10369 réponses à ce sujet

[nefand]

Creature 1 wrote...

Yes.  Some fanfiction authors in this thread appear to take it very seriously.  No, it is not easy to write smut.  No, I don't care what you write or read.  Yes, I was feeling snarky.   Yes, story-writing does not have to be a high intellectual pursuit to be fun--that's kind of my point. 

To those who say, "People don't read my story because it doesn't have a quick payoff, but requires them to return to read it long-term," great.  Keep writing, don't worry about the audience size (this is what I do). 

To those who say, "People don't read my story because it's a work of literature and the unwashed masses are not mentally equipped to process it," well, don't forget FF.net is the Pit of Voles.  An amethyst may stand out in a gravel pit, but that doesn't make it a diamond. 

Then don't take a shotgun approach at the entire forum and insult everybody; narrow your aim at your supposed-elitist target.

I WILL lament the "unwashed masses" as YOU so eloquently put it, and the reason for that is quite simple:  Every single person in this forum, and in this passtime, is at a different stage in their writing development.

We each have self-identified strengths and weaknesses with our writing styles that we work at.

The place where I'm at is not the place where you're at, which is not to say that one person is ahead or behind, above or below; if writing is a road, we are simply at different places on that road.

The writing techniques I am currently experimenting with have to do with foreshadowing and suspense, something similiar to Chekhov's gun (which I didn't realize had a name at the time I started, I just had a vision of this forward-rolling onion that I wanted to try and build, but lo and behold nothing is every really new, and lucky me for having a PhD in women's literature as a beta who can bring coach me on these intellectual nuances).

Now you have to understand my entry point into the FF genre 12 months ago was Dasque, Crisium, CJK, Lillith Morgana and NotLaura, a selection of (presumably) female writers within the DA content who consistently produce AMAZING fanfic.  I hadn't seen the other stuff at the point I started writing, but I remember thinking... holy crap, if THIS is the level of quality happening here, then maybe it's worth trying to write again.

Additionally, I made assumptions about the audience based on what I saw happening with those works, which I realize now was a niave thing to do.  I went into my project with a Field of Dreams mentality:  If I build it, they (the audience) would come.

But... that didn't quite happen.

About... oh I don't know, 10-12 chapters into EoG I realized something was wrong, because I wasn't getting the sort of feedback I hoped to get; specifically, nobody seemed to be picking up on the little foreshadowing seeds I was planting, or if they were, it wasn't getting mentioned.

So given my background and training IRL, and since I had this other nagging story idea that constituted much lighter fare, I decided to execute an unscientific experiment with a second story with an eye to the relationfic reader.  And suddenly... I had an audience in spades.

I drew multiple conclusions from that entire experience, one of which has to do with the sort of fare that the readership is actually looking to consume.  But what am I to do at this point, abandon the work I already started?

That's not really the sort of thing I'm prone to do.

So I will continue to write it, and see it though with as much quality as I can pour into the project, but my frustration will CONTINUE to be the audience, and I will continue to opine about how this or that little nugget that I am particularly fond of did not seem to get the appreciation I felt it deserved because I am  writer, and I get frustrated just like everybody else does.

But just because you - or anybody else - thinks that my frustrations or the way I express them are elitist does not invalidate that they are genuine frustrations for me that I want to get out, or that I still need to work through, or that someone else may share at the same time or may experience at some point in their writing career.

TLDR: don't use a sliver of a statement made on a public forum to judge the situation when you have no frackin' clue what the entire situation entails.

[soignee]

Well. This place got interesting.

My lulzy, offhand comment was initially posted from not a bad place as I thought the word unf unf was funny.

Because something is a popular genre, doesn't mean it's bad. I love Terry Pratchett, as an example, and he's a best seller here in the UK. Also fond of the Harry Dresden series, and have had people argue until they're blue in the face that it's bad and I should feel bad for liking it. I also love watching Skins, Gavin & Stacey and Merlin, all shows that have their vocal "but it's bad!" Support. Oh, and I work in fashion. People have Strong Views about my industry, and tell me I'm Bad And Should Feel Bad about that too. I don't like the Twilight franchise, though- I redeem myself, right?

 My point I am trying to make is that to some I'm sure I have the literary good taste that could feel a crisp packet, and what I like and produce doesn't overlap with most. My problem is not good romantic fiction, but where the characters are reduced to cardboard cutouts mashing their parts together. That was my initial "lolwut."

I would say we're all doing this for the lulz and who cares, but I can count regulars (myself included) on this thread and people on my BSN friend page where writing really, really is like wringing blood from a stone and all this talk of errant muses and dried up inspiration and lack of tuits to actually write is fairly common. When does it stop being fun and a burden? Eh.

Oh, and the romance genre has a tradition of being looked down at. "chick lit" is rather derogatory term, really. And I've read some, internets. I HAVE NO SHAME. NONE. Jackie Collins -especially her shoulder padded 80s stuff- is pure fun to read. Not gonna lie.

Modifié par soignee, 11 novembre 2010 - 01:58 .

[Herr Uhl]

soignee wrote...

I don't like the Twilight franchise, though- I redeem myself, right?

That is about as redeeming as being incredibly racist against Chinese people but liking Peking duck.

[LupusYondergirl]

@nefand : considering how utterly nasty you were about other authors getting the recognition you feel you deserve please drop the misunderstood victim BS.
It was you who said this, after all:

What boggle my mind to no end are the OBVIOUS Mary Sue relationfics that consistently get glowing reviews, even though the story is so horrendous the author should have their keyboard privileges revoked, their internet access terminated and Simon Cowell sent to their house to tell give a point by point explanation of all the reasons why they suck at writing, and for the love of humanity should never do it again.

That's not to say there aren't a few fantastic relationship fics, because there are; Cartography immediately comes to mind as a shining example of beautiful prose with a well-executed storyline that stayed true to the canon, and developed a believable Loghain/Cousland relationship. But those are few and far between, and for all its strengths I still wouldn't categorize it as a "thinking man's story", as it were; it was, ultimately, a WYSIWYG relationship fic, despite toying with some deeper concepts regarding internal power plays within the GW Order as part of the plot development.

But in the end I was glad to see it get lots of recognition, which I think was entirely deserved.

As for many of the other stories... eh, not so much.

I am forced to conclude that the majority of the readerbase is either incapable of appreciating complex characterization and plot design, or incapable of understanding it, or is simply there for don't-make-me-think escapist fare that makes them tingle betwixt their nethers.

The one romance fic you name gets some kind of messed up backhanded compliment where you still find a way to say it's for people who don't like to think? Charming, really.

I'm sorry you're frustrated with your readers, I'm sorry you don't get as many reviews as you'd like.
But please don't pretend you're being misunderstood and deny you were copping an elitist attitude. It's all right there on the previous page.

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 11 novembre 2010 - 02:13 .

[soignee]

Herr Uhl wrote...

soignee wrote...

I don't like the Twilight franchise, though- I redeem myself, right?

That is about as redeeming as being incredibly racist against Chinese people but liking Peking duck.

Excuse me please my literary tastes are clearly amazing. AMAZING.

*goes back to drawing Varric why listening to the new Rihanna album*

[mousestalker]

There's been a lot of wankery

against those who write spankery

They may be right about smut

and may say so, but,

They're sounding as if they're writing crankily.

[mousestalker]

Some of us love dipping

into relationshipping

while others whip

those who dip.

Let's all write something ripping.

[DreGregoire]

Hello peoples, I just got back from a vacation and am leaving on another one by the 19th although I've been reading some of my fav dragon age fanfic authors on my cell phone; tiny writing with eye strain but it was worth it. Now I have company so I'm afraid I won't be able to get into the swing of writing untill early December. Boo Hiss! That's life for you.



I hope everybody is doing well and busy writing. *hugz*

[Sialater]

Wow... glad I missed all the fun. Guess being busy at work has its bonuses.

[Creature 1]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Wait, does this mean I have to stop looking down on Twilight and poking fun at its bajillions of fans? :/

Not really.  I would say it means you can't universally declare that all vampire novels suck sight unseen, and that you shouldn't complain about Twilight stealing your readership because they aren't your audience anyway.  

Obviously everyone has noticed that since people here both read and write fanfiction, criticisms of other fanfiction authors and readers is likely to personally annoy multiple other people.  Criticizing Twilight specifically doesn't hurt Stephanie Meyer's feelings, but picking someone's fanfic here and running it down is likely to offend that author and anger their friends.  Sometimes what you have to say might be important enough to risk that (if Stephanie Meyers posted here I probably would still say I think it's harmful for girls to accept her notions of proper gender roles), but many times it's really not necessary or helpful to anyone.  And if you have a friend who likes Twilight you probably don't insult their intelligence, but skirt the topic of its literary value.  And then when it's not even criticism of a particular work but an entire genre. . .  

Seriously though, it might not give anyone the right as you said, but it's going to happen whether or not people are competent, incompentent or even professional writers. Mocking those who have annoyed you (and apparently offending others in the thread while you're at it) won't change this.

Yes, and I'm still going to respond when something someone says really irritates me.  This is what makes the internet go 'round.    But sorry to those innocent bystanders that I winged.  

[tartmuse]

mousestalker wrote...

There's been a lot of wankery
against those who write spankery
They may be right about smut
and may say so, but,
They're sounding as if they're writing crankily.

mousestalker wrote...

Some of us love dipping
into relationshipping
while others whip
those who dip.
Let's all write something ripping.

ROFL.  You...you so win, my friend. You win. 

[Creature 1]

nefand wrote...

Then don't take a shotgun approach at the entire forum and insult everybody; narrow your aim at your supposed-elitist target.

Ok:  That would be you. 

I drew multiple conclusions from that entire experience, one of which has to do with the sort of fare that the readership is actually looking to consume.

Going with the assumption that your writing does have literary merit, finding an audience is not dependent just on publishing something, but publishing it in the right forum.  Your audience is not at FF.net, or if it is only a small percentage of visitors belong to that audience.  Like I said earlier, if I'm looking for something literary, I don't go to FF.net.  Because of this, people who do go to FF.net and would appreciate your style of writing probably don't read it because they're shopping for something else at the moment and don't realize your story would be of interest to them.  Probably the way to fix this is find an online community that is interested in the type of story you're writing, and get involved there to direct your audience to your stories.  

So I will continue to write it, and see it though with as much quality as I can pour into the project, but my frustration will CONTINUE to be the audience, and I will continue to opine about how this or that little nugget that I am particularly fond of did not seem to get the appreciation I felt it deserved because I am  writer, and I get frustrated just like everybody else does.

But just because you - or anybody else - thinks that my frustrations or the way I express them are elitist does not invalidate that they are genuine frustrations for me that I want to get out, or that I still need to work through, or that someone else may share at the same time or may experience at some point in their writing career.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  Certainly all writers get frustrated, certainly your feelings are genuine.  But it's also true that you did insult, well, everyone, from the people who do not read your story (yeah, that's most of us) to people who write stories in more popular genres that you consider low-brow or unartistic (yeah, that's also a lot of us).  Your frustration doesn't excuse sweeping insults of other people.  So I don't see why you would put on a surprise face when someone calls you on it.  

TLDR: don't use a sliver of a statement made on a public forum to judge the situation when you have no frackin' clue what the entire situation entails.

Actually I also went to your FF.net profile and skimmed one of your stories too.  

TL/DR:  Pretentious ****** is still pretentious ****** even when the underlying frustration is genuine, and possibly even merited.  

[mousestalker]

icey_cold wrote...
ROFL.  You...you so win, my friend. You win. 

Thank you! You made my day. <3

[Addai]

Creature 1 wrote...

Yes.  Some fanfiction authors in this thread appear to take it very seriously.  No, it is not easy to write smut.  No, I don't care what you write or read.  Yes, I was feeling snarky.   Yes, story-writing does not have to be a high intellectual pursuit to be fun--that's kind of my point. 

Okay.  I see what you're saying.  I also don't read DA fanfiction expecting to be mentally challenged, but because I want to be entertained and get an Alistair fix or elf fix or whatever.  That's probably why I'm always so pleasantly surprised when I do end up being made to think.

Your comments sounded pretty dismissive, though, of both other ff writers as well as your readers.  You clarified so no big deal.  As I compare the DA fan base to the only other fandom I know well, I have to say I'm impressed by how overall sane and mature and un-snooty it is.  That's a feat, so I commend all of you and put my own plug in that we be supportive of each other in here.

On the subject of "relationship fics", the idea that they automatically draw an audience hasn't held true in my experience.  I spent several months on my Alistair-Mahariel story and got barely a blip about it.  No problem, I was writing it for my own amusement.  On the Loghain story I assumed no one at all would read, I don't even look at the traffic stats because they are freakily scary.  Both of these are fluffy relationship stories with a few nerdy lore bits thrown in for good measure, but obviously one hits a fan nerve that the other didn't.  Who knows why people like what they like.  I'm not going to judge anyone for it either way.

[Creature 1]

Addai67 wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Yes.  Some fanfiction authors in this thread appear to take it very seriously.  No, it is not easy to write smut.  No, I don't care what you write or read.  Yes, I was feeling snarky.   Yes, story-writing does not have to be a high intellectual pursuit to be fun--that's kind of my point. 

Okay.  I see what you're saying.  I also don't read DA fanfiction expecting to be mentally challenged, but because I want to be entertained and get an Alistair fix or elf fix or whatever.  That's probably why I'm always so pleasantly surprised when I do end up being made to think.

I don't read a whole lot of fanfiction partially because there's so much of it it's hard to filter through and find what I might be interested in.  Sometimes I do go by number of reviews and have found some really good ones that way, but I'm sure I've missed many more with just a handful of reviews that were as good.  It makes it hard that the descriptions are so short, I end up looking at a page of stories going "Hmm, which post-Blight Ali/Elissa Cousland fic do I want to read?"  And since I'm not a fan of Alistair or Elissa, generally none , which I'm sure means I'm missing out on a few more good stories.  

Your comments sounded pretty dismissive, though, of both other ff writers as well as your readers.  You clarified so no big deal.  As I compare the DA fan base to the only other fandom I know well, I have to say I'm impressed by how overall sane and mature and un-snooty it is.  That's a feat, so I commend all of you and put my own plug in that we be supportive of each other in here.

I love my readers, all five of them.    Most of the DA fanfic I read I met the authors here.  

[Sialater]

If being a romance was all it took, The Rescue would have a hell of a lot more hits than it does on ff.net and here.  But I remain rather low for all three fics. 

Now... either I absolutely suck.... or I have too little romance in my plot, or it's just not what some like, I don't know.


But don't denigrate romance in general.  Romeo & Juliet, is after all, a romance.

[LupusYondergirl]

I don't think it's that romances are automatically more popular, but it does seem true that of the stories with a lot of reviews (say, over 200), almost all are romances, or have strong romance elements. And of those, I'd say probably half the authors are BSN regulars, which is why the whole discussion seemed so tasteless. Odds are somewhere around 50/50 that the romance fics with a lot of positive reviews people were railing against were written by posters here.
But... that conversation was ugly. I will start a new one.

Instapaper is my new love.  I can load up fanfic chapters and read them on the subway on my iphone without needing an internet connection. A quick google shows there are third party apps for most of the other smartphone OSs, too.

It has made my commute much more enjoyable, so I thought I would share.

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 11 novembre 2010 - 08:13 .

[SurelyForth]

Oh! Nice find, Lupus. I'll be sans computer and internet tomorrow (and with a ton of time on my hands). I might take the opportunity to catch up on some fic.



As for the topic itself, I have to say that I just realized that from April until the beginning of October, I was writing under ideal circumstances. All it took were a couple of tiny bumps in my life and my muse went face down in the mud and is showing no signs of reviving. For now I'm forced to string together sentences with even less art than normal, which leads to sulking over how awful I am, which leads to turning to some other form of entertainment. And wine.



So right now, fanfiction does suck. And it's making me an eensy bit alcoholic.

[Sialater]

Heh, the holidays are doing the same to me, Surely. But I can't drink.

[Herr Uhl]

Sialater wrote...

If being a romance was all it took, The Rescue would have a hell of a lot more hits than it does on ff.net and here.  But I remain rather low for all three fics. 

Now... either I absolutely suck.... or I have too little romance in my plot, or it's just not what some like, I don't know.


But don't denigrate romance in general.  Romeo & Juliet, is after all, a romance.

I think it is the sucking 

[Sialater]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sialater wrote...

If being a romance was all it took, The Rescue would have a hell of a lot more hits than it does on ff.net and here.  But I remain rather low for all three fics. 

Now... either I absolutely suck.... or I have too little romance in my plot, or it's just not what some like, I don't know.


But don't denigrate romance in general.  Romeo & Juliet, is after all, a romance.

I think it is the sucking 

You're a big meanie-head.   ~runs off crying~ 

[jackkel dragon]

Sialater wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
I think it is the sucking 

You're a big meanie-head.   ~runs off crying~ 

Wow, nice one Herr. Real smooth.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

This thread really devolved into a giant "doesn't romance based fic suck? aren't we better!" circle jerk for a while there.  I suspect I'll be lisping if I get called on in class today because of how damn hard I was biting my tongue the entire time, conidering my joking comment at the begining to remind people that some of us DO write 'relationship fics' (and the others who came after me to make similar comments) were all summarily ignored to continue the pile on.  It really didn't come across as critique of specific stories one might consider poorly-written, it came across as a very harsh critique of the subgenre as a whole, with a good portion of insults towards anyone who read it and wrote it added for good measure.

It was after midnight when I last posted, but I still don't see where the huge fuss is. Blind, thick-skinned, clueless, tired or whatever I guess. :/

Someone actually called out a fic by title and author to say what a good romance fic it was but still inherantly not for "thinking men" only because it's a romance fic.  What kind of catty BS is that?  Christ, it's all ****ing fanfic, how is one variety suddenly the domain of high minded intellectuals while another that of the drooling unwashed?

So let's not pretend everyone spent their evening looking down on Twilight here... it was spent looking down on plenty of their fellow DA fanfic writers and posters to this very thread.

I didn't read that comment as a harsh putdown or catty BS. To me at least, it was just one person's opinion that a fanfic was a well-written romance that, in the end, didn't require a lot of mental processing to read. A lot of what *I* write doesn't require people to think in order to enjoy (so if enjoyment is derived from puzzling out what's going on, the reader may be let down), but I'm not going to take offense at someone pointing that out because that's what it is. (Edit: other authors may, and no doubt have, felt differently about this kind of criticism re their own work.)

Not all romance is a lack-of-thought read (and it doesn't have to be a romance to be mindless), so I hope I never said that anywhere. But a lot of it IS, many readers ENJOY that, and the poster people seem to be upset at was, IMO, bemoaning that there aren't more fanfics that are thought-intensive and complex. Not that all romances are for no-brainers.

Shoot me down if I'm out of line. Gotta get back to work...

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 11 novembre 2010 - 11:36 .

[soignee]

jackkel dragon wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
I think it is the sucking 

You're a big meanie-head.   ~runs off crying~ 

Wow, nice one Herr. Real smooth.

classy as usual, bro. classy.

[Herr Uhl]

 She'll come back.

They always come back.