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[Addai]

Merilsell wrote...

What I want for Christmas or earlier, is a regular reviewer. Aww, I never have regular reviews, just always new people popping in and giving feedback, but never again after the one time. Not that I complain about them doing that, mind you, but it would be awesome to have a person doing that well...more regularly.

Pleeeaaase Santa? xD 

I've only experienced that with my latest so I didn't even know people did that.  It's very nice, though I have to say it adds some pressure.

I want to finish writing so I actually have time to read more. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

So, here's a question. Just how primitive do all of you mentally picture Ferelden? Thinking of it since I'm watching The Lion in Winter now and it matches up so much with my mental image of what their castles look like, I'm realizing I must have had it in mind when I started writing.
Dogs everywhere, straw on the ground, animal skins on the floors and beds.

I don't know... in the game it just seems so... nice for a country everyone calls barbaric, I figure it's probably a lot rougher around the edges than that. And I'm wondering if the fact that I do write it as being a lot more primitive than it looks in game would make it AU.

I think the barbaric comments are more due to manners and way of life being less 'refined' than other countries. Ferelden is mostly known for Andraste's barbarian horde going against the Imperium, and then as rabble rousers going against Orlais. It doesn't make the country out as being particularly sophisticated, and I get the feeling that maybe the barbarism is romanticised or equated with 'warlike'.

I doubt you'll find many castles that *aren't* draughty.

FutileSine wrote...

Isn't there one city that uses mages to light its lamplights?  One of the things that may be holding Ferelden back is its fears of mages - I imagine the great houses/nobles in other countries will have had runes made for them by their mages circle - things that could make their lives easier.  I have yet to hear of a rune being used for warmth, or for perpetual water, for instance.  The ability to make their lives a little bit better is there - Ferelden just doesn't make use of it.  Primitive.

Tevinter Imperium does the mage lamp-lighter thing, but mages are treated differently up there. Ferelden isn't the only nation who puts their mages in a tower and has them guarded by Templars.

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

LupusYondergirl wrote...

I don't know... in the game it just seems so... nice for a country everyone calls barbaric, I figure it's probably a lot rougher around the edges than that. And I'm wondering if the fact that I do write it as being a lot more primitive than it looks in game would make it AU.

I picture it as similar to Roman Britain, where there are in fact vestiges of higher civilization but they are not uniform.  So you have the nice bathtubs, and probably old sanitation and water systems in the major cities, but the outlying countryside gets rough fast.  Only in the alienage do you see what are probably open sewers.

They were held by the Imperium and for 70 years by Orlais, which means the nobility would be used to a decent standard.  Duncan has some good description of the palace at the beginning of TC.  It's probably dirtier and darker than in the game, but he's still impressed by it.  Not that a street kid would have seen grand palaces.

The description "barbaric" came from Celene and she is making a point not to underrate them.  She could be speaking politically though since people talk about Ferelden smelling bad (like "wet dog") it's obviously not up to Orlesian sensibilities.

I do think of the nobility of Ferelden as being less "cultured" than the Orlesians.  I'm visualizing Orlais as being more cosmopolitan, with more abundant imported goods...so the wealthy Orlesians eat more elaborately prepared and seasoned food, dress in more silk and linen and less wool.  I also visualize it as more of a frontier sort of environment with more monsters and the Chasind on the border, so that nobles live in castles to protect their holdings, whereas I visualize the Orlesian nobles being inclined to live in palaces in Val Royeaux much of the year.  I think of Orlais (maybe because of Leliana) as having more music and theatre, as well, in general a stronger market for luxuries and entertainment, though I also visualize it has having starker contrasts of rich and poor.  I guess I'm pushing a more renaissance view of Orlais from a lifestyle point of view, while viewing Ferelden as staunchly medieval.

It does seem as though even Ferelden has much higher levels of literacy than our middle ages did.  I speculate that the destruction of the Tevinter Imperium didn't demolish its infrastructure to quite as great an extent as the fall of the Roman Empire in the west did, though (as a frontier province), Ferelden would never have had as strong an imprint of the Imperium.

[Addai]

I recall reading something about the Norman invasion, that the Norman men who married Anglo-Saxon women had to teach them how to bathe up to their standards etc. I imagine that leaves a lasting impression even if habits changed. Cultural prejudices run deep.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Literacy is something that's ignored in games, IMO, or taken for granted for the sake of ease-of-play. Books would have been luxury items for the most part, as it takes a long time to copy books without a printing press.

In the real world, Christianity did a lot for education and teaching children to read, so maybe the Chantry serves a similar function in Thedas for those who aren't in a position to be apprenticed to a tradesman or squired to a noble.

For this reason, I have a hard time imagining the Dalish Warden being able to read...unless we're supposed to go on the basis that the elves write all their stories in the King's Tongue, or happen to collect shemlen texts, and your PC happens to have been interested in reading such things. (OTOH, I understand Witch Hunt had a Dalish book that the Dalish couldn't even read, so...whatever?)

The City Elf could have attended the Chantry, or at least books would be more readily available in Denerim, but I'm unsure about the Dwarf Commoner origin. Of course, I'm unsure of a lot of Orzammar, since nothing (or little?) appears to be in the dwarven language. Another case of ease-of-play over logic, maybe. A pity you couldn't do a quest to learn some basic dwarven language, or use Oghren as a decoder ring. >.>

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 25 octobre 2010 - 06:34 .

[FutileSine]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Of course, I'm unsure of a lot of Orzammar, since nothing (or little?) appears to be in the dwarven language. Another case of ease-of-play over logic, maybe. A pity you couldn't do a quest to learn some basic dwarven language, or use Oghren as a decoder ring. >.>

This actually highlights a point I've been wondering about - what language do the dwarves speak/write in?  In TSC it talks about how their language is gutteral, and decidedly foreign - and when Nalthur speaks to Maric it is with a thick accent....so King's Tongue can't be incredibly common down there (unless King Endrin was more a reformer than I realized), or at least isn't their mother tongue.  BUT when you get down there in the game, EVERYBODY knows the Kings Tongue, even if they do speak it with an American accent...but the fact that they speak with an accent at all means that their mother tongue is something different!    I can't wrap my mind around the logic of why the Shaperate would be keeping its records written in King's Tongue?   Like you said - I think it was just an instance of going for ease of play over what should logically be spoken down there.  

I read in the wiki that the dwarven accent was originally suppose to be German....and I think I am going to go that route in my own FF unless someone (Sarah? ) could provide a good reason why so many dwarves speak and write in King's Tongue.

On a side note, while reading TSC the sentence that threw my mind for a loop was Nathur's "Who do you think taught it to you surfacers" quip when...Maric, I think, asks if anyone knows King's Tongue.  Were they getting at the idea that Dwarven and King's Tongue are similar?


Oh, and just a side comment on why the Dalish warrior might not be able to read Dalish - I know a lot of people who were raised up speaking the language of their parents (Arabic, Korean, what-have-you) but never learned to actually READ the language.  I imagine that the same would go for the Dalish - that original text written in elvish would be hard to find.  Some, like the Keepers, may be able to- but why would a warrior need to learn how to read Elvish?  Besides, I always thought that perhaps the language the Dalish speak is different from what the original Elves spoke - their time in slavery would have made remembering Elven difficult, and though they could have remembered bits and pieces of it- would they have known enough to remake their full language?  Languages grow over time (Like...I have a difficult time reading texts from several hundred years ago even though it is still technically English).  Pure speculation on my part though.

But speculation is fun.  I eagerly wait for someone smarter than myself to refute my points:D

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Corrupted/bastardised elvish, you mean? That's plausible, considering Arlathan was conquered over a thousand years ago, and good point about the spoken/written word too. You're quite right.



As for the dwarves, perhaps we're meant to assume we only see/speak to those who can understand us? XD You've thrown a bit of a curve withat that quote of Nathur's though...what's THAT about? o_O



(btw, I noticed you're a fan of The Guild (or at least that Avatar song)! Have you seen the more recent music vid they did, Game On!?)

[FutileSine]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


(btw, I noticed you're a fan of The Guild (or at least that Avatar song)! Have you seen the more recent music vid they did, Game On!?)

I love that video too!  As a female gamer who has insecurity issues with the fact that I game (much less write FF about it!), it really strikes a chord with me.    I've watched a couple of episodes of their season one...at some point I really have to watch more of "The Guild"...

[soignee]

I hate game mechanics and ignore them. >.>



I put in that dwarves have their own written language. I also find it hard to believe that an entire language would disappear thanks to the Shaperate, also.



I wrote that Missa can read and write (albeit it slowly) due to both her sister and that I came up with a lulzy backstory that I haven't written in yet that explains it further.



The Chantry teaching children to read/write will actually change society hugely, rather the way Victorian society was changed when schools and education became mandatory, so I'm unsure if it's like that in Ferelden. Under Anora's rule, perhaps. She seems big on education.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I wouldn't think the Chantry provided a majorly academic form of education, but Alistair at least says he was 'schooled in a Chantry' and Zevran too says he 'went to the Chantry as a child' when explaining his basic knowledge of history/religious propaganda. I'm thinking kids who went to church might have been taught basic reading and maths skills, as well as religious education, but anything more? You'd need a formal education, and probably money.



I think one of the endgames has plans being conceived for a university, which makes it sound like Ferelden doesn't have one. Adds to the barbaric theme, I guess.

[Corker]

Not only can the Dalish not read the elven book, a human mage can. At least a little. And Morrigan apparently could as well.

Re: tech levels... ohmygoodness, I just give up, honestly. Orlais with its elaborate wigs and all sounds like the court of Louis XV (1700s); Antiva sounds like Renaissance Italy circa 1500 or so; Ferelden looks like well-developed English feudalism at 1200ish. Forget all the books - how about all the glazed windows? But yes, no university in Ferelden, when proto-Oxford was forming in the 1000s. Time-traveling armor and weapon styles. It's... just... Standard High Fantasy Window Dressing 101, now with More Dogs. Trying to actually tie it to an historical reality is an exercise in frustration. My advice is not to.

Modifié par Corker, 25 octobre 2010 - 12:06 .

[Sarah1281]

The City Elf could have attended the Chantry, or at least books would be more readily available in Denerim, but I'm unsure about the Dwarf Commoner origin.

The DC, I believe, was taught how to read by Rica who learned as part of her noble-hunter training but that doesn't explain why it seems to be the same language Fereldens read. Or why that codex from Celene to her ambassador was in Ferelden. For the dwarves some of it might be merchants keeping up with surface languages for trade purposes but the city as a whole seem far too interested in isolation for the rest of them to be big on it. I suppose they COULD have been taught both but the question is if they would have bothered. Maybe the DN because being that high up meant possibly having to deal with surface correspondence and messages but would an ability to read and write two different languages be that important for noble-hunters?

[LupusYondergirl]

In game a few characters remark that Ferelden speaks the "common tongue."

In fic I explained that as they used to have a unique language, but it's long since died out as anything but people/place names and historical record, so now they basically use the international trade tongue as their local language. That could be why it seems like the whole world speaks the same language as them.

[DreGregoire]

FutileSine wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


(btw, I noticed you're a fan of The Guild (or at least that Avatar song)! Have you seen the more recent music vid they did, Game On!?)

I love that video too!  As a female gamer who has insecurity issues with the fact that I game (much less write FF about it!), it really strikes a chord with me.    I've watched a couple of episodes of their season one...at some point I really have to watch more of "The Guild"...

[Addai]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
For this reason, I have a hard time imagining the Dalish Warden being able to read...unless we're supposed to go on the basis that the elves write all their stories in the King's Tongue, or happen to collect shemlen texts, and your PC happens to have been interested in reading such things. (OTOH, I understand Witch Hunt had a Dalish book that the Dalish couldn't even read, so...whatever?)

The Dalish, however, highly value education, at least for their line of keepers.  That is part of their code, after all, that they are the keepers of the lore.  While that is probably mostly oral history, I can't imagine that at least the keepers did not know how to read.  The Warden being child of a keeper, I would think it plausible that he/she could read and also know the king's tongue.  You could play it different ways, of course.

Beyond the keepers, I would guess literacy was uncommon among the Dalish because of access to books and a higher value on practical survival.

The book in the Witch Hunt is ancient elvish, which exists only in a mashed version.  I liken it to how people needed to re-create Hebrew in the diaspora.  Hebrew as a sacred written language was lost in the destruction of the Temple, surviving in bastardized dialect forms.  Scholars in Alexandria whose first language was Greek had to piece together the ancient version and re-codify it.  That takes a lot of work and resources that the Dalish wouldn't have, so they are trying to piece together something based largely on collective memory with few written records.

[maxernst]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

In game a few characters remark that Ferelden speaks the "common tongue."
In fic I explained that as they used to have a unique language, but it's long since died out as anything but people/place names and historical record, so now they basically use the international trade tongue as their local language. That could be why it seems like the whole world speaks the same language as them.

Ouch, I'd not noticed that...I have that totally screwed up in my fic, because I assumed (based on the accent) that Orlesian was a foreign tongue.  After all, so many names in orlais (Val Foret, Val Royeaux) are basically french translations of the "common tongue".  I was thinking about having Alistair and Aedan struggle to express themselves, but decided it would be too much work, so I assumed that (because of the long occupation) that educated people from Ferelden would speak Orlesian....although Aedan's style is viewed as noticeably courtly and formal when he is in a dockside tavern.  Later, Aedan is listening to sailors talk and wonders how Alistair is faring because he suspects many words the sailor use do not appear in the Chant of Light.  Oh, well, I guess it's just another way my fanfic is a bit AU.

[DreGregoire]

Dalish being able to read etc.

Dalish do have contact with settlements and city elves do join them on occasion and it isn't unheard of for apostates from the circle towers to join the dalish. So there would be access to those skills. I chose to believe that my dalish elf learned the skill, it never even occured to me to think there wouldn't be the option to learn the skill, definately the keeper and her trainee have the skill so I don't think it would be far fetched to assume they had taught others that were interested in learning. So it could go either way in my mind, either your dalish showed an interest in the knowledge and learned it or they were too busy hunting to take the time

Modifié par DreGregoire, 25 octobre 2010 - 03:42 .

[Addai]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

In game a few characters remark that Ferelden speaks the "common tongue."
In fic I explained that as they used to have a unique language, but it's long since died out as anything but people/place names and historical record, so now they basically use the international trade tongue as their local language. That could be why it seems like the whole world speaks the same language as them.

Which is odd, because Ferelden is a backwater and very independent.  I could understand this happening in a place that was more of a crossroads.  Probably a sacrifice of realism to the game gods.

[maxernst]

Corker wrote...

Not only can the Dalish not read the elven book, a human mage can. At least a little. And Morrigan apparently could as well.

Re: tech levels... ohmygoodness, I just give up, honestly. Orlais with its elaborate wigs and all sounds like the court of Louis XV (1700s); Antiva sounds like Renaissance Italy circa 1500 or so; Ferelden looks like well-developed English feudalism at 1200ish. Forget all the books - how about all the glazed windows? But yes, no university in Ferelden, when proto-Oxford was forming in the 1000s. Time-traveling armor and weapon styles. It's... just... Standard High Fantasy Window Dressing 101, now with More Dogs. Trying to actually tie it to an historical reality is an exercise in frustration. My advice is not to.

Historical parallels are never perfect, but I still find them useful as a hint.  Political organization can hint at the economic base and social classes of a society, for example, even if it doesn't precisely parallel (and why should it?) exactly any real society.  As far as Universities, I think England developed a little early because of having an unusually strong central government for the time, plus the Norman kings were really determined to put their stamp on England.  Universities developed much later in Germany and Scandinavia, for example.

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

LupusYondergirl wrote...

In game a few characters remark that Ferelden speaks the "common tongue."
In fic I explained that as they used to have a unique language, but it's long since died out as anything but people/place names and historical record, so now they basically use the international trade tongue as their local language. That could be why it seems like the whole world speaks the same language as them.

Which is odd, because Ferelden is a backwater and very independent.  I could understand this happening in a place that was more of a crossroads.  Probably a sacrifice of realism to the game gods.

Unless the "common tongue" is basically Orlesian...they could have lost their own language after two hundred years of occupation.  If it's Tevinter's language that is common, it seems odd that Ferelden would have held onto it...though I guess Romania was a frontier province that held onto latin for whatever reason.

[LupusYondergirl]

Addai67 wrote...

LupusYondergirl wrote...

In game a few characters remark that Ferelden speaks the "common tongue."
In fic I explained that as they used to have a unique language, but it's long since died out as anything but people/place names and historical record, so now they basically use the international trade tongue as their local language. That could be why it seems like the whole world speaks the same language as them.

Which is odd, because Ferelden is a backwater and very independent.  I could understand this happening in a place that was more of a crossroads.  Probably a sacrifice of realism to the game gods.

Not necessarily impossible, though.  Under English occupation the Irish language all but died out completely, and this was entirely from the eighteenth century to the nineteenth.  I can't see Orlais being more sensitive to preserving the local culture or anything like that...  It seems likely everyone in Ferelden might have already known the common tongue- perhaps that was always the language the Chantry used or something, and Orlais simply insisted on the local language being abandoned.

In the case of Gaeilge, it was only able to be revived in the early 20th century because of isolated communities in the Gaeltacht who still spoke it, although it's probably never going to be a commonly spoken language again- just something people are taught in school.  It seems very possible the Orlesians would insist on people using the common tongue, and after the occupation ended the Ferelden language was simply never revived. 

(told my mom those four semesters of Irish language would come in useful some day!)

[nos_astra]

But the Irish language died because they lost speakers due to the Great Famine, half of the population either died or imigrated. You would know that, of course. I just skimmed through wikipedia.

I'm not sure this is what the writers intended. A common tongue that explains why you miraculously understand slavers from Tevinter and Orlesian Wardens and only Ferelden speaks it exclusively? Everyone else speaks their own language? Orlesian = French, Tevinter = Latin/Greek. Antiva = Spanish/Italian, Anderfels = German.

If the Fereldan language died out they would have adopted Orlesian as the common tongue, wouldn't they? And how do you make a whole world bilingual?

I don't know, I don't like jumping through logical hoops to explain stuff that exists only because they wanted to save time and money.

Modifié par klarabella, 25 octobre 2010 - 04:31 .

[DreGregoire]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

(told my mom those four semesters of Irish language would come in useful some day!)

Haha you sound like you think somewhat like I do. Who knew it would be for make believe stories (fan fiction)? hahaha  Would my parents consider that valid proof for the effort spent? Probably not but they might not call me on it to be nice. LOL. My mom once said to me when I was showing my nephew what to do to get to the next step in Baldurs Gate (maybe it wasn't baldurs gate but it was a game like that). "Oh, is this what you do instead of writing all those fantasy stories?" Don't worry I set her straight and said, "Oh, no I still do that too." ahahha.

[Addai]

Wasn't there a concerted attempt to force English on the Gaelic peoples, however? And colonization? Orlais did not seem to colonize Ferelden at all, except for the upper crust. There's also no mention of Fereldan being banned or anything like that.



I haven't thought too much about this, but put to it, I would say that Fereldan is still in use and that's why Orlesians and Antivans have an accent. When Sten says "use the common tongue," I think he means common Fereldan or what is called the king's tongue. It will be interesting to see in DA2 if the Free Marches share a language with Ferelden.

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

Wasn't there a concerted attempt to force English on the Gaelic peoples, however? And colonization? Orlais did not seem to colonize Ferelden at all, except for the upper crust. There's also no mention of Fereldan being banned or anything like that.

I haven't thought too much about this, but put to it, I would say that Fereldan is still in use and that's why Orlesians and Antivans have an accent. When Sten says "use the common tongue," I think he means common Fereldan or what is called the king's tongue. It will be interesting to see in DA2 if the Free Marches share a language with Ferelden.

Yeah, I've always kind of thought of the Orlesian occupation being analogous to the Conquest, and while the common people ended up adopting a ton of french words, English is still fundamentally a Germanic language.  What's curious is that the Normans clung to French much longer in England than they held onto their own language when they arrived in Normandy.  They seem to have become culturally almost completely French within a century or so.