10369 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

Personally, I hate fight scenes (and sex scenes for that matter). I hate writing them, I hate reading them, and I probably won't comment on them. They're just really, really boring to me.

[LupusYondergirl]

soignee wrote...

yeah, "relationfics" are the big review
spinners, or where the relationship is the main focus of the plot.
That's just my casual observation of this fandom though. The unf unf is
most popular. WHAT'S THIS CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT NONSENSE, WHERE'S THE
PRON?

*pbbt*
Hey now, some of us resemble that remark!

...goes back to writing smut.  :whistle:

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 10 novembre 2010 - 10:47 .

[Gilgamesh1138]

soignee I love you! Yeah, romance novels are the hits. I mean, I can be honest, maybe my battle scenes were boring. But I am glad I am not the only one to catch that the relationfics are the most reviewed. You made me feel better, I was feeling like a prat who was imagining things.

[Maria13]

Yes, I've just put two kink meme fills on FFadult.net over 200 hits in two days and they're not particularly good.

Fight scenes and sex scenes are difficult to write. I just finished a chapter describing a proving, it took twice as long as the next one but at least someone was nice enough to say I do good fight scenes...

I take Sarah's point but when your main character is a former fighter, you have to grasp the nettle...

Gilga!!!

Modifié par Maria13, 10 novembre 2010 - 11:12 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Fight scenes can be full of awesome. I don't mean the action, but the way the author can use them for character development. Fight scenes that are just 'Random Encounter' action that result in nothing but XP and Loot I find dull myself, but there's a kind of atmosphere in battles and conflict that can open all sorts of doors for character thoughts, reactions, emotions, that's hard to reproduce in other situations.

In short...I love fight scenes if they serve a greater purpose than just for pointless action/gratuitous violence. Otherwise (IMO) you might as well gloss over them and get on with 'the story'. But this is coming from a person who likes plot-and-character driven stories.

(Disclaimer: Grandiose descriptions of battle such as Lord of the Rings? Fine, if your entire book is full of like extended descriptions on absolutely everything. That's a point of writer style, and some readers love it.)

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 10 novembre 2010 - 11:32 .

[nefand]

soignee wrote...
yeah, "relationfics" are the big review spinners, or where the relationship is the main focus of the plot. That's just my casual observation of this fandom though. The unf unf is most popular. WHAT'S THIS CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT NONSENSE, WHERE'S THE PRON?

QFMFT

What boggle my mind to no end are the OBVIOUS Mary Sue relationfics that consistently get glowing reviews, even though the story is so horrendous the author should have their keyboard privileges revoked, their internet access terminated and Simon Cowell sent to their house to tell give a point by point explanation of all the reasons why they suck at writing, and for the love of humanity should never do it again.

That's not to say there aren't a few fantastic relationship fics, because there are; Cartography immediately comes to mind as a shining example of beautiful prose with a well-executed storyline that stayed true to the canon, and developed a believable Loghain/Cousland relationship.  But those are few and far between, and for all its strengths I still wouldn't categorize it as a "thinking man's story", as it were; it was, ultimately, a WYSIWYG relationship fic, despite toying with some deeper concepts regarding internal power plays within the GW Order as part of the plot development.

But in the end I was glad to see it get lots of recognition, which I think was entirely deserved.

As for many of the other stories... eh, not so much.

I am forced to conclude that the majority of the readerbase is either incapable of appreciating complex characterization and plot design, or incapable of understanding it, or is simply there for don't-make-me-think escapist fare that makes them tingle betwixt their nethers.

I know I have ranted about it at length to my Fiance, who's responses have included "quality reviews are better than quantity reviews" and "you're the author, you're not obligated to explain or justify your story to anybody," both statements of which are sound advice.

I think I have also driven my beta to the brink of insanity with my emo comments each chapter lamenting how nobody is going to understand this or that, to which she responds "I understand what you're doing here" and thank the Maker for that since she's the one getting the PhD in this stuff.  BUT STILL.

My running joke with each chapter is that the happier I am with how it turned out, the fewer reviews it gets; whereas the ones I'm not happy with but go with anyway get more reviews.  Time and again, that's what happens.

This is why I am now a proponent of finishing the story in full before ever posting the first chapter; it's too damn frustrating to deal with these issues while you're still trying to produce the story, and too easy to let it impede your progress overall.

/rant off

[Merilsell]

I try to skip battle-scenes normally in my story, because I find mine usually boring written (I suck at them, really). But as Shadow has said so well, they can be also be seized for character development, to create a dangerous/ life-threatened athmosphere which is hard to create otherwise. As for the pr0n thing, I'm all in for muuuuuch character development before even coming close to that. Then again I'm a fan of character and plot-driven stories, so no huge surprise here.

Ahh, and Sarah I'm still giggling over your reviews. They are just so wonderfully and refreshingly written. Love them Actually, I'm still in awe for your marathon of reading and reviewing, really *humbly bows down* I pick some question out to answer them tomorrow, kay? Need some sleep first *yawns*

Edit: I just love your rant, Mal. So true. *nod* Though it also helps when you are a few chapter ahead of what is posted. Makes things much more relaxed, so to speak. Noticed that with my story, because I can post that chapter then, shrug and go back to the other, current one to write that on.

Modifié par Merilsell, 11 novembre 2010 - 12:42 .

[nefand]

Maria13 wrote...

Yes, I've just put two kink meme fills on FFadult.net over 200 hits in two days and they're not particularly good.

Fight scenes and sex scenes are difficult to write. I just finished a chapter describing a proving, it took twice as long as the next one but at least someone was nice enough to say I do good fight scenes...

I take Sarah's point but when your main character is a former fighter, you have to grasp the nettle...

Gilga!!!

Wait.. there's an FFadult.net?  And if I'm too reserved to even type in the url to even see if it's actually true, odds are I don't want to go there, huh?

God, I'm turning into a prude in my old age...

I have a more difficult time with sex scenes than fighting, I think, though to be honest I've only grappled with each at length in Thread, not EoG.  I struggled with the sex scene in Thread, starting with too much detail and eventually culling it down to a few key lines that focused on character interaction more than the action, and Mel said I was channeling author Jennifer Crusie, which was a good thing in her opinion so *hooray* for that.

The fight chapter was actually easier, but I had everything plotted out on how things were supposed to unfold... in the end it turned out well, and I got positive feedback that the action was easy to follow and reasonably entertaining.  But again, I had to review it multiple times to cut out excessive detail to bring it down to reflect only what was absolutely necessary to convey what was happening.

For me, the trick in each instance was to write what came out, then edit it down repeatedly, and keep asking myself if this or that description was necessary to the scene or was it something I could leave to the reader's imagination to fill in the gap.  I think when the subject is either sex or violence, the reader is probably quite good at filling in details themselves if you let them...

Just my take on it.

[Tellervo]

soignee wrote...

yeah, "relationfics" are the big review spinners, or where the relationship is the main focus of the plot. That's just my casual observation of this fandom though. The unf unf is most popular. WHAT'S THIS CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT NONSENSE, WHERE'S THE PRON?

 ::pushes setup fic out of view::

My primary interest as a writer is how people interact, so my stuff's character driven instead of plot driven.  I just started experimenting with the "relationfic" sort of writing this year, and its something I was previously very disdainful of.  A "relationfic" that's got some other sort of meat to it isn't so bad.  But if its just butterfly kisses and gooey fluff?  Not so much.

Modifié par Tellervo, 11 novembre 2010 - 01:10 .

[Sarah1281]

Wait.. there's an FFadult.net? And if I'm too reserved to even type in the url to even see if it's actually true, odds are I don't want to go there, huh?

*is surprisingly not too big of a prude to have been there* Adultfanfiction.net can be a very...embarrassing place at times. Fortunately, it tells you before you even click on the story what kinks you can expect to find there. Surprisingly, some of the stories do have plots although my experience has been that it's mostly just gratuitous sex.

[Maria Caliban]

jackkel dragon wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

2,000+ of porn, 800 of regular ff.

what is this i dont even

Oh my, I realize how I might be misunderstood. I was talking about my *word count* for yesterday.

I wrote 2,000 words for a smut story, and 800 words for a regular fan fic. I'm an abysmally slow writer, so this is really, really good for me.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

[Sex] scenes can be full of awesome. I don't mean the action, but the way the author can use them for character development. [Sex] scenes that are just 'Random Encounter' action that result in nothing but ****ing and *** I find dull myself, but there's a kind of atmosphere in [sex] that can open all sorts of doors for character thoughts, reactions, emotions, that's hard to reproduce in other situations.

Edited to reflect my thoughts on another subject.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 11 novembre 2010 - 01:17 .

[nefand]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Wait.. there's an FFadult.net? And if I'm too reserved to even type in the url to even see if it's actually true, odds are I don't want to go there, huh?

*is surprisingly not too big of a prude to have been there* Adultfanfiction.net can be a very...embarrassing place at times. Fortunately, it tells you before you even click on the story what kinks you can expect to find there. Surprisingly, some of the stories do have plots although my experience has been that it's mostly just gratuitous sex.

Well, maybe prude is too strong of a word. I dunno. 

There was a time in my life when I would have devoured that kind of content, I think, but now... meh.  I think it's too easy to write "insert Tab A into Slot A" style sex scenes; I mean, honestly, anybody can do that.  Throwing a fetish into it (which is what I assume people mean with 'kink meme') is equally meh to me, but then again, I ran in those circles during my 20's and saw it, so reading about it just doesn't appeal to me.

But maybe that's part of it for other people, I guess?  For the reader who is too reserved IRL to indulge their curiosities, reading it in fiction is the outlet.  For someone, such as myself, who finds just the opposite... I blush at reading it, but had (have) no qualms about engaging in some of it?

Bleh.  I just had that ephiphany, actually.  And I've probably overshared.

As for the writing, I think it's much more interesting - and much more of a challenge - to write the sex in an emotive or humorous context that emphasizes the characters relating to each other.  I find that's what I enjoy reading, as well.

[Maria Caliban]

nefand wrote...

I think it's too easy to write "insert Tab A into Slot A" style sex scenes; I mean, honestly, anybody can do that.  Throwing a fetish into it (which is what I assume people mean with 'kink meme') is equally meh to me, but then again, I ran in those circles during my 20's and saw it, so reading about it just doesn't appeal to me.

1. Please don't assume that because you find something easy to write, every finds it easy to write.

2. Kink-meme content tends to be... mild. Unless you consider homosexuality or group sex a fetish, I'd say the majority of the content is vanilla.

nefand wrote...

For the reader who is too reserved IRL to indulge their curiosities, reading it in fiction is the outlet.  For someone, such as myself, who finds just the opposite... I blush at reading it, but had (have) no qualms about engaging in some of it?

No.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 11 novembre 2010 - 01:38 .

[Addai]

Battle scenes are really hard to write. I noticed in Song of Ice and Fire what he often did for big battles was show a couple personal vignettes, tell you who won, and then only in later chapters or even the next volume do you find out the details of what happened as other characters tell their stories.

Like others, I'm looking for character stuff in both sex and fight scenes. That's what interests me most and I'm not going to write them unless something character-wise is going on.

As for why people like what they like, I refuse to take any of this too seriously.  So for whatever reason people write, read or review what they do, I'm just glad it's fun for them. If people are skipping ahead to the dirty bits, more power to 'em. LOL Though in my case they'll probably be disappointed.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 novembre 2010 - 01:35 .

[Creature 1]

nefand wrote...

There was a time in my life when I would have devoured that kind of content, I think, but now... meh.  I think it's too easy to write "insert Tab A into Slot A" style sex scenes; I mean, honestly, anybody can do that.  

Not sure what you mean.  No, not everyone can write sex scenes.  In fact, most people cannot.  Anyone can describe sex, but getting the reader to react in the intended way is not so easy.  I've read descriptions of sex that made me laugh so hard I cried, and that was not the author's intent.  So no, writing sex scenes that are even mostly just about the physical aspect of it is not something everyone can do.  

Throwing a fetish into it (which is what I assume people mean with 'kink meme') is equally meh to me, but then again, I ran in those circles during my 20's and saw it, so reading about it just doesn't appeal to me.

No, kink meme is mostly vanilla.  

As for the writing, I think it's much more interesting - and much more of a challenge - to write the sex in an emotive or humorous context that emphasizes the characters relating to each other.  I find that's what I enjoy reading, as well.

These fics are very hard to write (unless you're one of a few gifted people whom we appreciate greatly! ), more often attempted than fics just about the physical aspect, and also can be found on DA kink memes.  

[inquartata02]

I can't write sex scenes to save my life, so I just... don't. Well, except for this one time when I lost a bet and had to write one. That remains the only one I've ever written, and most likely, ever will. (Word of caution: never make a bet with a friend who has a warped, twisted sense of humor and knows about your writing hang-ups. Ever.)

Maria Caliban wrote...I'm doing well on my new fiction.

Oh, okay. Do you usually pull all your old stories off your account when you start a new fic? I'm just confused. My eyes literally went like this: o_O when I read the post, hence the question.

[Addai]

The kink memes do very little for me, either. Not only do they focus on the weird too much (I'm sure there's vanilla, too, but you have to wade), I just don't care to read that kind of stuff disembodied from a larger story. Don't care about the characters, so it's boring to me. But as I said above, to each her own.

[Maria Caliban]

inquartata02 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...I'm doing well on my new fiction.

Oh, okay. Do you usually pull all your old stories off your account when you start a new fic? I'm just confused. My eyes literally went like this: o_O when I read the post, hence the question.

I usually pull down everything I have every three to six months. I like the feeling that I'm starting 'fresh.'

[Gilgamesh1138]

MARIA!!!! *HUGS tight*



@Shadow, I agree, I wrote the one I did so I could get the practice in. I wanted to visualize the fight and write it. My betas (who will put their boots to my backside) told me me it was not boring. I prefer the fights to do character development too, but sometimes you need the fight. This was also more to establish my character's fighting style and her use of strategy and tactics ( in a fun and humorous manner, I hope).

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

Battle scenes are really hard to write. I noticed in Song of Ice and Fire what he often did for big battles was show a couple personal vignettes, tell you who won, and then only in later chapters or even the next volume do you find out the details of what happened as other characters tell their stories.

Like others, I'm looking for character stuff in both sex and fight scenes. That's what interests me most and I'm not going to write them unless something character-wise is going on.

I have trouble writing sex and fight scenes, too.  Ironically, I had two fight scenes in my first DA fanfic, and they were the only fight scenes I've ever written.  I don't particularly like reading them either, the only one that I can recall really enjoying was in Peter. S. Beagle's, The Innkeeper's Song, and it's not so much the fighting as the story that gets told within it.  Plus, Beagle could probably write about anything and I would enjoy it.

I just find sex scenes a bit awkward to write, plus I'm not keen on inviting homophobic responses, so I've avoided any explicit scenes.  I've been pleasantly surprised not to receive any negative comments here or on ff on that count, but it might be partly because I don't have that many readers.

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

Battle scenes are really hard to write. I noticed in Song of Ice and Fire what he often did for big battles was show a couple personal vignettes, tell you who won, and then only in later chapters or even the next volume do you find out the details of what happened as other characters tell their stories.

Part of that too is that like most modern writers, Martin doesn't write from an objective 3rd person perspective, and it's hard to describe an entire battle from a single point of view.  Personally, I think you can achieve a greater emotional effect by writing a particular person's experience anyway..

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

*returns at lunch time*

Yes, I realise what I wrote before could apply to sex scenes as well. Having never written a sex scene, however, I didn't feel 'qualified' to say as much. From a reader's perspective, though, I agree.

On the relationships front...

Relationships! I like relationships! They are complex and give rise to a plethora of human emotion from blissful happiness to jealous rage. And female readers especially, I suspect, are suckers for relationship stories.

You need look no further than Mills & Boon, a prolific publisher of romance novels that are so popular they get their own entire SECTION in bookshops. Here's one critical opinion of them as shown on wiki (re: something nefand said before):

The company has been criticised for repeating plots, the inevitability of their happy endings, and a simple writing style, while fans have cited predictability as a key reason for reading.

Yep, as nefand said above, a large majority of readers don't care about thinking in stories, they just want an easy read with tingles thrown in. But this is not surprising to me. Sex sells, as they say.

I don't mind teh sexytimes in DA fanfics, but a story that is just a page of pr0n with a couple of DA names thrown in so we know who's boinking who is not my idea of a Good Time. And I confess I tend to secretly sneer at these kinds of stories as not being fan fiction, but just two faceless sexbots with nametags.

But does it surprise me that they're so popular? Not at all. Does it *annoy* me that they're popular? Eh. I do find it disheartening at times that readers gravitate to stories like that, but the romance/Mills & Boon section in ye olde bookshops are bigger than the Fantasy section (which is sadly supplemented by Sci Fi because some people can't tell the difference), so it goes without saying that smut and romance fics (even badly written ones) will garner more interest than general fantasy.

That's the world we live in. A world of darkspawn, political plots, and hot sex in the Deep Roads.

[Gilgamesh1138]

@Shadow, yeah I was just disheartened. I know sex sells. I shouldn't take it hard, just a low day today I suppose. A weak moment. I continue to get a nice hit on the stats, so people may not be reviewing, but it looks like they are reading.  So I will shut up and pull up my big girl armor pants and stop whining. :blush:

Modifié par Gilgamesh1138, 11 novembre 2010 - 02:18 .

[soignee]

Sex indeed sells, and while this game has sex appeal by the bucket it also, has other elements like lore and such that suckered me in.



I would be articulate, but I've been playing Titan Quest all night like an adult should >.>.

[Maria Caliban]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

The company has been criticised for repeating plots, the inevitability of their happy endings, and a simple writing style, while fans have cited predictability as a key reason for reading.

Yep, as nefand said above, a large majority of readers don't care about thinking in stories, they just want an easy read with tingles thrown in. But this is not surprising to me. Sex sells, as they say.

Interesting.

I could say that video games have repeating plots, inevitably happy endings, and a simple writing style. Robert Ebert said that games have no artistic value and don't have a story inasmuch as prolonged scenes of violence.

Would you agree that people who play video games 'don't care much about thinking'?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 11 novembre 2010 - 02:51 .