10369 réponses à ce sujet

[Mahkara]

mousestalker wrote...


On a related note, if you could write like someone, who would you like to emulate?

Mark Twain. He was hilarious, a social commentator, and had a great ear for dialogue and dialectic.  He could also spin a mean tale, and enjoyed keeping people guessing.  I really, really wish I could be him.  I'm not, but I will just keep trying.

[DreGregoire]

removed

Modifié par DreGregoire, 25 janvier 2011 - 11:15 .

[Elysium-Fic]

Creature 1 wrote...
The line was drawn because the mods seemed to realize, "Hmm, we could face legal trouble over this", not because the mods and the community are actually opposed to the sexual exploitation of children.

Oh, really? In point of fact, nearly everyone who commented on that thread stated that the material was not to their taste and that they found it distressing to see it pop up with no warning.

Such as myself, here: For the record, the subject matter of the screened story (I presume) is far, far from my sphere of interest. and I am the last one who would ever endorse child abuse, sexual or otherwise. I've been a victim of it, and I would never say it's okay behavior.

Or Miri here:I despise child pornography and Getting that in my in-box at 6 in the morning was very squicky. and Truly, no one here is endorsing the act

Or Scary Lady here:I'm almost impossible to squick and I was uneasy about what I was reading.

Or here: It may very well be offensive, that is up to the individual to decide.

Or here: Getting it in my inbox first thing in the morning was kind of a shock. I appreciate that it was upsetting, and I'm sorry that your triggers got tripped.

It was drawn in a way that made it clear that the mods thought people complaining over posting child pornography were annoying busy-bodies, and inconveniencing everyone with their irrational complaints.

You mean in the comments to this policy statement? Where the mods--who were on vacation and severely ill at the time--got firm with another (conveniently anonymous) person who was trying to stir up the drama all over again after they had shut it down?

The position of the mods--and the regular posters--was that the material in question was distasteful and should have had a warning. That was stated quite clearly.

The position of the mods and the regular posters, however, was ALSO the old chestnut "I may not like what you have to say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it." Which can only be confused with "I defend your right to do it" or "I support child porn" by the most eager-grasping troll trying to stir up dramaz.

The only people who have any cause to complain are the ones who wanted to prolong the dramaz.

Modifié par Elysium-Fic, 25 janvier 2011 - 10:07 .

[Tasmen]

Scary Lady wrote...

I've counted three people (including yourself) in this discussion who have expressed any discomfort with the content of PoT.  If that represents 'the majority of the DA community' then the community is far smaller than I would have thought possible.

I'll fess up, some of the stuff on PoT?  So not to my taste and yes, the DATP prompt that resulted in the child stuff?  I was a bit disturbed by it.  Did I comment at the time?  Nope.  Do I think the rules over there should be a little stricter?  Yes, I don't think puberty is a good measure of when someone can participate in sex.  But hey, not my comm, not my rules.  If something has the proper tags on it, I just won't read it.

I do believe there is a rather quiet majority out there that simply keeps their mouth shut or moves along to greener pastures when they see content they don't like.  Not everyone likes to voice their opinion due to fear of a reprisal that may or may not come.  They just don't feel it's worth the effort.

[Daigowedd]

Elysium-Fic wrote...
The position of the mods--and the regular posters--was that the material in question was distasteful and should have had a warning. That was stated quite clearly.

The position of the mods and the regular posters, however, was ALSO the old chestnut "I may not like what you have to say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it." Which can only be confused with "I defend your right to do it" or "I support child porn" by the most eager-grasping troll trying to stir up dramaz.

The only people who have any cause to complain are the ones who wanted to prolong the dramaz.

Ah, so the mods don't support your child rape/snuff fic, they just enable it!

And you really don't see why your "work" causes so much "drama?"

Shine on, crazy diamond.

[Mahkara]

Elysium-Fic wrote...

Oh, really? In point of fact, nearly everyone who commented on that thread stated that the material was not to their taste and that they found it distressing to see it pop up with no warning.

Wasn't one of the issues that this was that this was up on DATP, and that there's really no good way to insert warnings there (other than maybe by adding a "Please don't read this..." header)  I know that I've been surprised when I've scrolled around in the past, and have decided not to read fics posted there as, TBH, I'm not overly excited when I stumble across a bit of non-con where the only warning was a quick "Oh, BTW, non-con!" in bold before it jumped straight to graphic rape.

And even on DW, a lot of the time the warnings leave...something to be desired.  (Such as telling us "please don't read this if extremely sensitive", which isn't much of a warning for incest and non-con.)

[darkrose]

Creature 1 wrote...
The line was drawn because the mods seemed to realize, "Hmm, we could face legal trouble over this", not because the mods and the community are actually opposed to the sexual exploitation of children.  It was drawn in a way that made it clear that the mods thought people complaining over posting child pornography were annoying busy-bodies, and inconveniencing everyone with their irrational complaints.  And it was drawn in such a way that it really makes little difference--now instead of writing stories in which pre-pubescent children are raped, the pedophiles can write stories in which barely-pubescent children are raped! 

Given that the number of people on the comm who have spoken of being abuse survivors, what I actually find offensive is the assumption that writing about something is the same as condoning it, and that those of us who said, "I think that should have been warned for" are insufficiently opposed to the sexual exploitation of real-life children.

I actually read the fic. I was pretty uncomfortable with it, and I think that there should have been clear warnings so that people who are triggered by such content would know up front what they were getting. (I also am 99.9% sure that it was posted as a deliberate attempt to stir ****.) However, even with that, I didn't get the sense that it was written with the intent to titillate. The depiction of someone abusing his power and taking advantage of an affection-starved child was horrific, and sadly, fairly realistic. 

And that to me, is where the problem lies. We're writing in a fandom where it's canon that one character was sexually abused starting at age 7. We're writing in a fandom where rape is (over)used as a plot device, and torture and racial violence are everyday occurrences. If you start saying that sexual content involving children is banned, then you also ban any look at the backstory of many characters. Writing about something doesn't automatically mean that the author condones that action or is presenting it in a positive light. Implying that there's no difference between sex involving minors that's intended to show how awful a situation is and sex involving minors that is meant to tittilate assumed that writers are too incompetent and readers are to stupid to understand that disctinction. I

Modifié par darkrose, 25 janvier 2011 - 10:11 .

[Elysium-Fic]

Tasmen wrote...
I do believe there is a rather quiet majority out there that simply keeps their mouth shut or moves along to greener pastures when they see content they don't like.  Not everyone likes to voice their opinion due to fear of a reprisal that may or may not come.  They just don't feel it's worth the effort.

Ironically, it's not the ones who have voiced dissenting opinions who have been targeted for reprisal and harassment, as evidenced by the fact that it's the PoT supporters being trolled.  Of course, that may be because we're the ones with the temerity to put our names to our opinions.

[darkrose]

Mahkara wrote...

mousestalker wrote...


On a related note, if you could write like someone, who would you like to emulate?

Mark Twain. He was hilarious, a social commentator, and had a great ear for dialogue and dialectic.  He could also spin a mean tale, and enjoyed keeping people guessing.  I really, really wish I could be him.  I'm not, but I will just keep trying.

Funny you should mention him, since there's currently a good bit of controversy over one publisher's decision to release a version of what many consider Twain's best work, only without the bits that make modern readers uncomfortable.

[Sagacious Rage]

Tasmen wrote...


I'll fess up, some of the stuff on PoT?  So not to my taste and yes, the DATP prompt that resulted in the child stuff?  I was a bit disturbed by it.  Did I comment at the time?  Nope.  Do I think the rules over there should be a little stricter?  Yes, I don't think puberty is a good measure of when someone can participate in sex.  But hey, not my comm, not my rules.  If something has the proper tags on it, I just won't read it.

I do believe there is a rather quiet majority out there that simply keeps their mouth shut or moves along to greener pastures when they see content they don't like.  Not everyone likes to voice their opinion due to fear of a reprisal that may or may not come.  They just don't feel it's worth the effort.

Same here. I don't post over there very much. Between SiB and the Big Bang and my own projects and lol Real Life stuff, I don't really have time to be super-involved in a new comm. But any interest I had in getting more involved than I am pretty much withered there.

I also dislike this attitude that seems to be fairly common, not just here but in fandom in general, that a person has to write about rape/incest/underage/abuse/what have you or their stories are just "fluff". There's a pretty wide gulf between fluff and rape.

[Sagacious Rage]

Elysium-Fic wrote...

Ironically, it's not the ones who have voiced dissenting opinions who have been targeted for reprisal and harassment, as evidenced by the fact that it's the PoT supporters being trolled.  Of course, that may be because we're the ones with the temerity to put our names to our opinions.

Like Zenrau?

[Mahkara]

darkrose wrote...


And that to me, is where the problem lies. We're writing in a fandom where it's canon that one character was sexually abused starting at age 7. We're writing in a fandom where rape is (over)used as a plot device, and torture and racial violence are everyday occurrences. If you start saying that sexual content involving children is banned, then you also ban any look at the backstory of many characters. Writing about something doesn't automatically mean that the author condones that action or is presenting it in a positive light. Implying that there's no difference between sex involving minors that's intended to show how awful a situation is and sex involving minors that is meant to tittilate assumed that writers are too incompetent and readers are to stupid to understand that disctinction. I

Again, I don't really mind the heavy themes. What I do mind is them being used as ****** fodder.  I think that if someone was writing a story where Zevran's abuse, say, was alluded to...or even where he suffered it in a well researched and sensitive manner - great!  But treating it like porn?  That's where I'd draw the line.  And unfortunately, from what I can recall, the child porn story was written for the kmeme...as is a lot of the "dark" stuff.

[Daigowedd]

Elysium-Fic wrote...

Tasmen wrote...
I do believe there is a rather quiet majority out there that simply keeps their mouth shut or moves along to greener pastures when they see content they don't like.  Not everyone likes to voice their opinion due to fear of a reprisal that may or may not come.  They just don't feel it's worth the effort.

Ironically, it's not the ones who have voiced dissenting opinions who have been targeted for reprisal and harassment, as evidenced by the fact that it's the PoT supporters being trolled.  Of course, that may be because we're the ones with the temerity to put our names to our opinions.

So is Elysium your first or last name? My first name is Chris, my second is Hansen.

[Rinji the Bearded]

darkrose wrote...

And that to me, is where the problem lies. We're writing in a fandom where it's canon that one character was sexually abused starting at age 7. We're writing in a fandom where rape is (over)used as a plot device, and torture and racial violence are everyday occurrences. If you start saying that sexual content involving children is banned, then you also ban any look at the backstory of many characters. Writing about something doesn't automatically mean that the author condones that action or is presenting it in a positive light. Implying that there's no difference between sex involving minors that's intended to show how awful a situation is and sex involving minors that is meant to tittilate assumed that writers are too incompetent and readers are to stupid to understand that disctinction.

First off, WHO was canonly raped at age 7?  

Second, she wrote it for a kinkmeme.   I don't think it was a "please-be-aware-of-these-horrible-social-issues!meme."  Get it right.

Third, hiding behind the first amendment for an excuse to express yourself with child molestation in your fanfiction is despicable.  It has absolutely no literary value when it's written for a community that thrives in KINK, and is NOT protected by the First Constitution.

[Mahkara]

darkrose wrote...

Mahkara wrote...

mousestalker wrote...


On a related note, if you could write like someone, who would you like to emulate?

Mark Twain. He was hilarious, a social commentator, and had a great ear for dialogue and dialectic.  He could also spin a mean tale, and enjoyed keeping people guessing.  I really, really wish I could be him.  I'm not, but I will just keep trying.

Funny you should mention him, since there's currently a good bit of controversy over one publisher's decision to release a version of what many consider Twain's best work, only without the bits that make modern readers uncomfortable.

Yeah, I find that rather hilarious, really.  (And kind of sad.)  I mean, among other things, this could be 1) a great way to show how language changes (the word in question wasn't seen as being *as* offensive in his time as it is in the modern era. It wasn't polite, but it wasn't used the same), 2) I really don't think that the replacement is any better.

But that said, he wasn't writing Huckleberry Finn to titillate, either. And the word in question wasn't obscene in his era.

[Elysium-Fic]

Sagacious Rage wrote...

Elysium-Fic wrote...

Ironically, it's not the ones who have voiced dissenting opinions who have been targeted for reprisal and harassment, as evidenced by the fact that it's the PoT supporters being trolled.  Of course, that may be because we're the ones with the temerity to put our names to our opinions.

Like Zenrau?

I am not familiar with her or her work.  To my knowledge, she hasn't been involved in any of the stuff at PoT.  But Miri and Amhran and bellaknoti and myself are all active there.

[Elysium-Fic]

Daigowedd wrote...

So is Elysium your first or last name? My first name is Chris, my second is Hansen.

Bully for you.  I keep my RL and fan life separate for privacy reasons.  This IS my identity in this fandom.  Anything else is unrelated to this fandom and irrelevent.

[Tasmen]

Elysium-Fic wrote...
Ironically, it's not the ones who have voiced dissenting opinions who have been targeted for reprisal and harassment, as evidenced by the fact that it's the PoT supporters being trolled.  Of course, that may be because we're the ones with the temerity to put our names to our opinions.

Here, that is perhaps true though I don't know that I would call it harassment.  I'm seeing people having a discussion which I hope will remain constructive and not be taken personally.    Disagreeing ain't peeing on someone so to speak.

There are certain topics that do, however, result in some pretty heated conversation and the topic of children and acts against them is one of them.  Folks feel really strongly about it so much so that some feel the unspoken social contract* that we follow here in the states (certain rights are inalienable, yada yada) does not include protections for certain acts.   I can see how people could/would apply this belief to things like writings with possibly inflammatory content.  Though I should also note, the DA comm is hugely huge.  Not all participants in the fandom are from the US and thus do not necessarily prescribe to the tenants in the Bill of Rights.

I imagine more people are speaking up here than on PoT about this because people tend to feel more comfortable in their own playground.  But I still stand by my opinion that there are more quiet folks out there that just don't bother than there are yappy folks and I say that as someone that can be rather yappy from time to time.


*And my parents thought** a degree in Philosphy would get me nothing...
** Shame I didn't get it in English to learn how to spell 'thought' the first time

Modifié par Tasmen, 25 janvier 2011 - 10:28 .

[Miri1984]

You know what, this whole stupid mess has driven me to tears. I hate that it's gotten to this point. I hate that people are so horrible. I hate that people have been offended and I hate that we've let it get this far. I'm making an appeal to everyone to leave it where it is. You disagree. Fine. Take it to PM. Go and shout in the street. Truly.

[Mahkara]

Elysium-Fic wrote...

Bully for you.  I keep my RL and fan life separate for privacy reasons.  This IS my identity in this fandom.  Anything else is unrelated to this fandom and irrelevent.

I think that's perfectly fair. But given that, it's hard for me to feel overly sympathetic towards someone complaining about anonymous comments if they're using a sock themselves.  *shrugs*  Then again, I don't post anon.

[DreGregoire]

edit removed

Modifié par DreGregoire, 25 janvier 2011 - 11:16 .

[Creature 1]

mousestalker wrote...

I try to live by the motto WWJAD? I'm pretty sure Jane Austen would not write certain sorts of fiction. (I feel confident she'd be all over slash, though).

ROFL!  You think?  I would loved to have met her.  

On a related note, if you could write like someone, who would you like to emulate?

Terry Pratchett.  I want to have lunch with Terry Pratchett, Garth Nix, and Diana Wynne Jones.  Well, ok, I'd like to be able to write like Terry Pratchett *sometimes*.  Most of my writing isn't suited for comedy, though some of what I've written that would be most appropriate for children is. 

[Elysium-Fic]

RinjiRenee wrote...

First off, WHO was canonly raped at age 7? 

Katriel. Take that one up with Gaider.

Second, she wrote it for a kinkmeme.   I don't think it was a "please-be-aware-of-these-horrible-social-issues!meme."  Get it right.

She didn't write it for the kmeme, she wrote it to TROLL the kmeme.  She didn't write it to tililate, she wrote it to see what drama she could stir up.

Third, hiding behind the first amendment for an excuse to express yourself with child molestation in your fanfiction is despicable.  It has absolutely no literary value when it's written for a community that thrives in KINK, and is NOT protected by the First Constitution.

The community does not thrive in kink, it thrives in the open exchange of ideas, so long as they're exchanged peacefully.

[Sagacious Rage]

Elysium-Fic wrote...

Sagacious Rage wrote...

Elysium-Fic wrote...

Ironically, it's not the ones who have voiced dissenting opinions who have been targeted for reprisal and harassment, as evidenced by the fact that it's the PoT supporters being trolled.  Of course, that may be because we're the ones with the temerity to put our names to our opinions.

Like Zenrau?

I am not familiar with her or her work.  To my knowledge, she hasn't been involved in any of the stuff at PoT.  But Miri and Amhran and bellaknoti and myself are all active there.

There are twelve stories by ten different authors on Hate's list. I know because I've been monitoring their activity. There used to be another story by Zenrau on that list but it's gone. She deleted all of her material from ff.net, lj, and DeviantArt after somebody made multiple sockpuppet accounts to tell her to kill herself.

I'm sorry that the person in question hurt your feelings by putting you on that list. But I'd have to say that the trolling is not limited to PoT, nor is it most vicious there. So turning this into a PoT vs. The World issue is muddying the waters at the very least.

[sami jo]

I have been very quiet on all the comms recently. I read the kerfuffle about the child rape piece, but did not comment. I'm certainly not of the opinion that child rape is alright but there are Places within fiction where such topics are appropriate. It is part of Zevran's cannon backstory, so anyone wishing to explore his childhood in fic would have to explore the topic to some extent, and he was most certainly under the age of 13. I suspect the careful wording of the mods had more to do with trying not to shut down fic in which the topic might be appropriate rather than suggesting they thought child rape was great ****** material. Warning should definitely be applied in ways that are very obvious-- I have certainly had my own issues triggered by things that weren't appropriately warned-- but there are valid reasons for such material to be in a fic that have nothing to do with getting off to it.