don't like the Katriel story line? I believe she does consider that she should kill Severan and be done with it, but maybe she has reached a point where even one more murder is too much.

[Gilgamesh1138]

Okay, I miss you all so much. And I figured out why I cannot get on to BSN at work...they blocked it the sodding bastards!  I hate RL sometimes. UGH!

*HUGS*

[jackkel dragon]

Gilgamesh1138 wrote...

Okay, I miss you all so much. And I figured out why I cannot get on to BSN at work...they blocked it the sodding bastards!  I hate RL sometimes. UGH!

*HUGS*

Well that sucks. At least you're here now. *hug*

[nefand]

Addai67 wrote...
@nefand, I am not sure what your point is? That you don't like the Katriel story line? I believe she does consider that she should kill Severan and be done with it, but maybe she has reached a point where even one more murder is too much.

*blinks slowly*

No....

My point is, this material isn't Animal Farm.  It doesn't require a lot of interpretation or character analysis, because it's WYSISWYG.  To even state that Katriel let Severan live because 'one more murder is too much' is overanalyzing what's presented in black and white right on the page.

It's my overhyped argument to precisely counter any overhyped arguments at in-depth analysis of material that doesn't require any in-depth analysis.  See? 

I'm tricksy like that.

And I actually have drawn on the parallels between Maric & Katriel into my FF for an Alistair/Tabris story with a Loghain Redeemer ending, so I would have to say I'm in a Katriel fan club of sorts as I have found some fun to be had with the material in a FF medium... provided that you can accept the material for what it is.

[Miri1984]

Huh, reading through the TV Tropes definition of Mary Suism was kind of educational.



Not to be Twilight obsessive, (in an ANTI way) but it's so clear that Bella is Mary Sue according to this. I mean she has NO REDEEMING QUALITIES, yet EVERYONE LOVES HER.



Sarah, I looooove your Angelique even more now - she's such a perfect vessel for parody. I think I might be inexplicably in love with her.

[Sarah1281]

Miri1984 wrote...

Huh, reading through the TV Tropes definition of Mary Suism was kind of educational.

Not to be Twilight obsessive, (in an ANTI way) but it's so clear that Bella is Mary Sue according to this. I mean she has NO REDEEMING QUALITIES, yet EVERYONE LOVES HER.

Sarah, I looooove your Angelique even more now - she's such a perfect vessel for parody. I think I might be inexplicably in love with her.

Glad to be of help.

And that's sweet.
 
Also, just what I needed after receiving a review literally two miutes ago telling me that one of my parody stories was "Errrr... it's okay. Not good, not bad, just okay. It's mostly just kind of bland. It's just not realistic. I know, it's a parody, but I don't see the humor to be honest."

[Reika]

Sarah1281 wrote...


Also, just what I needed after receiving a review literally two miutes ago telling me that one of my parody stories was "Errrr... it's okay. Not good, not bad, just okay. It's mostly just kind of bland. It's just not realistic. I know, it's a parody, but I don't see the humor to be honest."

*hugs* I'm not one for parady (my non-existant sense of humor), but what I have read of your stuff has been amusing. Even to me.

[mousestalker]

Deleted for being overly narcissistic.

Modifié par mousestalker, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:32 .

[Sarah1281]

Reika wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...


Also, just what I needed after receiving a review literally two miutes ago telling me that one of my parody stories was "Errrr... it's okay. Not good, not bad, just okay. It's mostly just kind of bland. It's just not realistic. I know, it's a parody, but I don't see the humor to be honest."

*hugs* I'm not one for parady (my non-existant sense of humor), but what I have read of your stuff has been amusing. Even to me.

Thanks.

[Reika]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Reika wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...


Also, just what I needed after receiving a review literally two miutes ago telling me that one of my parody stories was "Errrr... it's okay. Not good, not bad, just okay. It's mostly just kind of bland. It's just not realistic. I know, it's a parody, but I don't see the humor to be honest."

*hugs* I'm not one for parady (my non-existant sense of humor), but what I have read of your stuff has been amusing. Even to me.

Thanks.

You're welcome. I've been waiting to get shredded myself. Thus far people have either liked it or ignored it.

[sabreene]

Reika wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Reika wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...


Also, just what I needed after receiving a review literally two miutes ago telling me that one of my parody stories was "Errrr... it's okay. Not good, not bad, just okay. It's mostly just kind of bland. It's just not realistic. I know, it's a parody, but I don't see the humor to be honest."

*hugs* I'm not one for parady (my non-existant sense of humor), but what I have read of your stuff has been amusing. Even to me.

Thanks.

You're welcome. I've been waiting to get shredded myself. Thus far people have either liked it or ignored it.

I'm in the same boat. I'm happy I haven't gotten any negative reviews, but I think it's because I don't have many reviews in general. Which is actually just fine with me -- I don't know how I'd respond to being torn apart. Go cry in my room probably

Someone rated my story thread five stars last night and I was all Woo-HOOO! And then tonight it was down to four stars, and now I have this fear it's going to go down a star every day until I have to run away and hang my head in shame.

@Sarah -- I haven't read your Aunn story yet, but I love Angelique! And the prompt fills you've done with her have been hilarious!

[Addai]

A lot of story threads get downgraded to four stars. Either someone is a git, or people are accidentally clicking on the stars instead of the page number.