10369 réponses à ce sujet

[Mahkara]

mousestalker wrote...

I was just getting started over there when the incident happened. One of my very few 'deal killers' is non-consensual, which underage sex is. If that means I'm riding a high horse, then fetch me a step ladder, I'm climbing on.

As for the 'I Hate Your Wardens' character I'm not so sure there's an agenda other than a desire for attention. If the person really wanted to see certain writing stopped, they'd probably try to get the fiction in question banned for being MA or something. Instead, this is more like casting a line and seeing what fish get hooked.

Yeah, I'm 100% with you on the non-con.  To a certain extent, I think that it ought to be allowed as it's fiction.  But I'm sure not going to defend it.

I do think you may be right about Hate.  After all, most of the stories in question do have explicit sexual content, which technically means that they violate ffnet TOS.  Then again, Hate may just be really stupid and not understand that reporting all of the stories in question would be a lot easier than harassing the writers.

[Creature 1]

Mahkara wrote...

Yeah, I'm 100% with you on the non-con.  To a certain extent, I think that it ought to be allowed as it's fiction.  But I'm sure not going to defend it.

Authors can write about everything under the sun, but I think most of us think there are some topics that you should not approach in certain ways.  I think the big problem is it was at a kmeme, and depicted graphically.  The same situation written in a different manner could be valid (maybe even if graphic, if the author's intend is not to titillate).  With non-con fics with adults, I don't like it, but I have more of a YKINMK attitude (except for some cases where the author is obviously a sociopath who hopefully is writing from prison) because people can explore that kind of thing through roleplay without anyone getting hurt.  But if someone gets inspired by something like what this author wrote, there's no way to explore that kind of thing without a child getting hurt.  And the purpose of kmeme is such inspiration! 

Edit: Also it seems their PR problem is worse than I had thought!  

Modifié par Creature 1, 25 janvier 2011 - 05:45 .

[LupusYondergirl]

It does make me sad that the person referred to in the SIB post has already taken all their stuff off ffnet, livejournal, and deviant art because of this. From what I know, they've been writing in the DA fandom for a substantial chunk of time. I don't think they were on either of the dreamwidth communities, either.

That a troll was able to basically drive someone completely away from the Dragon Age fan community is unfortunate, and in all likelihood, exactly what they wanted to happen.

[Mahkara]

Creature 1 wrote...

Mahkara wrote...

Yeah, I'm 100% with you on the non-con.  To a certain extent, I think that it ought to be allowed as it's fiction.  But I'm sure not going to defend it.

Authors can write about everything under the sun, but I think most of us think there are some topics that you should not approach in certain ways.  I think the big problem is it was at a kmeme, and depicted graphically.  The same situation written in a different manner could be valid (maybe even if graphic, if the author's intend is not to titillate).  With non-con fics with adults, I don't like it, but I have more of a YKINMK attitude (except for some cases where the author is obviously a sociopath who hopefully is writing from prison) because people can explore that kind of thing through roleplay without anyone getting hurt.  But if someone gets inspired by something like what this author wrote, there's no way to explore that kind of thing without a child getting hurt.  And the purpose of kmeme is such inspiration! 

Edit: Also it seems their PR problem is worse than I had thought!  

PR problem?

I know that this is a rarely shared attitude, but I honestly see no difference between child porn and non-con in fiction.  (I can see the difference in, say, a movie where "non-con" is being depicted with a consenting actress, while child porn could not be depicted with a consenting child.)   Both are illegal in real life, for good reason.  Both are despicable, for good reason. Both happen IRL and are emotionally painful for the victims. Both have been considered normal or mainstream in different historical cultures.  (And consensus =/= right.)

I think that it's fair to say that either are fiction, so YKINMK, whatever.  I think it's also fair to say that either can come off as tremendously offensive, hurtful to victims, or encouraging to perpetrators.  It's also fair to say that either may be written and posted as therapy by their writers.

I suppose my point is that I have never read an argument about non-con (in fiction) that could not be equally well applied to child porn.  I hate them both equally. 

[Maria13]

Mahkara wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

I was just getting started over there when the incident happened. One of my very few 'deal killers' is non-consensual, which underage sex is. If that means I'm riding a high horse, then fetch me a step ladder, I'm climbing on.

As for the 'I Hate Your Wardens' character I'm not so sure there's an agenda other than a desire for attention. If the person really wanted to see certain writing stopped, they'd probably try to get the fiction in question banned for being MA or something. Instead, this is more like casting a line and seeing what fish get hooked.

Yeah, I'm 100% with you on the non-con.  To a certain extent, I think that it ought to be allowed as it's fiction.  But I'm sure not going to defend it.

I do think you may be right about Hate.  After all, most of the stories in question do have explicit sexual content, which technically means that they violate ffnet TOS.  Then again, Hate may just be really stupid and not understand that reporting all of the stories in question would be a lot easier than harassing the writers.

Yes but it would also be less fun, and, lets face it, these types are after the jollies...

[Sialater]

I'm running an experiment. I've enabled anonymous reviews on my ff.net account. We'll see what happens.

[Mahkara]

Sialater wrote...

I'm running an experiment. I've enabled anonymous reviews on my ff.net account. We'll see what happens.

Sadly, probably not much. I've always had them enabled, and what it seems to mostly encourage are my regular reviewers to be lazy and not log in.  

Although I did get one new reviewer who leaves perfectly serious reviews, so...go figure.

I keep hoping for a troll, but they don't seem to like me. Oh well.

[LupusYondergirl]

FWIW, I actually missed the whole tentparty dustup completely so I have no clue what actually happened. I'm not a fan of anything involving non-con of any kind, but I just skip over it. I generally don't like huge drama flamfests. Kind of gave it up once my usenet days were over years ago.

Not entirely sure why they're targeting me, other than that I post chapter updates to POT (and they did pick the one story I post there, and not any of my other fics, which seems telling).

@Sia: I've had anon reviews turned on for a few months at least. I've yet to have any problems- even being on the troll list now. I've only ever gotten one bad anon review, but that was months ago.

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 25 janvier 2011 - 06:25 .

[Prisoner24601]

Mahkara wrote...

Yeah, I'm 100% with you on the non-con.  To a certain extent, I think that it ought to be allowed as it's fiction.  But I'm sure not going to defend it.

Yeah, I agree.  I mean, it's fiction.  If that's what people want to write then that's what they'll write.  And really, I think it has it's place in fiction as life is often hard and cruel and not everything can be sunshine and unicorns.  But a lot of the stories over there aren't respectful of the source material or the seriousness of the subject that they're writing, which bothers me.  And frankly, I think that both YKINMK and story warnings are often used as a shield by authors who write things that they should be called on.    It seems pretty disingenuous to write intentionally provocative stuff and then clutch pearls when people do, in fact, get offended.

And you know, if that's what they want to do, then they should knock themselves out.  It's their sandbox, so they get to make the rules and I'll respect and follow them. But I just don't want to be around it anymore, which is too bad as it's an active community that has had some really interesting discussions and some fun fic prompts and swaps.

Modifié par Prisoner24601, 25 janvier 2011 - 06:31 .

[Sagacious Rage]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

It does make me sad that the person referred to in the SIB post has already taken all their stuff off ffnet, livejournal, and deviant art because of this. From what I know, they've been writing in the DA fandom for a substantial chunk of time. I don't think they were on either of the dreamwidth communities, either.
That a troll was able to basically drive someone completely away from the Dragon Age fan community is unfortunate, and in all likelihood, exactly what they wanted to happen.

Yes, this. Zenrau's been a member of SiB for over a year. I'm just so sick over the whole thing. For what it's worth I'm not sure this "Hate" person is the same one as trolled Zenrau. I've been monitoring the reviews of every fic that showed up on there and none of them have gotten the abuse that she did.

[Tasmen]

The trolling of zenrau seriously made me sick. Her story was not to my taste at all; however I don't think that merited the flames she got. That said, I don't think ihateyourwarden is the same person that flames her. It really seems to me that person has a thing againt POT

[Creature 1]

Mahkara wrote...

PR problem?

Public relations.  Seems even more people than I thought were disillusioned by this.  

I know that this is a rarely shared attitude, but I honestly see no difference between child porn and non-con in fiction.  (I can see the difference in, say, a movie where "non-con" is being depicted with a consenting actress, while child porn could not be depicted with a consenting child.)   Both are illegal in real life, for good reason.  Both are despicable, for good reason. Both happen IRL and are emotionally painful for the victims. Both have been considered normal or mainstream in different historical cultures.  (And consensus =/= right.)

I think that it's fair to say that either are fiction, so YKINMK, whatever.  I think it's also fair to say that either can come off as tremendously offensive, hurtful to victims, or encouraging to perpetrators.  It's also fair to say that either may be written and posted as therapy by their writers.

I suppose my point is that I have never read an argument about non-con (in fiction) that could not be equally well applied to child porn.  I hate them both equally. 

Good points. 

I agree people may write certain things as a means of therapy or for some other reason, but then there's the second question of whether an author should publish something now that it's been written.  There's no reason you have to post everything you write.  I've written things, asked myself, "Should I publish this?" and decided not to, leaving them buried in a folder somewhere. 

[Mahkara]

Prisoner24601 wrote...

But a lot of the stories over there aren't respectful of the source material or the seriousness of the subject that they're writing, which bothers me.  And frankly, I think that both YKINMK and story warnings are often used as a shield by authors who write things that they should be called on.    It seems pretty disingenuous to write intentionally provocative stuff and then clutch pearls when people do, in fact, get offended.

This is what bothers me about the rape fics.  I'd be 100% OK with a gritty story where it was obvious that the author had diligently researched rape, and tried to recreate the feelings of the survivor accurately and sensitively, as there was this *need* to have it in the fic.  I'd feel the same way about child molestation, mental illness, drug abuse, etc.  But I'm not OK with this attitude that these things should be thrown into a story to stir up the drama, get comments, or titillate. And if you're a so-so writer, and aren't sure that you can write this kind of thing well enough to do it sensitively, don't.  I mean, I hate to sound like an elitist jerk, but if you're not sure, no one is going to be offended by your long, fluffy Teagan + Warden story where they sit around staring into each others eyes.  Go for that if you need to get up to speed. And if you really, really need to write non-con or whatever as "therapy", the option exists to leave it on your computer.  You don't have to publish everything.  And if you're asking, "could this totally hurt/upset/offend", maybe the right answer is to say, "yes" and not hit that upload button.

And, yeah, I agree that hiding behind YKINMK is a pretty vile way of justifying offensive stuff.  I'm sorry, but if my "kink" is raping and murdering people of a different race/sexuality/nationality/whatever while hurling slurs at them and writing about how heroic my protagonist is, I'm not sure that my "kink" deserves to be defended.

[Sagacious Rage]

Tasmen wrote...

The trolling of zenrau seriously made me sick. Her story was not to my taste at all; however I don't think that merited the flames she got. That said, I don't think ihateyourwarden is the same person that flames her. It really seems to me that person has a thing againt POT

Ha! Great minds, etc. You really think they have a grudge against PoT? I don't spend enough time there, I guess.

[Sagacious Rage]

Mahkara wrote...
 I mean, I hate to sound like an elitist jerk, but if you're not sure, no one is going to be offended by your long, fluffy Teagan + Warden story where they sit around staring into each others eyes.

Well, from what I've seen on Hate's list, there's at least one person who's going to be offended. <_<

[Addai]

Sagacious Rage wrote...

Tasmen wrote...

The trolling of zenrau seriously made me sick. Her story was not to my taste at all; however I don't think that merited the flames she got. That said, I don't think ihateyourwarden is the same person that flames her. It really seems to me that person has a thing againt POT

Ha! Great minds, etc. You really think they have a grudge against PoT? I don't spend enough time there, I guess.

What is PoT?  I don't post anywhere but ffnet so it can't be exclusively directed at that.

Not that it matters.  Too much attention for one troll.

[Mahkara]

Sagacious Rage wrote...

Mahkara wrote...
 I mean, I hate to sound like an elitist jerk, but if you're not sure, no one is going to be offended by your long, fluffy Teagan + Warden story where they sit around staring into each others eyes.

Well, from what I've seen on Hate's list, there's at least one person who's going to be offended. <_<

Hate is a special snowflake.

Although from what I can recall, part of the reason that Zenrau's story got so many negative reviews was that it wasn't an entirely fluffy piece.  (I only read the reviews, but someone was calling it offensive for its treatment of anorexia, etc.  I can't say as I didn't read.)  I have no idea whether this was what set Hate off, but I'm not quite sure what motivates Hate, either.

[Elysium-Fic]

Addai67 wrote...

So, I got a hate fave on ffnet by someone named I Hate Your Warden. On a story that doesn't have a Warden in it. You'd think if you were going to flame someone you'd make yourself out to be less of a moron.

Oh, I'm not alone then.  Yay!

[Miri1984]

 This is what the person is doing.

Seriously. I have a few things to say about this. No matter what originally annoyed this person, and I know that there were a few things that could well have legitimately done so, NOTHING excuses the behaviour that I've been seeing from them since.

1. There are channels they can follow if any fiction offends them. FF.net has a reporting system. There are moderators on the communities that have been affected. There are ways of contacting the authors privately. Publicly ridiculing people or listing them in "hate lists" is cyber-bullying, or even stalking, and it's disgusting.
2. It's pretty obvious that Tent Party, and to a lesser extent, POT are skewed towards the heavier, darker, kinkier side of this fandom. I love those two communities, but I absolutely know that they're not everyone's cup of tea. There's an easy way to not be offended by stuff that is written and posted there. DON'T GO THERE AT ALL.
3. Some authors write dark stuff. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY ENDORSE IT. If you don't like reading it, DON'T. If you think it contravenes the rules of a community REPORT IT. (In the case of the Tent Party fic - it was brought to the attention of a mod and THE RULES WERE CHANGED - proper channels were followed, and the problem, therefore, was over).
4. If you know an author has a penchant for writing fics you don't like, WHY ON EARTH ARE YOU READING THEM?

*rant mode off*

[LupusYondergirl]

Elysium-Fic wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

So, I got a hate fave on ffnet by someone named I Hate Your Warden. On a story that doesn't have a Warden in it. You'd think if you were going to flame someone you'd make yourself out to be less of a moron.

Oh, I'm not alone then.  Yay!

Nope...  We should get matching hats!

[Elysium-Fic]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

I suspect that the person behind that account is the same one that's been trolling peopleofthedas and tentparty as of late.

If it is, then they added themself to their own list, since one of the authors/stories on that list is by (one of) the troll(s) from PoT/DATP.

[Sagacious Rage]

I'd like to know how Sqyub ended up on that list. Talk about random.

[Tasmen]

Sagacious Rage wrote...

I'd like to know how Sqyub ended up on that list. Talk about random.

 
honestly i wondered the same thing.  it is very random and wardenless too.  the whole thing has me saying cant we have nice things?

[LupusYondergirl]

I've suspected that account/fill itself was a troll post just to incite things.

Who knows, maybe it's the same person and they added themselves for ****s and giggles. Wouldn't be the first time something like that happened...

[Elysium-Fic]

Mahkara wrote...

LupusYondergirl wrote...

I suspect that the person behind that account is the same one that's been trolling peopleofthedas and tentparty as of late.

You're probably right.  This might actually be a rather good way to figure out who's the POT troll, seeing as they're always anon. 

*will now ponder whether the POT troll  has a pattern, or just really hated the child molestation fic, which was what seemed to generate the most anon comments*

My suspicion was that it was the troll itself who posted the child molestation fic, for the purposes of then complaining about it anonymously and stirring up drama.  That fic was almost certainly intended to be flame-bait.