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[nos_astra]

Another little rewrite. I just found a a good reason as to why Duncan may kill Jory.

Jory got infected with the Blight sickness during the little trips into the wilds and wanted to leave, Duncan felt he couldn't let the man leave, quite possibly tainting things as the sickness progresses, so he killed him.

No more inconsistency with the fact that it seems common knowledge that the Joining is often fatal. *looks pleased with herself*

Modifié par klarabella, 31 octobre 2010 - 09:29 .

[sabreene]

I like that explanation quite a bit! And it makes sense.



Sometimes it's quite a struggle to make game events make sense!

[Reika]

Another thing that doesn't make sense is how it seems like the Wardens didn't seem to know about the broodmothers. When you talk with Duncan in any of the origins, he always comments that he doesn't know how the darkspawn rebuilt their numbers.



The only thing I can think of is the only ones who find them are Wardens answering their Calling or Legion of the Dead, all of whom get messily slaughtered. Still in 1200 years, no one figured it out?

[LupusYondergirl]

@Reika: From what they said in The Calling, most Wardens entering the Deep Roads (outside a blight when the darkspawn are on the surface) are killed instantly, so it could just be as simple as that.

Plus, with 400 years since the last Blight, it may just simply be that records are spotty. Or that perhaps Duncan didn't know but, say, the First Warden did. It seems like there is a lot of secrecy, not just between Wardens and the general public, but even among the ranks of the order.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Is the Joining being fatal common knowledge? I got the impression from Duncan that it wasn't, which is why he warned the recruits at Ostagar as a 'point of no return' kinda thing. Maybe not a closely-guarded secret, unlike the darkspawn blood, but still not something everyone was aware of.

Nathaniel Howe mentioned he never heard from one of his relatives again after they went off to be a Grey Warden, and only said he believes they might have died in the Joining in retrospect of what he knows now due to his own.

re: Broodmothers...it's odd, because I was looking at the Codex and it can either be interpretted to mean that you (and Alistair?) are the first Grey Wardens to discover the truth of how the darkspawn reproduce, or if other Grey Wardens found the answer and it's just not common knowledge. I get the feeling that a lot of secrets might be witheld by Weisshaupt.

re: How do you guys rationalize their going into the Deep Roads in your story? Two months while a Blight is raging topside?

Mobilise the human and elven forces first before going for the dwarves, to hopefully offer the countryside the most protection and time to prepare. Shale was harder to justify, as my HNF only picked her up *after* the Deep Roads (so she missed out on meeting Caridin).

Really, I find it harder to justify half the sidequests of running from one side of Ferelden to the other. The only thing that seems to make it 'ok' is that the archdemon hasn't officially appeared, I guess.

Edit: Lupus ninja'd my First Warden Secrecy idea!

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 31 octobre 2010 - 11:40 .

[Corker]

@SoLD: At the Landsmeet, Anora's quick to point out that "The Joining is often fatal, is it not? If he survives, you gain a great general. If he dies, you have your revenge," or something to that effect. That line is a bit of a WTF? after all the secret-secret stuff at Ostagar.

[inquartata02]

 

klarabella wrote...
How do you guys rationalize their going into the Deep Roads in your story? Two months while a Blight is raging topside? 

My story is very AU, but my party went (with Riordan, but there was an entire setup there before this part) to scout for a more exact location of the archdemon and stayed to kill a broodmother when Riordan sensed it. I'd also left King Endrin alive so they didn't have to deal with any of that king-appointing stuff. 

[LupusYondergirl]

@Corker: I always handwaved that as some people outside the order- monarchs, the First Enchanter or other high-ranked mages (since they prepare the Joining), people like that, are aware of the unavoidable fatality rate. Not in detail, just enough that they don't become suspicious of this order where half the people who try to join are never seen again.

Plus, Duncan blabbed to Maric in The Calling. Maybe he told Cailan, who passed it on to Anora?



But like SoLD says, I think the fatality isn't as 'big' a secret as the drinking darkspawn blood part. For all people know it's some brutal endurance test or a fight to the death with other recruits or something.

[LupusYondergirl]

oh, and @klarabella : I had it that my Warden thought the dwarves would win or lose the battle, since they were the only treaty group with extensive knowledge about and experience against darkspawn, so she would have basically said 'how high' if they said jump.

Plus, both she and Alistair commented in-story that while Duncan probably could have gotten his support from the assembly with or without a king, to everyone in Orzammar they were just a couple kids. They were somewhat respected simply because they were Wardens, but neither of them was the actual Warden Commander, and neither was a known and respected figure on a personal basis. (while in comparison Duncan had become second in command in Ferelden almost twenty years earlier)

Because of that no one in the city really saw a need to kiss ass or bend over backwards for them. They were a couple twenty year olds demanding help for a 'surface issue' while the whole city was in chaos from the perspective of everyone in Orzammar, which meant they were the ones who had to do some ass kissing and bending over backwards, or just leave without the promise of troops.

[jackkel dragon]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

But like SoLD says, I think the fatality isn't as 'big' a secret as the drinking darkspawn blood part. For all people know it's some brutal endurance test or a fight to the death with other recruits or something.

Technically, it is a brutal endurance test.

Though I would like to see an uber slugfest with Warden/Daveth/Jory now. We could have a cutscene at Ostagar where Jory kills Daveth and then kicks his own ass. That would be great.

[FutileSine]

@ Lupus. Interesting...I liked the point about the dwarves being the best ally as they have the most experience against the DS and I agree that perhaps the whole ass-kissing route is the way to go...I guess my big issue is that I don't like how you have to deal with the second's first because the two potential ruler's don't "trust" you I could be wrong, as its been awhile since I've played through Orzammar, thank goodness.... Don't you still have to earn their "trust" via talking to their seconds? What have the GW's done to earn either side's mistrust? In my mind's eye I would see both sides trying to convince the GW over to their side...cause they (Harrowmont and Bhelen) know that they have something the GW's need -> their troops. And they gain someone whom doesn't really have to abide by dwarven customs...



Once either side has swayed the GW, then they start asking him/her to do random quests to help them being King so they can give the GW troops. You know..."Oh please, fight in this Proving for me, cause there is no way the Assembly will deny me being King then!" then when the GW has done so pulling the old, "Thanks so much for your help! Unfortunately that didn't help sway any votes in my direction....could you take out this Jarvia character for me? The Assembly can't refuse me then!!" THEN coming back from that all the more worse for wear, having worn the GW down so much pulling out the "Go to the DR and search for this missing Paragon...THEN for SHURE I'll help you out. I promise!!"



Of course if you don't have to meet with the seconds for trust issues, then my whole idea is kinda blown to smithereens...but twas fun to think about!



@inquartata - Wow! That certainly is AU! I like how you kept King Endrin alive - definitely solved the sticky successor situation!

[maxernst]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Is the Joining being fatal common knowledge? I got the impression from Duncan that it wasn't, which is why he warned the recruits at Ostagar as a 'point of no return' kinda thing. Maybe not a closely-guarded secret, unlike the darkspawn blood, but still not something everyone was aware of.

Really, I find it harder to justify half the sidequests of running from one side of Ferelden to the other. The only thing that seems to make it 'ok' is that the archdemon hasn't officially appeared, I guess.

Edit: Lupus ninja'd my First Warden Secrecy idea!

I agree.  I've always felt there was a big inconsistency between the way the Ser jory situation was presented in game and the Landsmeet where Anora apparently knows the Joining is potentially fatal and Alistair is permitted to simply walk out on the Wardens with all his knowledge.  One possibility that occurs to me is that Riordan talked to Anora before the Landsmeet (what is he even DOING there, anyway?) and felt he needed to explain the risk to her...though I think that's a bit weak.  And then Riordan can't risk getting himself killed trying to stop Alistair; maybe they'll send assassins for him after the blight is over.  Then again, it would be hard to keep secret the fact that many people recruited by the wardens vanish over so many years.  Maybe only the details  are secret.  Could they be concerned the Chantry would view it as blood magic?

Maybe Duncan is just a maniac.  We always assume that Duncan is the archetypal Grey Warden, but we don't have any in-game knowledge to support that.

And yeah, I've always felt the biggest plot hole in the game is what the hell the darkspawn horde does while you're wandering all over Ferelden.  All they do is sack Lothering and other parts of southern Ferelden?  For a whole year?  But we couldn't possibly go to get help from the Wardens in Orlais because that's weeks away.  And yes, I know that there's a problem with getting hope from Orlais, but we don't know that at the time.

Modifié par maxernst, 01 novembre 2010 - 12:41 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Corker wrote...

@SoLD: At the Landsmeet, Anora's quick to point out that "The Joining is often fatal, is it not? If he survives, you gain a great general. If he dies, you have your revenge," or something to that effect. That line is a bit of a WTF? after all the secret-secret stuff at Ostagar.

Yep, I remember that bit. I didn't think it strange that Anora might be aware of the possibility of death, especially not with Loghain as a father and Cailan as a husband (both having had relations with Grey Wardens to various degrees). I always took it to mean that Anora blabbed that out in a moment of desperation, using any means she could to convince Alistair (and maybe the PC) to let Loghain undergo the Joining.

(By that note, obviously the Grey Warden Possible Death Sentence would be much more common knowledge in Ferelden after the Landsmeet )

(I should also read the entire thread before posting, but I see Lupus has beat me to it again on some of this speculation XD Needless to say I agree with her comments.)

@maxernst - Oh, interesting point about Alistair being allowed to walk away with all his knowledge. Yes, the Grey Wardens have a few inconsistencies...Riordan doesn't seem to mind letting someone 'leave the order', but Duncan's not about to let an unjoined Knight swear any kind of secrecy oaths.

I tried to rationalise this in an unposted/half-written fic that Grey Wardens might actually be afraid of revealing they are Tainted, and it's as much for concern of public backlash as it is wanting to lure more recruits that they don't mention it. Conversely, someone like Jory would have nothing to lose by flapping his yap.

Does Loghain ever find out about the Grey Warden/Darkspawn blood in the novels?

Regarding justifying travel into the dwarven realm, someone mentioned the dwarven experience with fighting darkspawn (they do it all the time, Blight or no), which is spot on. For seasoned veterans and the possibility of golems, the surface can hopefully cope on its own for a little while (and if not, at least Orzammar is close to the Orlesian border for a handy retreat :/)

[Sarah1281]

I guess my big issue is that I don't like how you have to deal with the second's first because the two potential ruler's don't "trust" you I could be wrong, as its been awhile since I've played through Orzammar, thank goodness.... Don't you still have to earn their "trust" via talking to their seconds? What have the GW's done to earn either side's mistrust? In my mind's eye I would see both sides trying to convince the GW over to their side...cause they (Harrowmont and Bhelen) know that they have something the GW's need -> their troops. And they gain someone whom doesn't really have to abide by dwarven customs...

We hear from the first guard you talk to in Orzammar after the Bhelen-Harrowmont confrontation cutscene that both candidates have retreated to their respective estates and won't leave them for fear fo getting assassinated and so it follows that they wouldn't allow just anyone in to see them. I mean, if a Grey Warden could just come up to Vartag or Dulin, ask to see Bhelen or Harrowmont, be left alone with them and then kill them then the would-be king would really deserve what they get for being that naive in Orzammar.



Dulin also tells you that one of the reasons he won't take you straight to Harrowmont is because they keep catching Bhelen's spies and so they're not taking any chances. Bhelen and Vartag tend to assume that everyone thinks like they do and since they'd happily send you off to infiltrate Harrowmont's ranks and possibly kill him if you got a chance then why couldn't you be there to do it for them?



The note delivering and Proving matches (which I'm not sure if it actually happens but according to the toolset, if you ask the Steward about how the election is going he gives you an update after every task) are to at least do a little to make seeing you worth their time and to make you get at least a little invested in their cause because if you're not willing to do that, again, you're not worth their time at present. Jarvia is an immediate problem and she can be killed now. It won't be enough to completely sway people but it will help or hurt their causes all the same and every little bit counts.



Sure, they could send you after Branka the minute you come into the city but for all they know she's dead. Harrowmont sends you after her because he really can't see any other way to win and Bhelen sends you after her...well, since they use the same cutscene where he demands a quick vote even though he promised to stall and tells you you did more than he expected once you brought back the crown, it really seems like he's just trying to get you out of the way now that he thinks he has sufficient support and you might turn on him at any point. You actually finding the Paragon and maybe the Anvil is just an added bonus.



Neither Bhelen nor Harrowmont actually has want you want. Whichever one becomes king can grant them to you but if it weren't for the fact that there are game mechanics and the Blight isn't giving you all the time in the world, you wouldn't even really have to get involved with the election.

[nos_astra]

Orzammar:
In a society where killing off your political opponents is a valid method of strengthening your position, wouldn't it be a sign weakness to hide in your estate? Wouldn't Bhelen be more confident and forward, maybe even approaching you because of the treaties, his interest in opening Orzammar up to the surface? Wouldn't Harrowmont be the reluctant one?

This could also explain why one would chose Bhelen without a second thought. You don't have to prove anything, you are a Grey Warden and you want those treaties honored. Bhelen wants to be King, crowned by the last living paragon.

Jory:
I changed the Joining subplot because this extreme secrecy isn't convincing for me.
Not with Anora knowing about the Joining and telling everyone of the Landsmeet.
If it isn't common knowledge that Joining the Grey Warden has repercussions, how could recruiting Loghain be considered a punishment to anyone? Wouldn't at least some of the banns and arls refuse to let him off the hook so easily?
How can Varel do the Joining in Awakening?
Why do Wynne and Leliana know so much about the Wardens (all the talk about sacrifices)?
So many Grey Wardens can leave the order (Alistair, Anders, Nathaniel) and no one is afraid they could spill secrets?
How does the Right of Consciption work if the order is so secretive? You conscript someone against his will, force them to drink Darkspawn blood, why would they keep silent about the Joining?

Modifié par klarabella, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:50 .

[sabreene]

I can't remember and can't find where I saw it at -- can someone point me towards the names of the Ferelden months, and what months (or seasons) they correspond to for us?

[nos_astra]

Month High Name Low Name
1st Verimensis Wintermarch
2nd Pluitanis Guardian
3rd Nubulis Drakonis
4th Eluviesta Cloudreach
5th Molioris Bloomingtide
6th Ferventis Justinian
7th Solis Solace
8th Matrinalis August
9th Parvulis Kingsway
10th Frumentum Harvestmere
11th Umbralis Firstfall
12th Cassus Haring

(from Maria13's Dark Ritual)

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Calendar
da-codex.appspot.com/ (DAO codex)

Modifié par klarabella, 01 novembre 2010 - 10:04 .

[Esbatty]

klarabella wrote...

Month High Name Low Name
1st Verimensis Wintermarch
2nd Pluitanis Guardian
3rd Nubulis Drakonis
4th Eluviesta Cloudreach
5th Molioris Bloomingtide
6th Ferventis Justinian
7th Solis Solace
8th Matrinalis August
9th Parvulis Kingsway
10th Frumentum Harvestmere
11th Umbralis Firstfall
12th Cassus Haring

(from Maria13's Dark Ritual)

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Calendar
da-codex.appspot.com/ (DAO codex)

I guess since I'm gonna start writing more fic I should get some of the RP books. Man it sucks not having anyone to game with. Stupid town where no one reads.

[sabreene]

@klarabella - Thank you!!!

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I do like the idea that Bhelen might just be trying to get rid of the PC by sending them into the Deep Roads, Sarah...nice.

klarabella wrote...

Jory:
I changed the Joining subplot because this extreme secrecy isn't convincing for me.
Not with Anora knowing about the Joining and telling everyone of the Landsmeet.
If it isn't common knowledge that Joining the Grey Warden has repercussions, how could recruiting Loghain be considered a punishment to anyone? Wouldn't at least some of the banns and arls refuse to let him off the hook so easily?

Well...Anora piping up about the Joining pretty much informs/reminds everyone there are repercussions. The extreme secrecy isn't entirely convincing to me either, but I think that bit can be worked around considering Anora isn't a nobody, and was directly involved with people who had significant dealings with Wardens. If Duncan has revealed GW stuff to non-Wardens (which I wasn't aware of, having not read the novels), I don't find it a stretch to include Anora with some knowledge (and I don't find it a stretch for her to 'betray' that knowledge to try and save her father, not if she's willing to betray the Wardens to secure her throne).

Besides that...maybe the banns etc consider Loghain becoming a Grey Warden after he framed them to be poetic justice. If not, well, tough. Apparently the Wardens can conscript ANYONE.

How can Varel do the Joining in Awakening?

Ah, this. I think Varel not being a Warden was more a plot convenience than anything. His history gives no real reason why he should know the secrets of the Order, unless in the months after DA:O the Orlesian Wardens decided to tell him secrets. I don't think his part in the game was thought out, but Awakenings had a few wrinkles.

Why do Wynne and Leliana know so much about the Wardens (all the talk about sacrifices)?

Heroic tales always have sacrifices? The Wardens riding at the front of the army to take the brunt of the attack etc? The Wardens are supposed to be legends, and there are bound to be stories (however tall). Considering the Warden motto talks about sacrifice, I'm guessing this could figure prominently in the tales.

But I play it that the Calling, or a vague version of it, is known to be the last walk of Wardens who had spent a long time fighting tainted creatures. Like their legendary immunity finally starts to give out or something.

So many Grey Wardens can leave the order (Alistair, Anders, Nathaniel) and no one is afraid they could spill secrets?

This is a significant one IMO. I've already said what I think about the Taint secret, but that certainly doesn't mean that someone couldn't spill the beans anyway. In DA:O we possibly could have countered this, as Alistair can be executed--heck, Riordan could even sneak out if Alistair *isn't* killed and finish him off with none being the wiser.

Awakenings, though, makes it clear Wardens can just up and walk out. Oversight? I dunno. I doubt all Grey Wardens who are conscripted hang around to Do Their Duty, so either there's a safeguard we're unaware of or other nations deal with deserters differently than Fereldens (who are majorly short).

How does the Right of Consciption work if the order is so secretive? You conscript someone against his will, force them to drink Darkspawn blood, why would they keep silent about the Joining?

I don't think the darkspawn blood is forced down their throats. I'd guess anyone who objects too strenuously is killed outright. Drinking under duress isn't a recipe for loyalty (though Riordan doesn't seem to think loyalty matters, IIRC...).

Well. Bioware tried to have it make sense. Sort of. Change things around or try to bend stuff until the pieces fit, it doesn't matter.

[Esbatty]

I figure Alistair is allowed to live because if Loghain, The Warden, Riordan fall in battle Alistair would still be around to do his duty. He wouldn't just let the Blight go on as such. But Loghain does replace his ass on the team, its his own fault, but still he is easily replaced.



Besides when Anders/Nathaniel/Velanna etc take off you're in charge. You allow it. They served you in yet another Darkest Hour of Ferelden in really really unique circumstances.

[Sarah1281]

Orzammar:

In a society where killing off your political opponents is a valid method of strengthening your position, wouldn't it be a sign weakness to hide in your estate? Wouldn't Bhelen be more confident and forward, maybe even approaching you because of the treaties, his interest in opening Orzammar up to the surface? Wouldn't Harrowmont be the reluctant one?

I think that in a society where killing off your political opponent is a valid means of strengthening your position, it's better for Bhelen to look a little weak (and since Harrowmont does the same thing he's not looking any weaker than his opponent) than to get himself killed. The only thing that doesn't make sense to me, though, is that he and Harrowmont were just out in the open right before you showed up and while one of Bhelen's men attacked a guard which may indicate to Harrowmont that Bhelen's men wouldn't hesitate to kill him, Harrowmont's men just ran away so why would Bhelen feel threatened? Did he get ambushed by fanatics or assassins on his way back? And why would they both even be out their in the commons in the first place? The most obvious explanations would be a Deep Roads expedition (which you'd think they'd be too busy fighting over the crown for) or a Proving as both of those involve going through the commons but we don't hear anything about a Proving taking place just before you got there. I guess both of them could have been there to deal with setting the Proving up.

So many Grey Wardens can leave the order (Alistair, Anders, Nathaniel) and no one is afraid they could spill secrets?

Why would they need to be an active member of the order to keep secrets? Admittedly, letting Alistair leave the order after you spare Loghain and he's utterly disillusioned strikes me as a horrible idea secrecy-wise as he now has no respect for them and knows at least some of their secrets so he seems like a huge risk for telling but if the others just get bored or don't feel like it's for them that doesn't mean they'd feel the need to go blabbing to everyone how Grey Wardens are created, why one of them has to end the Blight, ect. It's probably a judgement call. If Jory had undertaken the Joining and survived but later wanted to leave the order and you suspected that he was going to go telling everyone about everything, you might need to kill him first but someone who would tell wouldn't necessarily wait until they quit to do so. He could easily write to his wife or his fellow knights all about how sick the Joining is right after surviving.

[maxernst]

klarabella wrote...

Jory:
I changed the Joining subplot because this extreme secrecy isn't convincing for me.
Not with Anora knowing about the Joining and telling everyone of the Landsmeet.
If it isn't common knowledge that Joining the Grey Warden has repercussions, how could recruiting Loghain be considered a punishment to anyone? Wouldn't at least some of the banns and arls refuse to let him off the hook so easily?
How can Varel do the Joining in Awakening?
Why do Wynne and Leliana know so much about the Wardens (all the talk about sacrifices)?
So many Grey Wardens can leave the order (Alistair, Anders, Nathaniel) and no one is afraid they could spill secrets?
How does the Right of Consciption work if the order is so secretive? You conscript someone against his will, force them to drink Darkspawn blood, why would they keep silent about the Joining?

Part of the issue is that the Grey Wardens are kind of analogous in some ways to certain other groups in DA:O (the Legion of the Dead), in fiction (the Night Watch in George R.R. Martin's books) and history (joining the Crusade).  All of these are options that enable somebody who is criminal or disgraced to escape death in order to serve the perceived greater good.  The difference with the wardens (and I think it's a problematic one) is that in those other cases, the recruit is essentially exiled from society, so these things are much more clearly seen as punishments.

[nefand]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

So many Grey Wardens can leave the order (Alistair, Anders, Nathaniel) and no one is afraid they could spill secrets?

This is a significant one IMO. I've already said what I think about the Taint secret, but that certainly doesn't mean that someone couldn't spill the beans anyway. In DA:O we possibly could have countered this, as Alistair can be executed--heck, Riordan could even sneak out if Alistair *isn't* killed and finish him off with none being the wiser.

Awakenings, though, makes it clear Wardens can just up and walk out. Oversight? I dunno. I doubt all Grey Wardens who are conscripted hang around to Do Their Duty, so either there's a safeguard we're unaware of or other nations deal with deserters differently than Fereldens (who are majorly short).

How does the Right of Consciption work if the order is so secretive? You conscript someone against his will, force them to drink Darkspawn blood, why would they keep silent about the Joining?

I don't think the darkspawn blood is forced down their throats. I'd guess anyone who objects too strenuously is killed outright. Drinking under duress isn't a recipe for loyalty (though Riordan doesn't seem to think loyalty matters, IIRC...).

Well. Bioware tried to have it make sense. Sort of. Change things around or try to bend stuff until the pieces fit, it doesn't matter.

I don't really see any of this as a problem plot-wise... allow me to explain.

First, it's been, what?  400 years since the last Blight?  They Grey Warden numbers are significantly thinned by the time Origins starts, at least that's the impression I got.  And not just their presence in Ferelden, but sort of dwindling overall.

So in Ferelden for the majority of ~20 years it's been pretty much just Duncan, though somewhere along the way - before Alistair's Joining - he picked up about 3 GW's, right?  There are no details on whether these guys were imported from other areas (ie reassigned or wandered into Ferelden) or actual recruits of Duncan's, just that he had a few with him and they all died at Ostagar.  I think you actually get to see them in the Dwarven noble origin, in fact.

Second, and forgive me but I cannot seem to recall exactly WHO said it but I think it was Riordin, there is an attitude that one is ALWAYS a Grey Warden, and even though you may "leave" the Order you really don't because it's in your blood, and all Grey Wardens will meet their end in the same place - the Deep Roads.  So the Order may simply look at someone who says they're walking away and be like "yeah, whatever, see you in 30 years my brother" because you can't ever really leave the order, no matter what you say or think.

It's a part of you, period.

So in that sense, why should they care if someone wanders off or chooses to live elsewhere or whatever?  In the Calling the two guys talked about how they had planned to live out their days in some remote area together, but since one of them died to the dragon, the other chose to stay in the Fade with the fantasy version of that dream.  But clearly, they had planned on leaving the Order for seclusion until their respective callings.

I really don't think that it matters to the Order if a GW chooses to leave the fold, as it were, even with all the so-called secrets they like to keep.

Another thing of note is that as GW's age, there is this impression in the lore that they tend to isolate themselves from normal people, and maybe even seek out other GW's.  This may have to do with some Taint-impulse, or simply depression, but if GW's tend to get hermity as they approach that age then there's another reason why the Order wouldn't worry about telling secrets... who would you tell them to?

Third, who cares if the "you might die at the Joining" is revealed?  A GW who is asked the question would likely shrug, or play it off as just one of a hundred rumors about GW's.  You KNOW there are plenty of rumors about the Order already, surely not all of them can be flattering "oh they're great warrior"-type rumors, can they?  Some have to be negative and scary.

But then again, after 400 years and low recruitment in Ferelden, maybe the Joining IS a restored secret by sheer attrition of shorts.  Who knows.  But you also do NOT know for certain that the secrets Ferelden kept are also secrets throughout the rest of Thedas.

As for Anora knowing, well... what sort of ruler would she be if she didn't have the 411 on all the players in her political game, including the Grey Wardens?  Does it matter how she knew about the Joining?  I bet Empress Celene knows.  I also bet that the First Enchanter knows, as does the Grand Cleric.

Do you think anybody reaches a position of power without learning how to uncover other people's and institution's secrets?  I don't.

So, really, no big surprise there, either.

[Sarah1281]

Woo-hoo! I just finished writing my story! 

Of course, it won't be fully uploaded for a few weeks but at least it's done.