10369 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Yep, as nefand said above, a large majority of readers don't care about thinking in stories, they just want an easy read with tingles thrown in. But this is not surprising to me. Sex sells, as they say.

I don't mind teh sexytimes in DA fanfics, but a story that is just a page of pr0n with a couple of DA names thrown in so we know who's boinking who is not my idea of a Good Time.

That's a good description of what I don't care for, either, as well as the implausibility to a lot of the setups.  I get what others are saying, though, that writing a good erotic scene is actually very difficult.  Good writers can make it hot with just a few lines more of suggestion than description- IMO anyway.

Back to fighting, I was one of those who liked Maria13's provings chapter.  Love a good duel!

Modifié par Addai67, 11 novembre 2010 - 03:50 .

[Corker]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

The company has been criticised for repeating plots, the inevitability of their happy endings, and a simple writing style, while fans have cited predictability as a key reason for reading.

Yep, as nefand said above, a large majority of readers don't care about thinking in stories, they just want an easy read with tingles thrown in. But this is not surprising to me. Sex sells, as they say.

Interesting.

I could say that video games have repeating plots, inevitably happy endings, and a simple writing style. Robert Ebert said that games have no artistic value and don't have a story inasmuch as prolonged scenes of violence.

Would you agree that people who play video games 'don't care much about thinking'?

I would agree that when I'm playing a video game, I'm not thinking much.

I'm thinking less than when I'm writing (even if it's about the video game), less than if I were running or playing in a tabletop RPG, and less than if I were working through a history book.  (I *am* being asked to think more than the light adventure flicks I favor as movies.) 

Once the character is made, I am not being asked to create, innovate or problem-solve.  I am being asked to listen, pay attention, and pick the one of six dialogue options that looks the most interesting or most attractive to my character.  It's not especially heavy mental lifting for me.  

Now, surrounding the game, we have this fine fan community which likes to analyze the game, reconstruct it, extend and expand upon it: essentially, to create, innovate and problem-solve.  Plenty of thinking going on.  But gameplay itself... well, not for me, anyway.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Gil, I wasn't trying to aim anything at you, so I'm sorry if it came across that way. It was just me tossing out opinions.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

The company has been criticised for repeating plots, the inevitability of their happy endings, and a simple writing style, while fans have cited predictability as a key reason for reading.

Yep, as nefand said above, a large majority of readers don't care about thinking in stories, they just want an easy read with tingles thrown in. But this is not surprising to me. Sex sells, as they say.

Interesting.

I could say that video games have repeating plots, inevitably happy endings, and a simple writing style. Robert Ebert said that games have no artistic value and don't have a story inasmuch as prolonged scenes of violence.

Would you agree that people who play video games 'don't care much about thinking'?

I don't like generalisations (hence I said a large majority of readers, not ALL readers). So no, I don't agree that ALL people who play video games 'don't care much about thinking'.

There are gamers who read all the codex entries and go through the toolset to learn the nuances of character dialogue, there are the gamers who do the maths on attack skills and twink builds. Then there are those who just go from point A to point B until the game ends. *shrug*

Edit: Oh wait, are we comparing video games to computer games?

Edit 2: Some games are deliberately made as no-brainers (like Diablo!), and I enjoy playing these when I don't want to have to pay attention to a storyline and just want to wind down by mindlessly killing things, which is the kind of video game Robert Ebert is probably referring to.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 11 novembre 2010 - 07:45 .

[Gilgamesh1138]

@Shadow I didn't take it that way at all! Don't mind me, like I said, ****y day. *HUGS* And I agree with you and Corker, there are all types. My husband has game play OCD. He tweaks his character's stats and armor and weapons. That is his vice. Mine is the codexes, and I treat DA:O as a book that I am playing.

[mousestalker]

I have a filthy mind and a foul tongue but I try not show them in public. The same applies to smut. Generally, the adult material I've written have been more in the way of trying to see if I can rather than to scratch a personal itch. As I've mentioned before, my pr0n has been fairly well received. Some would probably call it vanilla, but it's all rather out there for me.

The same actually applies to most of what I write. I'm writing to develop skills, which means moving away from my comfort zone and writing things that I normally wouldn't. I haven't finished Gilga's battle scene (real life intervened) but I admire it greatly for what I have read so far.

What I like in fiction are character driven stories that move. My heroine is Jane Austen, which is setting the bar high, but there you are. What I write are stereotypical Mary Sues in tired plots with wooden dialogue. And typos. Which leads to periodic bouts of depression and self loathing. I'd like to move past that, both the depression and the hack writing.

Relationship fiction gets readers as it is what fanfic readers want. The question is whether we write what readers want or write for some other reason.

Modifié par mousestalker, 11 novembre 2010 - 03:35 .

[Creature 1]

Seriously if I'm looking for "complex characterization and plot design", I do not hit FF.net.  I pull out, say, Anthony Trollope.  (And I guess some here would give him concrit, because his stories frequently are plagued by happy endings.)  I'm sure some of you who write fanfic do it very well, but it really makes me laugh to see fanfic authors talk about fanfic writing as if it is some high intellectual pursuit.  DA is not a high-brow work of art, I don't really see derivative works soaring much higher.  If your writing is that good, you should be writing original fiction so you'll have a chance at making a lasting contribution to literature.  

[Gilgamesh1138]

OMG! Thanks Moustalker! I too write the p0rn as a get out of my comfort zone, and it is for my characters as people. Adults have sex, so my characters do. Mine is probably vanilla too. I write it with more to your imagination so I can keep it T rated.



The battle scenes I am writing, for my character, but also because I have never been comfortable writing them. So I was trying to move out of my comfort zone and challenge myself as a writer.



Again, thank for trying to read it (silly RL). *HUGS*

[Gilgamesh1138]

Creature, I would disagree. There is plenty of dreck in the bookstores. ****e that got published, who knows how, but it did. Having your stuff published and sold is not proof of high intellectual pursuit. As to fanfic, I have been using it to hone my mind, my writing skills, and to apprentice shall we say. I have read really great fanfic, some that is so much better than crap I have read from a published author. And it is high intellectual pursuit if you are willing to do research, think about how things really work and write it so that others find it entertaining. So yes, it is high intellectual pursuit. And I now (thanks to fanfiction writing breaking my 15 year hiatus from writing) have an idea for a story which I hope to write into a book and publish. But I wouldn't have gotten to that point without fanfiction, my own, and reading the really excellent works by some of the authors here.

[Sarah1281]

Creature 1 wrote...

Seriously if I'm looking for "complex characterization and plot design", I do not hit FF.net.  I pull out, say, Anthony Trollope.  (And I guess some here would give him concrit, because his stories frequently are plagued by happy endings.)  I'm sure some of you who write fanfic do it very well, but it really makes me laugh to see fanfic authors talk about fanfic writing as if it is some high intellectual pursuit.  DA is not a high-brow work of art, I don't really see derivative works soaring much higher.  If your writing is that good, you should be writing original fiction so you'll have a chance at making a lasting contribution to literature.  

I find this offensive. If you aren't looking for "complex characterization and plot design" in fanfiction, then I guess you won't be reading the kind of fanfiction that has that (and there are plenty that do). I haven't seen anyone here complaining about happy endings or being elitist. The gist seems to be 'I dislike it when stories that suck get more attention than stories that don't suck. These stories that suck are often painful romances or outright porn.' Why is it "laughable" to wish that quality and attention went hand in hand? Why are fanfiction writers not allowed to put serious effort into what they do and take their work seriously? Why do people have to be so dismissive and tell us to go write a book? There are lots of reasons people don't. Maybe they simply don't want to, maybe they are published authors, maybe something in a certain series inspired them and they have a story to tell about the characters, maybe they're trying to improve their writing, maybe they're working towards getting published.

If anyone's being judgmental here, I find it to be your outright dismissal of fanfiction writers.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 11 novembre 2010 - 04:07 .

[Gilgamesh1138]

Brava Sarah! You said what I was trying to, in articulately.



And if being published is the gauge of how good a writer I am...well I have been already...thank you very much. Doesn't mean much as I stopped for 15 years.

[inquartata02]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 I find this offensive. If you aren't looking for "complex characterization and plot design" in fanfiction, then I guess you won't be reading the kind of fanfiction that has that (and there are plenty that do). I haven't seen anyone here complaining about happy endings or being elitist. The gist seems to be 'I dislike it when stories that suck get more attention than stories that don't suck. These stories that suck are often painful romances or outright porn.' Why is it "laughable" to wish that quality and attention went hand in hand? Why are fanfiction writers not allowed to put serious effort into what they do and take their work seriously? Why do people have to be so dismissive and tell us to go write a book? There are lots of reasons people don't. Maybe they simply don't want to, maybe they are published authors, maybe something in a certain series inspired them and they have a story to tell about the characters, maybe they're trying to improve their writing, maybe they're working towards getting published. 

If anyone's being judgmental here, I find it to be your outright dismissal of fanfiction writers.

I entirely agree. 

I write original fic and use fanfiction as both an outlet for random ideas associated with a fandom (DA the most recent for me) and for working on stuff that I need to improve for my original stuff. Does this mean I somehow slack off when writing FF? No. Sure, it's fanfic and not high literature, but if you care about what you write, it'll show. A good story is a good story, no matter its form (fanfic, published, or unpublished original fic). 

My recent foray into fanfiction (after a years long break and from another fandom entirely) was to work mostly on one thing: being able to properly present and write a 19-20 year old male (as I am not a 19-20 year old male nor was I ever a 19-20 year old male). If I can pull it off with a fanfic, I can extrapolate that to my original fic, and it's easier to work in an environment you're already familiar with, as well. Less world-development, in a way, and most of the characters you're working with (in general), are already familiar to your audience. So anything you do that's original within the work will be more... apparent, I guess, and more easily picked up on. Hell, it took me about seven or eight chapters to settle into the work itself and actually allow myself to experiment (part of me wants to go back and rewrite, but I'll just live with it and let it stand as it is. You can't fix everything and it's been long-released by now). 

And I think my last foray did help me with what I was working on: more than one reviewer assumed I was a guy. I LOL'ed. 

Anyway, just because it's fanfiction doesn't mean it has to be bad, nor can one not expect something good. And once I'm done playing DA and have read both DA books, and yet still want to read/experience some more in the DA world, off to fanfiction I go.

[nefand]

Maria Caliban wrote...

nefand wrote...

I think it's too easy to write "insert Tab A into Slot A" style sex scenes; I mean, honestly, anybody can do that.  Throwing a fetish into it (which is what I assume people mean with 'kink meme') is equally meh to me, but then again, I ran in those circles during my 20's and saw it, so reading about it just doesn't appeal to me.

1. Please don't assume that because you find something easy to write, every finds it easy to write.

2. Kink-meme content tends to be... mild. Unless you consider homosexuality or group sex a fetish, I'd say the majority of the content is vanilla.

nefand wrote...

For the reader who is too reserved IRL to indulge their curiosities, reading it in fiction is the outlet.  For someone, such as myself, who finds just the opposite... I blush at reading it, but had (have) no qualms about engaging in some of it?

No.

1) My inference is based on the general discussion that a) said content is perceived by the writers to be the most popular, based on tracking and feedback; and  said content is perceived to be most common, based on available material in the genre.  The availability of a thing for mass consumption thus implies that said thing is more easily produced by a larger volume of people, and the larger number of people able to produce said thing also implies that a broader skill set can be utilized to produce said content.

Thus my statement of "Tab A into Slot A" material being easier to produce is not a dig at any individual or group of individuals, but simply a broad conclusion based on a number of broad statements made in a general context.

Without any available data to measure the question in a specific context, the reality is we simply do not know the answer to the question either way, assuming we have even adequately defined the question to begin with.

2) I was actually thinking of other fetishistic behavior, so thank you for the clarification.  Though I do find the label "kink meme" to be misleading, if everyone is describing the content as vanilla... or the definition of what constitutes vanilla has changed in the last decade.

Or possibly a combination of both.

3) Given that entertainment is generally regarded as escapist material in all mediums, I find it interesting that my statement implying that members of the reader base may be using [insert sex meme here] fiction as escapist material, or otherwise as an emotional/imaginitive/psychological outlet for behavior that they may be unwilling to engage in IRL, is so readily dismissed.

While I cannot say that 100% of the readership does this, on the counterpoint you cannot say that 100% of the readership does not.  And again, without a collection of data specific to the question(s) at hand, neither of us can give any hard and fast numbers regarding the readership's behavior other than to reasonably postulate that variable X  will engage in the behavior and variable Y will not.

[Addai]

Creature 1 wrote...

Seriously if I'm looking for "complex characterization and plot design", I do not hit FF.net.  I pull out, say, Anthony Trollope.  (And I guess some here would give him concrit, because his stories frequently are plagued by happy endings.)  I'm sure some of you who write fanfic do it very well, but it really makes me laugh to see fanfic authors talk about fanfic writing as if it is some high intellectual pursuit.  DA is not a high-brow work of art, I don't really see derivative works soaring much higher.  If your writing is that good, you should be writing original fiction so you'll have a chance at making a lasting contribution to literature.  

Heh, well like I said up above, I for one don't take it seriously.  Does anyone?  Not sure where these comments are coming from, actually.  Weren't you just saying that it's not easy to write smut, etc.?  Or are you taking issue with those of us who like other kinds of writing better?  Or just feeling snarky?

It's a creative outlet, and has a fun community aspect that other writing doesn't.  Plus it's free on the internet so you take it for what it is.  Good stories don't need to be a high intellectual pursuit anyway.  Sitting around a campfire saying "have you heard this one" has its own appeal.

[nefand]

Creature 1 wrote...

Seriously if I'm looking for "complex characterization and plot design", I do not hit FF.net.  I pull out, say, Anthony Trollope.  (And I guess some here would give him concrit, because his stories frequently are plagued by happy endings.)  I'm sure some of you who write fanfic do it very well, but it really makes me laugh to see fanfic authors talk about fanfic writing as if it is some high intellectual pursuit.  DA is not a high-brow work of art, I don't really see derivative works soaring much higher.  If your writing is that good, you should be writing original fiction so you'll have a chance at making a lasting contribution to literature.  

(Mom, is that you?)

Here's how I describe FF.net to people who have no idea what it is... the site is a bucket of coal, and every once in a while you find a diamond.

There are DEFINITELY some diamonds on FF.net, and I have to say that many of them are written by people who show up in this thread.  Now that may be entirely coincidential or not; personally I think it has something to do with the fact that people who read and post here are the types who enjoy writing, enjoy discusing the subject of writing, enjoy the material, and aren't afraid to banter ideas with each other in the pursuit of better understanding and improving their writing skills.

TLDR: they take an active interest in the community, and thus it is reflected in their writing as they grow artistically.

Furthermore, modern entertainment is changing, and there is a healthy market for individuals working within established IP to expand the franchise.  The video game industry is the most obvious example of where this is applicable; one only has to look at the marketing line up of Blizzard entertainment to see how far a successful game franchise can be extended, and they two key components of this are artists and WRITERS.

Game lore, expansions, novels, comics, cartoons, web content, and whatever else is coming down the pipe... there is HUGE potential there.

What people here are doing is akin to pioneering this territory.  Fanfiction in general is good business for companies like BioWare:  they get to scout potential talent, assess the viability of a franchise based on fan participation, and watch for marketable trends.

The second aspect is that a writer can comfortably practice their skills and try new/different writing techniques in established IP that they may not be able to do in original work.  Several people have said just in the last page or two that they use aspects of the genre to push themselves out of their comfort zone when writing, in an effort to improve.

That's a tremendous effort for writers to undertake, and entirely commendable.  That they can take on those challenges in content that they are comfortable with AND which they enjoy is even better; why would you want to belittle that?

Third, nobody creates new stuff in a vacuum.  Somebody's Grey Warden today may give rise to a new hot IP tomorrow, because that's how creativity works.  Ideas generate ideas, because you stimulate the areas of the brain involved in imagination and creativity.

Besides, where else am I going to go to debate pRon fixes and to get yelled at for making broad assumptions and allowed to nerd out about linguistic purity with people who understand, huh?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

*hugs Gil back*

Addai67 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Yep, as nefand said above, a large majority of readers don't care about thinking in stories, they just want an easy read with tingles thrown in. But this is not surprising to me. Sex sells, as they say.

I don't mind teh sexytimes in DA fanfics, but a story that is just a page of pr0n with a couple of DA names thrown in so we know who's boinking who is not my idea of a Good Time.

That's a good description of what I don't care for, either, as well as the implausibility to a lot of the setups.  i get what others are saying, though, that writing a good erotic scene is actually very difficult.  Good writers can make it hot with just a few lines more of suggestion than description- IMO anyway.

Well, I've seen it done well both ways. I'm not going to say explicit detailed sex scenes are any more/less hot than a few well-chosen lines, since that's all in the eyes of the reader and I admire the talent that's required to execute either technique. One day maybe I'll be brave enough to try writing smut myself, heh.

But my main point is that it's fanfiction (smut or no smut), so I tend to have a great deal more respect for the writers who try to give the DA characters (and Wardens) their personalities, or something more than just their name, even if it's on the kmeme. I kinda thought that's what fanfiction was meant to be, but maybe I'm just stuck in my own personal definition of the term. :/

Creature 1 wrote...

If your writing is that good, you should be writing original fiction so you'll have a chance at making a lasting contribution to literature.  

Should we? For some of us it's a leisure activity, and we enjoy playing in someone else's sandpit. Not everyone writes fanfic because they can't write or haven't written an original novel.

At the end of the day...whether it's fanfic or original, I'm writing for my own enjoyment and the enjoyment of others. Hopefully everyone else can say something similar. What you do or how you do it won't appeal to *all*, everyone has tastes and turn-offs and 'standards', but art always finds an audience. Fanfic might not be a lasting contribution to literature as you put it, but if you think it can't influence and inspire then you're wrong.

I think everyone else has already covered the rest in terms of a suitable reply.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 11 novembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[Maria13]

There are some really literate and reasoned exchanges here which I think at the end of the day show that writing ff is an intellectual pursuit that demands discipline and practice. 

I suppose we could compare it to graphic art, are artists who deal with lighter subjects less talented? Is an artist who depicts a crucifixion scene unoriginal? I think the reply should be 'no' on both counts.  In fact many artists who started on the lighter then move on to the darker, Goya, springs to mind... The important thing is developing a skill. And it doesn't matter if you move on or not, so long  as what you are doing is challenging and fullfilling and most of us here find that FF is just that. My father was a graphic artist who towards the end of his life became very embittered that he could not make a living out of his original work.  Hopefully I shall try and avoid the same mistake because it is literally heartbreaking to witness.

Speaking personally for me it's been an icebreaker, I've always wanted to write fiction but never really dared.  FF has provided me with a safe environment in which to begin to do so, I might move on, I might not.  I'm just happy I got here with so many interesting people dedicated to the same pursuit.

For me porn and fighting scenes are just like anything else, it's a challenge to do right and there are limitless ways in which it can be done right and wrong, it's a question of exploration.

Finally, sometimes I hate being European and missing awesome discussions like this...

[Raonar]

Trust me, you're not the only dejected European here. I woke up to find almost three new pages ... made even more annoying by the fact that I'm at work and can't really spend enough time to read through it all. I did skim, of course, but still...

Modifié par Raonar, 11 novembre 2010 - 10:30 .

[mousestalker]

Y'all, Creature1 has made his disapprobation of fanfic plain before. I question his judgment in coming to an area of the forum devoted to community creations. But he is within his rights to post provocative posts if he so chooses, de gustibus and all that.



Just remember that someone is wrong on the internet.

[mousestalker]

On a more serious note, I'm working through various literary forms. I've recently done some haikus. I'm mulling over committing sonnetry. I have committed balladry in my recent past. It's all part of stretching and improving my authorial muscles. Maria13 hit the nail on the head when she discussed artists in that regard.

[Maria13]

mousestalker wrote...

On a more serious note, I'm working through various literary forms. I've recently done some haikus. I'm mulling over committing sonnetry. I have committed balladry in my recent past. It's all part of stretching and improving my authorial muscles. Maria13 hit the nail on the head when she discussed artists in that regard.

I do like that committing sonnetry... Poetry being today more reprehensible than porn...

[Creature 1]

mousestalker wrote...

Y'all, Creature1 has made his disapprobation of fanfic plain before. I question his judgment in coming to an area of the forum devoted to community creations. But he is within his rights to post provocative posts if he so chooses, de gustibus and all that.

I have?  That's quite curious, considering that I write it, and it's been my major hobby project for the last year.  

Just remember that someone is wrong on the internet.

This is so very true. 

[Creature 1]

Addai67 wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Seriously if I'm looking for "complex characterization and plot design", I do not hit FF.net.  I pull out, say, Anthony Trollope.  (And I guess some here would give him concrit, because his stories frequently are plagued by happy endings.)  I'm sure some of you who write fanfic do it very well, but it really makes me laugh to see fanfic authors talk about fanfic writing as if it is some high intellectual pursuit.  DA is not a high-brow work of art, I don't really see derivative works soaring much higher.  If your writing is that good, you should be writing original fiction so you'll have a chance at making a lasting contribution to literature.  

Heh, well like I said up above, I for one don't take it seriously.  Does anyone?  Not sure where these comments are coming from, actually.  Weren't you just saying that it's not easy to write smut, etc.?  Or are you taking issue with those of us who like other kinds of writing better?  Or just feeling snarky?

It's a creative outlet, and has a fun community aspect that other writing doesn't.  Plus it's free on the internet so you take it for what it is.  Good stories don't need to be a high intellectual pursuit anyway.  Sitting around a campfire saying "have you heard this one" has its own appeal.

Yes.  Some fanfiction authors in this thread appear to take it very seriously.  No, it is not easy to write smut.  No, I don't care what you write or read.  Yes, I was feeling snarky.   Yes, story-writing does not have to be a high intellectual pursuit to be fun--that's kind of my point. 

To those who say, "People don't read my story because it doesn't have a quick payoff, but requires them to return to read it long-term," great.  Keep writing, don't worry about the audience size (this is what I do). 

To those who say, "People don't read my story because it's a work of literature and the unwashed masses are not mentally equipped to process it," well, don't forget FF.net is the Pit of Voles.  An amethyst may stand out in a gravel pit, but that doesn't make it a diamond. 

[Creature 1]

Gilgamesh1138 wrote...

Creature, I would disagree. There is plenty of dreck in the bookstores. ****e that got published, who knows how, but it did. Having your stuff published and sold is not proof of high intellectual pursuit.

Oh, certainly not, but people who write really well are likely to go to original fiction, because they can build their own world instead of working within the confines of someone else's, make a lasting contribution to lit, and also make some money, hopefully gobs of it. 

As to fanfic, I have been using it to hone my mind, my writing skills, and to apprentice shall we say. I have read really great fanfic, some that is so much better than crap I have read from a published author. And it is high intellectual pursuit if you are willing to do research, think about how things really work and write it so that others find it entertaining. So yes, it is high intellectual pursuit. And I now (thanks to fanfiction writing breaking my 15 year hiatus from writing) have an idea for a story which I hope to write into a book and publish. But I wouldn't have gotten to that point without fanfiction, my own, and reading the really excellent works by some of the authors here.

I wrote my post because I took offense at certain elitist comments (but nothing you said).  If you are writing anything, original or fanfiction, you should try to write something that's entertaining, well-constructed, and internally consistent.  But succeeding at these things does not automatically make you a great artist, it makes you competent.  (That's great, I would be proud to be able to say my fanfiction is competently written, most of the time I feel I'm adequate at best.  )  But achieving competence doesn't give a person license to look down on those who write in other fanfiction niches (many times competent in their area) or the audience members who prefer to read something that requires less time investment. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Creature 1 wrote...

I wrote my post because I took offense at certain elitist comments (but nothing you said).  If you are writing anything, original or fanfiction, you should try to write something that's entertaining, well-constructed, and internally consistent.  But succeeding at these things does not automatically make you a great artist, it makes you competent.  (That's great, I would be proud to be able to say my fanfiction is competently written, most of the time I feel I'm adequate at best.  )  But achieving competence doesn't give a person license to look down on those who write in other fanfiction niches (many times competent in their area) or the audience members who prefer to read something that requires less time investment. 

Wait, does this mean I have to stop looking down on Twilight and poking fun at its bajillions of fans? :/

Seriously though, it might not give anyone the right as you said, but it's going to happen whether or not people are competent, incompentent or even professional writers. Mocking those who have annoyed you (and apparently offending others in the thread while you're at it) won't change this.

[LupusYondergirl]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

I wrote my post because I took offense at certain elitist comments (but nothing you said).  If you are writing anything, original or fanfiction, you should try to write something that's entertaining, well-constructed, and internally consistent.  But succeeding at these things does not automatically make you a great artist, it makes you competent.  (That's great, I would be proud to be able to say my fanfiction is competently written, most of the time I feel I'm adequate at best.  )  But achieving competence doesn't give a person license to look down on those who write in other fanfiction niches (many times competent in their area) or the audience members who prefer to read something that requires less time investment. 

Wait, does this mean I have to stop looking down on Twilight and poking fun at its bajillions of fans? :/

Seriously though, it might not give anyone the right as you said, but it's going to happen whether or not people are competent, incompentent or even professional writers. Mocking those who have annoyed you (and apparently offending others in the thread while you're at it) won't change this.

I don't think that's what he meant in the least... unless Stephanie Myer is a poster here suddenly.

This thread really devolved into a giant "doesn't romance based fic suck? aren't we better!" circle jerk for a while there.  I suspect I'll be lisping if I get called on in class today because of how damn hard I was biting my tongue the entire time, conidering my joking comment at the begining to remind people that some of us DO write 'relationship fics' (and the others who came after me to make similar comments) were all summarily ignored to continue the pile on.  It really didn't come across as critique of specific stories one might consider poorly-written, it came across as a very harsh critique of the subgenre as a whole, with a good portion of insults towards anyone who read it and wrote it added for good measure.

Someone actually called out a fic by title and author to say what a good romance fic it was but still inherantly not for "thinking men" only because it's a romance fic.  What kind of catty BS is that?  Christ, it's all ****ing fanfic, how is one variety suddenly the domain of high minded intellectuals while another that of the drooling unwashed?

So let's not pretend everyone spent their evening looking down on Twilight here... it was spent looking down on plenty of their fellow DA fanfic writers and posters to this very thread.