10369 réponses à ce sujet

[Raonar]

The other one, his listener, but you don;t really need to say "he sad/told/answered", you can use impersonal (if this is not the appropriate term, feel free to smack me virtually-at work AND sleepy right now) constructions too, as long as the context makes it clear who is speaking to whom.

"The deep voice responded"

"was the whispered answer"

"a gaze of uncertainty accompanied the shaky voice as the words came one after another, as though they were dragging each other along"

etc.

Modifié par Raonar, 19 octobre 2010 - 09:04 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Miri1984 wrote...

Anyone else have trouble doing dialogue with two people from the same sex? I'm going crazy thinking of things to call people other than "he" or "she". "The assassin" "the warden" "the elf" "the templar" "the mangy git" GAH.

I don't know if this helps you any, but...

If it's a true dialogue, as in just *two* people talking, you don't have to mention who's who every single line. People should be able to assume who's who if there are only two people in a conversation, even three can be manageable if you know how.

Take Leliana and Wynne. Both are human and female. You can distinguish them with 'bard' and 'mage', 'Orlesian' and 'Ferelden', you can use the colour of their hair, the fact one's young and one's old, comment on Lel fiddling with her bow or Wynne with her staff etc. But if it's just the two of them talking then you don't *need* a lot of this for readers to know who's saying what because it's a dialogue--they take turns talking, how dialogue is structured in stories should make it easy to tell when one stops talking and the other starts, and as the writer you should only need to throw them a bone every few lines to help them keep track.

Specifying or describing who's saying what for every single line in a dialogue is unecessary, and for some it can disrupt flow. Speech comes naturally, and speech between two people when nothing else is going on around them should be the easiest type of dialogue to write and read.

eg. *cheating with an actual game dialogue, because I'm feeling lazy...*

-----------
Wynne looked at Leliana thoughtfully. "It is sometimes so hard to believe that you have been through so much, at such a young age."

"I think I look younger than I am," the bard replied with a smile.

"Yes... yes, that is possible. When I was your age I was just about ready to take on my first apprentice. In hindsight, perhaps I should have waited a few more years. I was arrogant, my confidence bolstered by my youth."

"It is so hard to imagine, seeing you now."

Wynne chuckled. "Oh, I've had some two decades or so to grow mellow. Believe me, back then I was quite... prickly."

"So you are like a fine wine, yes? Losing the raw edges over time?"

"I suppose there is some truth to that analogy, but dear Maker, I do hate being compared to wine. Or cheese." Wynne paused a second, then nodded in a definite fashion."Especially cheese."

--------
Note how Leliana's name only appears once, right at the start, and she is only defined as a speaker once, also near the start. That is also the only time 'said' (or 'replied', rather) is used, every other time there are small actions by Wynne, if there is anything, to put some action and natural pauses between words.

But the main point is...can you tell who's talking without being told all the time?

Don't fall into the trap of having to name/describe the speaker at every turn, or, for people like me at least, it gets distracting to the point that you notice how many variations are being used and start to wonder if there *are* so many for the sheer sake of variation. Same with the dreaded synonyms of 'said'. Variations are good, don't get me wrong! But go overboard and readers will start to wonder if you're trying to use every option in the thesaurus.

...and now that I've finished sounding like I know it all...

*jumps off soapbox and goes back to lurking*

[Maria13]

Or the reader is aware one character is familiar with something, like Orzammar, and the other isn't:


“Orzammar now keeps general Ferelden time, so it’s around midnight here too,” Alistair informed him, “It’s good for trade with the outside.  More traditional dwarva say it’s the beginning of the end for the dwarven kingdoms,
mind… Can’t say they’re not wrong…”

“Why?”

“Well, you’re a sun bereft civilization, with the disadvantages and the advantages that that might entail, and suddenly you start adopting sun time? THE END, I say.”

“But isn’t that good for us? That they’re adapting to our trading patterns?”

Alistair shook his head, “Good for us in the short term, bad for them in the short term.  In the long term might
well be bad for them and bad for us… I mean, no Orzammar? If it didn’t exist someone would have to invent it…”

“I doubt it will come to that…”


“Well, let’s hope not. Perhaps I’m exaggerating, but you should see some of those abandoned Thaigs… This way.”

Crashes through soap box because head gets too big...   OW!!!

Modifié par Maria13, 19 octobre 2010 - 11:21 .

[soignee]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Don't fall into the trap of having to name/describe the speaker at every turn, or, for people like me at least, it gets distracting to the point that you notice how many variations are being used and start to wonder if there *are* so many for the sheer sake of variation. Same with the dreaded synonyms of 'said'. Variations are good, don't get me wrong! But go overboard and readers will start to wonder if you're trying to use every option in the thesaurus.

It's hard when there's more then two people in a group speaking though. I fall into this trap a lot due to my apparent fondness for LOTS OF PEOPLE in one scene, and you end up something like this:

There was a fight, there always was. They stopped and looked at each other a moment, letting it all sink in slowly.

"I'm stating the obvious," Alistair muttered, shakily setting his shield to right again. "Snarkily of course."

"Ah, I will not agree with your statement," Zevran murmured. "And say something to misdirect my true opinion, obviously." 

Missa leant against the wall, Wynne's cooling hands searching for injuries on her bare arm. "I'm going to say something short and blunt," she replied, watching the mage work on her wounds. "It's in character."

Alistair shrugged. "And I'll respond vaguely, I don't know. Probably?" Was his only answer, to the disgust of Sten.

"Look everyone," Missa replied. "Convenient darkspawn to kill and speed up the plot. Let's go." Before she knew what she was doing, Missa ran, throwing herself into the fray with with glee.

"Wait for us, mon dieu--" Leliana started to say, as startled as her, watching the shorter woman seemingly disappear from them, daggers already out.

"Fools, all of you!" Muttered Morrigan, watching the fight unfold clumsily. Magic balled into her hands in a glow of light and she followed, anger setting her face into a scowl.

Aaaaaaaaand so on. It's hard to juggle so many voices and it not sound condescending to the reader, but at the same time not confuse them. I'm still not sure if I need that many people speaking, but it's how it is in my head and I write it so. What do you all think, when is too many people in a scene too many?

I'm still learning, I'm just a fanficcing hack. =/

Modifié par soignee, 19 octobre 2010 - 02:17 .

[Raonar]

I am on the verge of writing a campfire scene with ELEVEN PEOPLE so I would be horrified if I could feel fear. And there are two mabari war hounds too...



sigh

[Sarah1281]

Raonar wrote...

I am on the verge of writing a campfire scene with ELEVEN PEOPLE so I would be horrified if I could feel fear. And there are two mabari war hounds too...

sigh

If you could feel fear? 

[Maria13]

Well, at least we'll be able to tell the mabaris from their barking/growling...

[Raonar]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Raonar wrote...

I am on the verge of writing a campfire scene with ELEVEN PEOPLE so I would be horrified if I could feel fear. And there are two mabari war hounds too...

sigh

If you could feel fear? 

Yeah, if. Once you realize how unproductive fear is at a deeply intellectual level, you get scared really, really hard, if at all.

[soignee]

Raonar wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Raonar wrote...

I am on the verge of writing a campfire scene with ELEVEN PEOPLE so I would be horrified if I could feel fear. And there are two mabari war hounds too...

sigh

If you could feel fear? 

Yeah, if. Once you realize how unproductive fear is at a deeply intellectual level, you get scared really, really hard, if at all.

Great idea in theory. In practise however, an entirely different creature.

In theory: WHY YES I WILL KNOW WHAT TO DO WHEN THERE IS A ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE. I'VE PLAYED LEFT FOR DEAD.
In practise: IDK WHAT THE **** MAN IT'S A ZOMBIE NOT SEEN ONE BEFORE

In other words: you do not know how you will react in situations you've never done before, especially when there is high stress and a chance of severe trauma.  I mean, I'd love to think that if I experience a [generic traumatic experience I have been lucky enough not to endure inserted here] situation, I will be calm, collected and/or remember my first aid training if required, and not fall to pieces.

The reality is, I don't know how I will react to them, as you can only plan so much and armchair theory "what you would do" to a certain point. The human body does have a remarkable defence mechanism in place, and you will react in surprising, seemingly illogical ways to counter whatever danger your survival instinct is currently trying to get you out of, however. So fear can kick start the basic human need of "i don't wanna die" beautifully, and fuel the adrenaline. 

Modifié par soignee, 19 octobre 2010 - 08:10 .

[Miri1984]

Thanks for the advice re conversations. I don't tend to bother with "he said, she said" when there are only two people in the room, but once you put three or more in there it gets annoying. At least for me.



As for the fear thing? There are so many different types of fear. I don't think anyone has ever experienced them all. The visceral "I'm going to die" fight or flight response is not something you can control, IMO.

[Sarah1281]

That's why I don't watch scary movies. I saw The Strangers the week after it came out and I STILL get freaked out at night when I go into the hallway that someone with that stupid mask on will come from around the corner to kill me. IMAGINATION ISN'T ALWAYS A GOOD THING.

[Sarah1281]

So, speaking of the thread title...my choice in my most recent chapter of my story means that now whenever talking about Harrowmont and Bhelen comes up at all, my opinion - which certain people already clearly didn't respect - will now completely dismiss and I'll be called a hypocrite because as we all know, every decision our Wardens make are the ones we absolutely stand by and would do if we were in their shoes even if we have multiple stories where the Wardens make opposite choices.

And for that matter, we're not allowed to change our minds, either, so if we said something months and months ago then it can be used against us at any time and we'll be called hypocrites for having a different opinion now.

[Sandtigress]

Then you say to them "I do not think that word means what you think it means" and ignore them afterwards. :-P

[Miri1984]

Sandtigress wrote...

Then you say to them "I do not think that word means what you think it means" and ignore them afterwards. :-P

*standing ovation*

INCONCEIVABLE!! 

Seriously, Sarah, point them my way and I'll punch them for you.

[Sarah1281]

I suppose I should take comfort in the fact it's just one person constantly trolling me instead of many people who hate my things. It just comes up at the most random times.



EX: "Yes, so this is why Loghain is a great general who did what he had to do in the game. BTW, Sarah you're a naive hypocrite and your story sucks." "So that chapter was really excellent, X. BTW, Sarah, I still hate your story and want to kill your main character." "There's lots of evidence that Bhelen will make a good ruler in game. BTW, Sarah..." When will it end?!?!

[LupusYondergirl]

So... In other words his own story is such a self-insert that he can't even fathom someone actually writing, oh, say... actual fiction? Since assuming someone would only have their protagonist do what they would do pretty much goes against the very definition of "fictional character" and sends it into the realm of personal fantasy wish fulfillment. (also. New Vegas is awesome. Unrelated but I wanted to share. )

[Miri1984]

ACK NEW VEGAS?? Why did I bother downloading ME and breaking my PC?? WHY? NOOO!

[Merilsell]

soignee wrote...
Aaaaaaaaand so on. It's hard to juggle so many voices and it not sound condescending to the reader, but at the same time not confuse them. I'm still not sure if I need that many people speaking, but it's how it is in my head and I write it so. What do you all think, when is too many people in a scene too many?

I'm still learning, I'm just a fanficcing hack. =/

Same here. I'm currently in the Deep Roads with seven people and I'm really glad when I'm able to focus on only three or four people doing...stuff. But then again I seize a lot of my dialogue for character/relationship development, which means it involves a lot of body language and so on. .I try to reduce the he/she said things to a needed minimum but mostly end up describing it in another way. Sigh. Wordy is my middle name, it seems. 

BTW there is one thing I'm relative uncreative right now and this concerns the travel food. What does one eat down there in the Deep Roads, except for beefy sticks? Anyone knows/ ideas? Bleargh.

@Sarah: Someone I know got a negative comment on her story, which ended with a back and forth with the person and a writers block. She then blocked the reviewer and is happy with that....because it's not worth the trouble. It only brings you down in the long run, so put on your ignore suit 

[jackkel dragon]

LupusYondergirl wrote...
(New Vegas is awesome. Unrelated but I wanted to share. )

I just spent 2 hours in the Mojave. Got killed by bees bigger than me.

I got back at them by breaking down all my equipment and making ammo for my favorite weapon, and chased them all to their deaths.

I wonder if I can adapt this to my FF? Minus the dying, of course.

[Sarah1281]

BTW there is one thing I'm relative uncreative right now and this concerns the travel food. What does one eat down there in the Deep Roads, except for beefy sticks? Anyone knows/ ideas? Bleargh.

Nugs are found in the Deep Roads. So are Deep Mushrooms but I believe you have to be careful with the harvesting and preparation of those (well, if you're not a Warden I guess) because they can be tainted.

[Merilsell]

Hmm yeah, good point, but would it be edible at all? Due to corruption and so? I mean I have my chars drinking water from dwoemer enchanted flasks only, already. Those refill automatically/ never runs dry. Because, well the water down there is kind of equal with poison, I think. (Hey the flask or better said water basin is DG canon from the Calling, so yeah. It would also explain where Oghren gets so much booze xD)

I rather meant travel food one can take with for the Deep Road trip. There has to be more than just beefy sticks, though. Right? RIGHT?

Modifié par Merilsell, 20 octobre 2010 - 05:18 .

[Sarah1281]

Ah, I see. Anyway, Deep Mushrooms are apparently used in flavoring but just picking them and eating them as you go would be a really bad idea.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

soignee wrote...


It's hard when there's more then two people in a group speaking though. I fall into this trap a lot due to my apparent fondness for LOTS OF PEOPLE in one scene,

Oh, I won't argue that it gets harder the more people in the conversation. I heartily agree, in fact. The question I was answering seemed to be aimed at dealing with two people of the same gender, hence my reply.

soignee wrote...
It's hard to juggle so many voices and it not sound condescending to the reader, but at the same time not confuse them. I'm still not sure if I need that many people speaking, but it's how it is in my head and I write it so. What do you all think, when is too many people in a scene too many?

I'm still learning, I'm just a fanficcing hack. =/

I don't see anything wrong with how you did it up there, to be honest. Do you *need* that many people speaking? Pft, no, but *real* conversations have interruptions and people talking over each other etc and these would be next to impossible to duplicate in text form. We do what we can with our pens/keyboards, so if it works for you then do it.

Raonar wrote...

I am on the verge of writing a campfire scene with ELEVEN PEOPLE so I would be horrified if I could feel fear. And there are two mabari war hounds too...

Good luck.

Merilsell wrote...

BTW there is one thing I'm relative uncreative right now and this concerns the travel food. What does one eat down there in the Deep Roads, except for beefy sticks? Anyone knows/ ideas? Bleargh.

Dried fruit, hardtack (essentially trail bread/hard biscuits), salted meat, grains (oats and rice - can be boiled/steamed easily), some hard cheeses can keep for a while, as can some root vegetables like potatos, bacon also travels well. Storing food in well-sealed oilcloth is wise, since if any of it gets wet it will rot or start growing.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ah, I see. Anyway, Deep Mushrooms are apparently used in flavoring but just picking them and eating them as you go would be a really bad idea.

Not necessarily/always. You could pick them up and eat them in game (and yay, stamina boost if you care for mechanics). The item description says:

"Fungi found underground in close proximity to lyrium veins. In addition to their restorative properties, they can also be made into poisons."

If Deep Mushrooms absorbed taint really easily, you'd never risk buying them from Ruck (a ghoul and frequent darkspawn cannibal).

[Maria13]

Moss porridge??? I wrote about this yesterday only to find it really exists... Although in a slightly different form, salt fish can keep for aeons too, salt beef...

[Maria13]

Multihand convos, I tend to find that where there's more than three or four people they tend to divvy up into smaller subgroups anyway. It's just not possible to have a conversation with a person at the other end of the table unless you get up and walk over to them...