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#8001
Ceylon

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Miri1984 wrote...

You know what, this whole stupid mess has driven me to tears. I hate that it's gotten to this point. I hate that people are so horrible. I hate that people have been offended and I hate that we've let it get this far. I'm making an appeal to everyone to leave it where it is. You disagree. Fine. Take it to PM. Go and shout in the street. Truly.


I suggest taking a time-out from the thread then, if it appears to be so upsetting to you?  People will discuss things and if it's a topic you find distressing, it'd be a good idea to avoid it, yes?

#8002
DreGregoire

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removed

Modifié par DreGregoire, 25 janvier 2011 - 11:17 .


#8003
maryanncolchester

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It's fiction. Not reality. Don't like it, don't read it. Like one comm and not the other, don't go there. Very simple. Surely, some comments here are getting out of hand.

#8004
Mahkara

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Elysium-Fic wrote...


She didn't write it for the kmeme, she wrote it to TROLL the kmeme.  She didn't write it to tililate, she wrote it to see what drama she could stir up.



Maybe I'm missing something but...why are you defending a troll?

<--also does not get why writing child porn to stir up drama is *worse* than writing child porn to titillate, but this may just be one of those YMMV things

#8005
Rinji the Bearded

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Elysium-Fic wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

First off, WHO was canonly raped at age 7? 


Katriel. Take that one up with Gaider.

Second, she wrote it for a kinkmeme.   I don't think it was a "please-be-aware-of-these-horrible-social-issues!meme."  Get it right.


She didn't write it for the kmeme, she wrote it to TROLL the kmeme.  She didn't write it to tililate, she wrote it to see what drama she could stir up.

Third, hiding behind the first amendment for an excuse to express yourself with child molestation in your fanfiction is despicable.  It has absolutely no literary value when it's written for a community that thrives in KINK, and is NOT protected by the First Constitution.


The community does not thrive in kink, it thrives in the open exchange of ideas, so long as they're exchanged peacefully.


1.  Gaider didn't write Katriel for a kinkmeme.

2. She still wrote it for a kinkmeme.  You don't get to backpedal and call it a trolling effort and get away with it.  It was written in order to titilate, in a community that was intended for kink, trolling or no.  It therefore has no literary value, and is illegal in most states.  Get better at trolling.

3.  Yes, that's exactly what I think as the average person passing by.  "Oh!  That kink!meme must be a place for an exchange for literary thought!  I will go there and look for the harmless stimulation of my mind!"

The definition of kink:

Slang Peculiarity or deviation in sexual behavior or taste.

So you're telling me people go there to exchange ideas that aren't about sexual deviation?  You don't say?

#8006
Sialater

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RinjiRenee wrote...

darkrose wrote...

And that to me, is where the problem lies. We're writing in a fandom where it's canon that one character was sexually abused starting at age 7. We're writing in a fandom where rape is (over)used as a plot device, and torture and racial violence are everyday occurrences. If you start saying that sexual content involving children is banned, then you also ban any look at the backstory of many characters. Writing about something doesn't automatically mean that the author condones that action or is presenting it in a positive light. Implying that there's no difference between sex involving minors that's intended to show how awful a situation is and sex involving minors that is meant to tittilate assumed that writers are too incompetent and readers are to stupid to understand that disctinction.


First off, WHO was canonly raped at age 7?  

Second, she wrote it for a kinkmeme.   I don't think it was a "please-be-aware-of-these-horrible-social-issues!meme."  Get it right.

Third, hiding behind the first amendment for an excuse to express yourself with child molestation in your fanfiction is despicable.  It has absolutely no literary value when it's written for a community that thrives in KINK, and is NOT protected by the First Constitution.


Zevran. 

#8007
Mahkara

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Elysium-Fic wrote...

Katriel. Take that one up with Gaider.


I think you mean Fiona...

#8008
Sagacious Rage

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Mahkara wrote...

Elysium-Fic wrote...


She didn't write it for the kmeme, she wrote it to TROLL the kmeme.  She didn't write it to tililate, she wrote it to see what drama she could stir up.



Maybe I'm missing something but...why are you defending a troll?

<--also does not get why writing child porn to stir up drama is *worse* than writing child porn to titillate, but this may just be one of those YMMV things


I'm also wondering how it's so well-known that the purpose was to troll. There was no rule against it before it was posted. Members of the community seemed to be against the idea of a rule banning the subject material after it was posted. So how can one be so sure that it wasn't written for titillation? If I was a person interested in such things and saw that attitude in a comm, I would expect that my work would be acceptable.

If the author confirmed that later, please disregard. Like I said, I don't really have time to be as involved over there as I would like and I only saw some of the fallout.

#8009
Rinji the Bearded

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Sialater wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

darkrose wrote...

And that to me, is where the problem lies. We're writing in a fandom where it's canon that one character was sexually abused starting at age 7. We're writing in a fandom where rape is (over)used as a plot device, and torture and racial violence are everyday occurrences. If you start saying that sexual content involving children is banned, then you also ban any look at the backstory of many characters. Writing about something doesn't automatically mean that the author condones that action or is presenting it in a positive light. Implying that there's no difference between sex involving minors that's intended to show how awful a situation is and sex involving minors that is meant to tittilate assumed that writers are too incompetent and readers are to stupid to understand that disctinction.


First off, WHO was canonly raped at age 7?  

Second, she wrote it for a kinkmeme.   I don't think it was a "please-be-aware-of-these-horrible-social-issues!meme."  Get it right.

Third, hiding behind the first amendment for an excuse to express yourself with child molestation in your fanfiction is despicable.  It has absolutely no literary value when it's written for a community that thrives in KINK, and is NOT protected by the First Constitution.


Zevran. 


He grew up with Antivan ****s.  He never said anything about being molested by them.

#8010
Daigowedd

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Writing about child abuse, even sexual abuse is not the same as writing child porn for someone to ****** over.

#8011
Elysium-Fic

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Mahkara wrote...

Elysium-Fic wrote...


She didn't write it for the kmeme, she wrote it to TROLL the kmeme.  She didn't write it to tililate, she wrote it to see what drama she could stir up.



Maybe I'm missing something but...why are you defending a troll?


I'm not and I never have.  I'm defending the community.  I'm defending a policy of enabling the free and open exchange of peaceable ideas.

The troll, unfortunately, took that policy and used it as an excuse to post material that they knew would be offensive, and would cause the exchange of ideas to STOP being peaceful.

Doesn't mean the policy the troll abused is a bad one.

#8012
Sagacious Rage

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RinjiRenee wrote...

Sialater wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

darkrose wrote...

And that to me, is where the problem lies. We're writing in a fandom where it's canon that one character was sexually abused starting at age 7. We're writing in a fandom where rape is (over)used as a plot device, and torture and racial violence are everyday occurrences. If you start saying that sexual content involving children is banned, then you also ban any look at the backstory of many characters. Writing about something doesn't automatically mean that the author condones that action or is presenting it in a positive light. Implying that there's no difference between sex involving minors that's intended to show how awful a situation is and sex involving minors that is meant to tittilate assumed that writers are too incompetent and readers are to stupid to understand that disctinction.


First off, WHO was canonly raped at age 7?  

Second, she wrote it for a kinkmeme.   I don't think it was a "please-be-aware-of-these-horrible-social-issues!meme."  Get it right.

Third, hiding behind the first amendment for an excuse to express yourself with child molestation in your fanfiction is despicable.  It has absolutely no literary value when it's written for a community that thrives in KINK, and is NOT protected by the First Constitution.


Zevran. 


He grew up with Antivan ****s.  He never said anything about being molested by them.


Exactly. While there certainly is enough room in what he says to infer that there could have been molestation happening to him, to declare that room to be the same as "canon" is a bit of a stretch. It's never confirmed one way or the other in regards to Zevran.

As for characters in the books I have no idea. I never read them.

#8013
Creature 1

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Tasmen wrote...

Elysium-Fic wrote...
Ironically, it's not the ones who have voiced dissenting opinions who have been targeted for reprisal and harassment, as evidenced by the fact that it's the PoT supporters being trolled.  Of course, that may be because we're the ones with the temerity to put our names to our opinions.


Here, that is perhaps true though I don't know that I would call it harassment.  I'm seeing people having a discussion which I hope will remain constructive and not be taken personally.    Disagreeing ain't peeing on someone so to speak.

There are certain topics that do, however, result in some pretty heated conversation and the topic of children and acts against them is one of them.  Folks feel really strongly about it so much so that some feel the unspoken social contract* that we follow here in the states (certain rights are inalienable, yada yada) does not include protections for certain acts.   I can see how people could/would apply this belief to things like writings with possibly inflammatory content.  Though I should also note, the DA comm is hugely huge.  Not all participants in the fandom are from the US and thus do not necessarily prescribe to the tenants in the Bill of Rights.


Usually when people are waving the First Amendment they're saying "I can write whatever I want and you can't censor."  That's simplistic, because the government can't censor you, but communities can set up their own guidelines and people are either in or out.  Community guidelines can have unexpected results, though, like myself and others opting out of PoT because of their community rules. 

I imagine more people are speaking up here than on PoT about this because people tend to feel more comfortable in their own playground.  But I still stand by my opinion that there are more quiet folks out there that just don't bother than there are yappy folks and I say that as someone that can be rather yappy from time to time.


I didn't respond to PoT because my opinion was not welcome there, as was obvious from the mods locking threads where people were disagreeing with allowing of posting that fic in the first place.   Like kmeme, tent party has a "do not criticize" rule.  Unlike on kmeme, at tent party EVERYTHING is allowed, with no criticism. 

The way I think it ought to be in my imaginary ideal world :wub: is you can post anything--meaning authors can post whatever they like, and readers can criticize however they like, and other readers can jump to the authors' defense however they like.  The kmeme "no criticism" rule (sort of) works because they don't allow underage at all, and set the bar for age higher in the first place.  The kmeme rule is set up to protect the tender sensibilities of people who fear bashing for what they prompt or write, and any readers are advised to take their sensibilities elsewhere.  Why not go the other way around and make authors assume the risk?  (Though really readers would have equal risk, because they could get flamed for their critiques.)  That would have the effect of alienated as few people as possible.  And really, the only things that I've run across I can see much controversy arising over are non-con and underage.  I would think anon would be protection enough, if anyone's concerned over backlash.  

Modifié par Creature 1, 25 janvier 2011 - 10:42 .


#8014
Elysium-Fic

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Mahkara wrote...

Elysium-Fic wrote...

Katriel. Take that one up with Gaider.


I think you mean Fiona...


Yes,. you're right, sorry.  Either way, it's definitely the backstory of a canon character.

#8015
Mahkara

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Sagacious Rage wrote...

I'm also wondering how it's so well-known that the purpose was to troll. There was no rule against it before it was posted. Members of the community seemed to be against the idea of a rule banning the subject material after it was posted. So how can one be so sure that it wasn't written for titillation? If I was a person interested in such things and saw that attitude in a comm, I would expect that my work would be acceptable.


Yeah, I  hate to say it, but I'm kind of puzzled as to why suddenly we're coming down on the child porn poster as being a troll.  From what I can recall, certain members were backing the writer as someone who was probably just confused about proper protocol.  Plus, the fill wasn't against rules then *and* met the prompt criteria perfectly. (I think it was "please post the most disgusting thing you can think of - incest, rape, blood!")

#8016
Creature 1

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Mahkara wrote...

Sagacious Rage wrote...

I'm also wondering how it's so well-known that the purpose was to troll. There was no rule against it before it was posted. Members of the community seemed to be against the idea of a rule banning the subject material after it was posted. So how can one be so sure that it wasn't written for titillation? If I was a person interested in such things and saw that attitude in a comm, I would expect that my work would be acceptable.


Yeah, I  hate to say it, but I'm kind of puzzled as to why suddenly we're coming down on the child porn poster as being a troll.  From what I can recall, certain members were backing the writer as someone who was probably just confused about proper protocol.  Plus, the fill wasn't against rules then *and* met the prompt criteria perfectly. (I think it was "please post the most disgusting thing you can think of - incest, rape, blood!")


Retcon.  Down the memory hole.  Advise screenshot capture before history vanishes.  :lol:

#8017
Elysium-Fic

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Sagacious Rage wrote...
I'm also wondering how it's so well-known that the purpose was to troll.


It's an assumption, but it's one anyone with a modicum of common sense who read even the first few paragraphs would share (which I did, before I saw where it was going and stopped.)  It just pinged the troll-dar of everyone I speak with.

#8018
Rinji the Bearded

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Elysium-Fic wrote...

Mahkara wrote...

Elysium-Fic wrote...

Katriel. Take that one up with Gaider.


I think you mean Fiona...


Yes,. you're right, sorry.  Either way, it's definitely the backstory of a canon character.


Again, wasn't written for a kink!meme. There's a difference between the awareness of a character's tragic past and something that was meant to titilate.

In the words of Aerith, "this guy are sick."  I'm out.  This place is going nowhere fast, and I need a shower.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 25 janvier 2011 - 10:46 .


#8019
Sagacious Rage

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Elysium-Fic wrote...

Sagacious Rage wrote...
I'm also wondering how it's so well-known that the purpose was to troll.


It's an assumption, but it's one anyone with a modicum of common sense who read even the first few paragraphs would share (which I did, before I saw where it was going and stopped.)  It just pinged the troll-dar of everyone I speak with.


I'm just saying that's a pretty convenient assumption to make after the fact.

#8020
Sialater

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Can we just move on now? I think we've hashed this to death.


ETA:  And Zev learned erotic massage before being sold.  I'd say that's pretty bad.

Modifié par Sialater, 25 janvier 2011 - 10:48 .


#8021
Mahkara

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Creature 1 wrote...

Retcon.  Down the memory hole.  Advise screenshot capture before history vanishes.  :lol:


Hah hah, I know.  But I do remember at least a few people going, "oh, poor anon...they just needed a warning. And are very confused.".  I though I even remembered anon asking about how to insert a warning.  Then a lot of posts were deleted so WE SHALL NEVER KNOW.

#8022
Elysium-Fic

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Mahkara wrote...
Yeah, I  hate to say it, but I'm kind of puzzled as to why suddenly we're coming down on the child porn poster as being a troll.  From what I can recall, certain members were backing the writer as someone who was probably just confused about proper protocol.  Plus, the fill wasn't against rules then *and* met the prompt criteria perfectly. (I think it was "please post the most disgusting thing you can think of - incest, rape, blood!")


People reacted with moderation to it because they didn't want to jeapardize the policy of free and open exchange that is the heart and soul of what makes the comm so marvelous.  Had a witch hunt started, it would have been awful for the community.

Behind the scenes, in interpersonal discussions, there was a lot a lot a lot of, "Yeah, okay, no WAY that's not a troll."  Mainly because no one in their right mind would post that sort of material without warnings and expect everyone to be just dandy with it.

#8023
Addai

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Did I do this?  Image IPB

Wherever the ffnet troll- whose little britches have gotten waaaaay too much attention by now- is getting his/ her inspiration, it's not from whatever other site had whatever dust-ups.  At least not in my case, since I'm only aware that those sites exist because people on BSN talk about them.

#8024
Elysium-Fic

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Sagacious Rage wrote...

I'm just saying that's a pretty convenient assumption to make after the fact.


Well, it was the assumption made at the time in private discussions, but without proof, no one could say for certain and decided to err on the side of moderation.

#8025
DreGregoire

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edit: removed all of most recent entries because I don't want anything I say to associated with this tragic thread ever again.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 25 janvier 2011 - 11:21 .