10369 réponses à ce sujet

[Leonia]

Corker wrote...

The wiki is what I use. It seems to be a pretty comprehensive article.

(Interesting aside, because the Wiki mentions the ghostly boy and mother: Although the ghosts do appear to be speaking elvish, if you check their ears, you'll find that they're humans. Dun dun dun...)

Hm, yes. I thought they were speaking Tevinter since the ruins were Tevinter ruins. It's not a bad article but it doesn't give me a lot to work with either. I'm still trying to find the lyrics to the song in Leliana's Song.. I think it's called Captivity? I just recently found the soundtrack but that song wasn't named as Captivity on there (it's the main song I am thinking of, the lyrics are supposedly Dalish). If I could find those lyrics, it would give me a few more "canon" words of Dalish to play with.

[mousestalker]

hahren na melana sahlin
emma ir abelas
souver'inan isala hamin
vhenan him dor'felas
in uthenera na revas

vir sulahn'nehn
vir dirthera
vir samahl la numin
vir lath sa'vunin

Translation:

elder your time is come
now I am filled with sorrow
weary eyes need resting
heart has become grey and slow
in waking sleep of freedom

we sing, rejoice
we tell the tales
we laugh and cry
we love one more day

I am that geeky. Yes I am.

Modifié par mousestalker, 14 décembre 2010 - 04:06 .

[Raonar]

Umm, what wiki do you use? The one from bioware?

Use this page.

It has both songs, Leliana's own and the one in the DLC, plus translations.

Modifié par Raonar, 14 décembre 2010 - 04:10 .

[Leonia]

Yes I use that wiki, Raonar, but every time I would look for the lyrics it would come up with "In Uthenera" and not what I was really after. Maybe I am talking about the wrong song, going to go look it up on YouTube again now.

Found it here. According to the comments, the lyrics are not those of "In Uthenera" (probably spelling that wrong) but I am not sure if the comments are 100% accurate either.

EDIT: *slaps forehead* Duh, I sound stupid, the Elven Language page has been updated since I last looked at it and it is chock full of stuff now! Wow, how did I miss that. And the "Endure" song is what I was after. Thanks for pointing it out, Raonar.

Modifié par leonia42, 14 décembre 2010 - 04:25 .

[Corker]

^Yep. It's actually on the wiki's Elven Language page as "Elvish Eulogy." There's another elvish song from the Leliana's Song DLC there as well.



There's a very few examples of Arcanum (the Tevinter language) laying around the wiki; apparently it's supposed to sound like an antecedent of Fereldenese (Fereldonian?). More Germanic. The ghosts are using words that sound like other elven vocabulary, so I'm thinking it is elven.

[Mahkara]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Raonar wrote...

I think Sarah1281 sets something of a high standard for what she writes and is a bit disheartened when reviewers make it sound like she's fallen short of meeting it

I'd rather get bad reviews than silence. The worst thing for me is when someone has been commenting on every chapter and then just *stops*. I have no idea whether they're busy, I wrote something that pissed them off, or they just got bored and wandered away.

I would *so* much rather hear "I can't believe you did X!" or "this started off interesting, but you've dragged on way too long" than nothing.  I mean, tell me I suck. I'm a big girl.  My betas do this all the time, and I appreciate it!

That said, I've given reviews like that and been burnt (more gentle than you suck, but still), so I'm disinclined to do it unless I know that the author genuinely wants concrit.  Like, I've told the two people I sometimes beta to cut out entire chapters as they're boring, rewrite scenes, etc. (And they do the same to me.)  But I'd be disinclined to do that for much of anyone else, as I'd be afraid that they'd do the whole "wah, you're mean!  I'm brilliant!  you don't get my vision!"  So I'm kind of a hypocrite.   I really, really, really want people to tell me "OK, this started off cool, but is getting dumb. Wrap it up!" yet would be unlikely to do the same for someone else.

Then again, if someone asks me "hey, tell me what you think. Like really think!" I'll do it.  (This is why I've given Zebra hater 3 page long reviews...poor guy.    But I have to know that the response is going to be "thank you so much for spending 2 hours reading my fic and trying to fix it!" rather than "wah, you're a meanie!"

Unfortunately, I've found that about 75% of people who ask for concrit don't want it.  So I tend to error on the side of caution and not give it.

Modifié par Mahkara, 14 décembre 2010 - 05:45 .

[Raonar]

I did get a bit of criticism, but oddly enough, they were from people that didn't have FF.net accounts (anonymous as it were) so i couldn't respond and say thanks for taking the time to disect it.



Sigh....



And to leonia42, you're welcome

[Sarah1281]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Raonar wrote...

I think Sarah1281 sets something of a high standard for what she writes and is a bit disheartened when reviewers make it sound like she's fallen short of meeting it

No one's going to write pure gold all the time. What I'm curious about is if writers want to hear when readers didn't think a story/chapter Wowed them, or if they would prefer silence to a lukewarm review if they can't get a glowing one.

I'm not saying I do. I just realized that whenever someone has said something I've written is 'decent' that it's been bugging me for awhile. Part of it, I guess, is that it's so non-specific. Another part is that the connotations I associate with the word 'decent' are rather average. I obviously don't want to be told that what I did sucks but hearing that something is a word that you associate with 'completely unremarkable' and 'mediocre' is also far from thrilling.

I mean, seriously, what are you supposed to do with a review like "This story was okay but it didn't really blow me away" anyway? Being glad that they got through it anyway? Grateful they don't think it sucked? Frustrated that it was so 'meh' to them? I do tend to take reviews more seriously than I should and 'it was okay' reviews are far more common than 'it sucked' reviews.

Are people ever happy to get lukewarm reviews? I can't imagine why they would be unless they didn't think people were reading but that's what the stat count is for and it hasn't broken in awhile. I wasn't trying to complain with my first post, just sharing a revelation I'd just had upon someone telling me I'd come up with a 'decent prompt.'

[Mahkara]

Sarah1281 wrote...


Are people ever happy to get lukewarm reviews? I can't imagine why they would be unless they didn't think people were reading but that's what the stat count is for and it hasn't broken in awhile. I wasn't trying to complain with my first post, just sharing a revelation I'd just had upon someone telling me I'd come up with a 'decent prompt.'

I am obviously only speaking for myself, but yes.  I would far rather get a lukewarm review than silence.  Especially if I'm given some reason why.  I'll agree that just getting "that was decent" is sort of a crappy review as you don't really know what they were thinking.  But so is getting "this was brilliant!" or "this made me lol".  But getting "eh, I like 90% of what you're writing, but this story/chapter just didn't do it for me" is really helpful, especially if I'm also given a reason why it didn't work.  Even just knowing, hey, person A didn't like chapter X is nice, in that I do go through stories and think "huh, this wasn't very popular.  Why might this be?"  Anything that helps me isolate the reason is helpful.  If people hate a character I'm writing about, OK, that's one reason.  If people think that my characters are flat, my plot boring, my scenario unbelievable...all very different reasons.  I honestly like to know.  And any information to me is better than none, as I try to become a better writer over time.  And it's hard to write better/more interesting stuff if I have no idea what anyone is thinking.

I would *love* to get 10 page reviews where people are like "good, bad, stupid, boring" whatever over every word I write.  But this takes a *lot* of time.  So I certainly don't expect them!  But I do really, really love it when someone is brave enough to tell me "this was bland, this didn't work for me, quite frankly, I like your other stuff better" or whatever.  I take any feedback as a way of improving.

That said, I think I'm a bit odd, as a lot of writers I know are far less crazy perfectionistic/neurotic.    (And some are more...I could name one, but I'll be nice.    Despite that I don't think she reads BSN.)

[mousestalker]

As for reviews of any sort, this pretty much sums up how I feel. I ought to be more detached, but I'm not.

[Sagacious Rage]

Mahkara, be careful what you wish for. The longest, most detailed review I ever got was a merciless flame of a stupid three-part smut piece I wrote for ME. It was just a stupid Garrus/OFC thing I wrote because a friend asked me to. And I got a review that included a thesis, quotes, and was written in the classic five-paragraph style.



Anybody who has enough time on their hands to write a really detailed review like that is probably doing it because you did something to tick them off.

[Sarah1281]

mousestalker wrote...

As for reviews of any sort, this pretty much sums up how I feel. I ought to be more detached, but I'm not.

I hear you. And I  that movie.

@Sagacious: Wow. A few years back I ended up writing a negative review that was longer than the story itself (and the story was only a few hundred words) because it was so horrible but even then I didn't spend more than ten minutes on it and it was mostly trying to make sense of it so I wouldn't call it a flame. That's a lot of...something, all right.

[Sagacious Rage]

I never even bothered to have the thing betaed. At first I was really hurt and angry but by the end I was just baffled. Dude cared about that story a hell of a lot more than I ever did.



Fanfiction. Serious. Business.

[Mahkara]

Sagacious Rage wrote...

Mahkara, be careful what you wish for....Anybody who has enough time on their hands to write a really detailed review like that is probably doing it because you did something to tick them off.

Eh, whatever.  I tick people off all the time. It is part of my job.  (Seriously.  Yargh.  I've done line supervision in manufacturing, which subjects you to lots of abuse.)  I honestly feel like I have a thick enough skin to go "OK, fine, so you hated it.  Did you make a good point in your review, or not? If not, moving on. If you did, what can I learn?"

I think that I have a different view on concrit/reviews/what we're after than that of a lot of people.  I accept that.  I've published actual fic, and have done the whole writer's group thing, which can be brutal.  (Yeah, I spent a day having five professional sci fi and fantasy writers tell me why my work sucked.  Like, they hated every word that I wrote.  And they were quite clear on how my plot, my characters, and my entire world was awful/offensive/terrible/poorly conceived.  They made some good points.  
Incidentally, this review was done in person. Trust me in that this was a lot harder to stand than an anon review or two that thinks my work is merely "decent" or could be improved in a few ways.)  Part of why I like writing ffic is the immediate response that I tend to get about "this worked, this didn't", even if a lot of it is trying to sort through why some parts of the story were commented on and some were ignored.  It's much harder to get this kind of feedback in original fiction.  (Generally, if you're super fortunate, you get a little scribbled note from an editor saying, "Not what we wanted, but not bad. Submit more!"  Publishing original fic sucks.)  So, yeah, if I got a five paragraph review as to why my work sucked, I'd be delighted!  I honestly wish that I'd get more of those! I'm kind of disappointed that I don't.  It's probably a failure in my writing that I can't inspire that kind of passion. Moving on.

I just wish that more of those who didn't want it were clear about it.  I get really confused on some forums in that some writers will be all "I want concrit" then freak out if you do more than correct spelling.  Others I can rip into shreds and then they thank me for spending the time it took to help them improve.  Different strokes, you know?  I just wish that I knew, and that authors were more clear about what they wanted. Since I'm happy to do heavy concrit.  I've done it before in workshops, will do it again.  But I won't do it for someone who decides that whatever I write is a personal insult.

[Sagacious Rage]

IDK the thing about this guy was that it was basically coming from a place of "Girls like Garrus and that makes me HULK OUT IN RAGE" so it wasn't particularly helpful at all. Just really venomous and weird.



There's a difference between people ripping the work to shreds because they're focused on the work and whether or not there's anything you can do to make it better, and people ripping it to shreds because they want to hurt your feelings. And I'm pretty sure this guy was in the second camp.

[Mahkara]

Sagacious Rage wrote...

IDK the thing about this guy was that it was basically coming from a place of "Girls like Garrus and that makes me HULK OUT IN RAGE" so it wasn't particularly helpful at all. Just really venomous and weird.

There's a difference between people ripping the work to shreds because they're focused on the work and whether or not there's anything you can do to make it better, and people ripping it to shreds because they want to hurt your feelings. And I'm pretty sure this guy was in the second camp.

Oh, yeah, I totally agree there. It's one thing to go "huh, how can I improve" and another to go "you jerk!!!!"

That said, I also find those comments pretty easy to ignore.  (I'm getting massive numbers of "kill Cailan!" from all the male readers of Diplomatic Relations, which I find hilarious.)  But I'm still fine getting them. As if someone doesn't get my grand vision (or whatever), I can just ignore it.  (And if a lot complain about the same thing, they likely have a point.)  While if someone has something worthwhile to say, I want to hear it.

I don't think that *every* comment is valuable or valid. But I think that a lot are, and that there are more oversensitive writers out there than crazy flamers.  And, eh, I can take the crazy flamers and would far prefer to get a few of them than to lose out on some interesting perspectives that I might otherwise miss.

[Merilsell]

leonia42 wrote...

Yes I use that wiki, Raonar, but every time I would look for the lyrics it would come up with "In Uthenera" and not what I was really after. Maybe I am talking about the wrong song, going to go look it up on YouTube again now.

Found it here. According to the comments, the lyrics are not those of "In Uthenera" (probably spelling that wrong) but I am not sure if the comments are 100% accurate either.

EDIT: *slaps forehead* Duh, I sound stupid, the Elven Language page has been updated since I last looked at it and it is chock full of stuff now! Wow, how did I miss that. And the "Endure" song is what I was after. Thanks for pointing it out, Raonar.

Haha, BarbossasSister is actually my account and I just typed in there what a BW-dev told us in one thread. Also I write one of the longest Mahariel-FF on FF.net (as in wordy...and loooong), so I'm naturally a Dalish nerd. Lol.

I would die without that Wiki-page. It saved me many, many times since Lenya speaks fluent elvish too (don't like that their language is lost, so I took DG's book canon and ran away with it.

[Prisoner24601]

Personally, I'm in the camp of "OMG please tell me if it sucked" and "negative reviews/concrit is better than silence." There's nothing more horrible than being ignored and knowing something isn't working but unable to figure out why since no one will bother to tell you.



Do I want concrit? Well... to be honest, what I really want is to be told that I'm a freaking brilliant genius and that my stories kick ass. But that's not what I need to get better as writer. And really, I think it's worth it to put up with the bruised ego to get better. But given my educational background and personal life experiences, etc... I've gotten really good at taking critiques and realizing that saying "this story sucks" and "you suck" are not the same thing.



I really wish people left more concrit or honest feedback. I used to leave detailed crit all of the time on stories, but you know a lot of people who think they want concrit and say they're cool with it really aren't. And even if they are and send you emails thanking you for taking the time to leave feedback, there's a 50% chance that their readers are going to leap to their defense and freak out on their behalf (which is much more likely than author's themselves flipping out.)



So I don't leave comments anymore, even when I see glaring problems in a story, because I just don't want to deal with the hassle of someone taking offense. The only times I break this rule is if 1) someone flat out asks for it *and* 2) there are pretty good indications that they actually mean it. And sometimes if I see people with obvious problems and a super low review count, I'll stick my neck out and leave crit (those people are usually quite grateful, I've found).

[Sialater]

Mahkara wrote...

Sagacious Rage wrote...

Mahkara, be careful what you wish for....Anybody who has enough time on their hands to write a really detailed review like that is probably doing it because you did something to tick them off.

Eh, whatever.  I tick people off all the time. It is part of my job.  (Seriously.  Yargh.  I've done line supervision in manufacturing, which subjects you to lots of abuse.)  I honestly feel like I have a thick enough skin to go "OK, fine, so you hated it.  Did you make a good point in your review, or not? If not, moving on. If you did, what can I learn?"

I think that I have a different view on concrit/reviews/what we're after than that of a lot of people.  I accept that.  I've published actual fic, and have done the whole writer's group thing, which can be brutal.  (Yeah, I spent a day having five professional sci fi and fantasy writers tell me why my work sucked.  Like, they hated every word that I wrote.  And they were quite clear on how my plot, my characters, and my entire world was awful/offensive/terrible/poorly conceived.  They made some good points.  
Incidentally, this review was done in person. Trust me in that this was a lot harder to stand than an anon review or two that thinks my work is merely "decent" or could be improved in a few ways.)  Part of why I like writing ffic is the immediate response that I tend to get about "this worked, this didn't", even if a lot of it is trying to sort through why some parts of the story were commented on and some were ignored.  It's much harder to get this kind of feedback in original fiction.  (Generally, if you're super fortunate, you get a little scribbled note from an editor saying, "Not what we wanted, but not bad. Submit more!"  Publishing original fic sucks.)  So, yeah, if I got a five paragraph review as to why my work sucked, I'd be delighted!  I honestly wish that I'd get more of those! I'm kind of disappointed that I don't.  It's probably a failure in my writing that I can't inspire that kind of passion. Moving on.

I just wish that more of those who didn't want it were clear about it.  I get really confused on some forums in that some writers will be all "I want concrit" then freak out if you do more than correct spelling.  Others I can rip into shreds and then they thank me for spending the time it took to help them improve.  Different strokes, you know?  I just wish that I knew, and that authors were more clear about what they wanted. Since I'm happy to do heavy concrit.  I've done it before in workshops, will do it again.  But I won't do it for someone who decides that whatever I write is a personal insult.

Heh, were YOU in my creative writing class in college?  Yeah.. bad reviews on ff.net wouldn't faze me.   However, I do this to improve, so anything said, I'd take it to heart.  You know... after drowning my sorrows for a week in a bottle of vodka.

But seriously, I've had a real life editor tell me they didn't remember my story.  At all. 

[Mahkara]

Sialater wrote...

Heh, were YOU in my creative writing class in college?  Yeah.. bad reviews on ff.net wouldn't faze me.   However, I do this to improve, so anything said, I'd take it to heart.  You know... after drowning my sorrows for a week in a bottle of vodka.

But seriously, I've had a real life editor tell me they didn't remember my story.  At all. 

Hah, hah, hah...probably?  Or maybe most creative writing teachers are nasty, nasty people.  I remember barely making it through that review without crying my eyes out and wondering why in the hell they couldn't say at least once nice thing about it.

But, yeah, in comparison I'm like "trolls of the Internet, do your worst!!!!"  Because, really, you can't be meaner than a 5 person group of writers who are all dog-piling on how my story is the worst thing ever written.

I'd imagine that most RL editors don't remember my stories.  Then again, you know...they read a lot.  TBH, probably nothing that I write is *that* distinctive. Like Prisoner, I totally want to be told that I am brilliant beyond compare, but I sort of realize that there is a reason that I'm not earning my living as a best selling author who has to flee her ardent fans every time she steps out of the house. 

[Sialater]

Writing classes are trials by firing squad.



Well, I'd already sold something to this short story series. It was the sequel.



She didn't remember it at all.



Meghan Shepard and Moira Surana were the result of that. I've been told they're pretty memorable.

[Sagacious Rage]

My fave was being in a writing class full of people who HATED me.



I was like "LOL BRING IT" every time I submitted something.

[Corker]

Mahkara wrote...
I just wish that more of those who didn't want it were clear about it.  I get really confused on some forums in that some writers will be all "I want concrit" then freak out if you do more than correct spelling.

Prisoner24601 wrote...
I really wish people left more concrit or
honest feedback. I used to leave detailed crit all of the time on
stories, but you know a lot of people who think they want concrit and
say they're cool with it really aren't. And even if they are and send
you emails thanking you for taking the time to leave feedback, there's a
50% chance that their readers are going to leap to their defense and
freak out on their behalf (which is much more likely than author's
themselves flipping out.)

I am fairly sure it was on this very thread, a few score pages back (and probably periodically before that) where we had a few days of righteous indignation that someone would dare judge a fic, as if anyone else's vision and/or execution of that vision could be more worthy than someone else's!  That all quality and artistry is subjective, and therefore above reproach!

And let us not speak of the grammar debates.

So yeh.  There are mixed signals a-go-go.

[inquartata02]

Corker wrote...
And let us not speak of the grammar debates.

Aaah! Dialogue grammar! *twitch*

Well, punctuation. I always wonder about saying something whenever there's consistent flaws in relation to dialogue punctuation. And I always end up saying nothing, because I assume even a PM about fixing dialogue punctuation wouldn't be very well received. 

[mousestalker]

For the record: I rather like spelling and grammar critiques. I always pay attention to spelling correction. I always read grammar correction, but reserve the right to ignore it, if it doesn't fit the style I'm attempting to use.