10369 réponses à ce sujet

[Mahkara]

Elysium-Fic wrote...

Well, it was the assumption made at the time in private discussions, but without proof, no one could say for certain and decided to err on the side of moderation.

Regardless, for those of us not in the inner circle, it certainly looked as if the mods and users who post a lot were treating the child porn as just another kink.

[Ceylon]

Elysium-Fic wrote...

People reacted with moderation to it because they didn't want to
jeapardize the policy of free and open exchange that is the heart and
soul of what makes the comm so marvelous.

So, people were afraid to speak openly in a comm that was all about speaking openly?

Life isn't all about getting pats on the arse.  You can't have a community based on freedom of speech and then limit it to only positive feedback because you might upset something.

If somebody didn't like something, they have every right to say so.  Just as the people who write these disturbing things have every right to post them, as per the ideals of your community.

[darkrose]

RinjiRenee wrote...

First off, WHO was canonly raped at age 7?  

In "The Stolen Throne", Fiona talks about being sold as a slave to an Orlesian noble when she was 7 and kept as his "pet". The implication that she was sexually abused is kind of hard to miss.

Similarly, if you ever talk to Lenaya in the Dalish camp about her history, she will tell you that her parents were killed by bandits when she was a child, and that she was kept as their "servant" for many years. Again, the pause before she says "servant" is rather obvious.

Second, she wrote it for a kinkmeme.   I don't think it was a "please-be-aware-of-these-horrible-social-issues!meme."  Get it right.

Did you actually read the fic? I did, and as I stated before, it wasn't tittilating in the least. It also really wasn't what the OP was asking for, which is one of the reasons I suspect it was written as an attempt to start ******.

Regardless, there's no rule that I'm aware of that says that you can't raise serious issues in a DATP fic. 

Third, hiding behind the first amendment for an excuse to express yourself with child molestation in your fanfiction is despicable.  It has absolutely no literary value when it's written for a community that thrives in KINK, and is NOT protected by the First Constitution.

Well...no, actually. Under US law, clearly fictional representations of minors are, in fact, legal because they do not involve actual harm to real, live, children. I tend to save my outrage for actual children being abused, not fictional characters. 

However, I'm not, in fact, bringing up the First Amendment, especially since that only refers to what Congress can do anyway. It's more a personal thing: I prefer to err on the side of allowing more speech as the remedy to speech I find distasteful. I agree strongly with Voltaire that "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." 

[Elysium-Fic]

Mahkara wrote...
Regardless, for those of us not in the inner circle, it certainly looked as if the mods and users who post a lot were treating the child porn as just another kink.

The mods trod a fine line and I don't think anyone really appreciates what a difficult balance that is.

The community is predicated on a princple of free and open exchange.  That's why it was founded, because a lot of people were finding themselves unhappy with the strictures of other communities.  One of the reasons DW was chosen was because DW has a more open policy toward adult material.  At times, on LJ and other sites, you're one person with a grudge away from having your comm/fic journal shut down for "inappropriate" material.

Rules were set up regarding how to deal with adult-oriented material
that would leave the comm open to that material, but still give those
who don't want that the ability to avoid it, but unfortunately, the anonymous nature of a kmeme and the strictures of posting material in comments, rather than as posts, meant those rules could be circumvented.

So, the mods have to walk a really narrow balance beam between keeping the comm true to itself, while still implementing strictures to prevent this sort of HUGELY OUT OF THE ORDINARY situation from happening again.

I think they did it beautifully, but of course, YMMV.

[darkrose]

Mahkara wrote...

darkrose wrote...


And that to me, is where the problem lies. We're writing in a fandom where it's canon that one character was sexually abused starting at age 7. We're writing in a fandom where rape is (over)used as a plot device, and torture and racial violence are everyday occurrences. If you start saying that sexual content involving children is banned, then you also ban any look at the backstory of many characters. Writing about something doesn't automatically mean that the author condones that action or is presenting it in a positive light. Implying that there's no difference between sex involving minors that's intended to show how awful a situation is and sex involving minors that is meant to tittilate assumed that writers are too incompetent and readers are to stupid to understand that disctinction. I

Again, I don't really mind the heavy themes. What I do mind is them being used as ****** fodder.  I think that if someone was writing a story where Zevran's abuse, say, was alluded to...or even where he suffered it in a well researched and sensitive manner - great!  But treating it like porn?  That's where I'd draw the line.  And unfortunately, from what I can recall, the child porn story was written for the kmeme...as is a lot of the "dark" stuff.

Writing something for the kink meme doesn't mean it's automatically ****** fodder. I actually read that fic, and it may have been posted on the kmeme, but it didn't read as remotely hot to me. 

A lot of dark stuff gets written for the kink meme not because it's tittilating, but because you can post it anonymously (but you don't have to), and for some people, that's more comfortable. This misconception that if it's on the kink meme it's intended as ****** fodder seems to be causing a lot of the confusion here.

[Mahkara]

darkrose wrote...


In "The Stolen Throne", Fiona talks about being sold as a slave to an Orlesian noble when she was 7 and kept as his "pet". The implication that she was sexually abused is kind of hard to miss.



Did you actually read the fic? I did, and as I stated before, it wasn't tittilating in the least. It also really wasn't what the OP was asking for, which is one of the reasons I suspect it was written as an attempt to start ******.

First, it was "The Calling". I'm anal, yes, but...still...

Second, I haven't read the fic, so I have no idea what it was about/like. But I did read the prompt. It asked for the darkest, most disturbing stuff someone could come up with. The text in question is:



Incest, darkfic, non-con, whatever, let's have something gritty and bad up in here[/b] 
(Anonymous) 
2010-12-09 10:43 pm UTC ([/i]link)Let's break some taboos and go for the nasty stuff.

Maybe Beraht is getting annoyed with m!Brosca and/or Rica and decides to put them in their place by making them have sex for his amusement.

Maybe Bhelen screws m! or f!Aeducan over in more ways than one.

Just how awful was life for Delilah Howe at Vigil's Keep? Was it her father, or her brother, or both making it that way?

Maybe m!Tabris sells Shianni to Vaughan and stays around to have a turn. Maybe he and Soris save Shianni from Vaughan only to demand payment for services rendered. Maybe m!Tabris doesn't rescue Soris from the Arl of Amaranthine's dungeon until he's taken advantage of the situation.

Maybe Loghain's first act after leaving Cailan to his death is to try to pass off his own VERY Mac Tir offspring as Cailan's heir.

Then there's Cailan/Alistair, and of course Fergus and Bryce Cousland, with each other or with m! or f! Cousland.

I'm not that concerned with spot-on characterization, but if you can make it work, that's great, and if it takes non-con to make it work, even better.

I'm also not picky about pairing, though I prefer slash or het over femslash (sorry, I love the ****.) Multiple fills with different pairings/groupings (heheh) welcome.

Bonus points for pain, and lots of fluids. Just make it DIRTY. And HOT.

I'm not sure how a story about child molestation doesn't fit in with that theme.  And, again, TBH, I'd really, really rather read about child molestation as troll bait than as titillation.  Maybe it's my crazy upbringing, but I find the idea of sexually assaulting a child to be sick and disturbing, not something that's appropriate for ****** fodder. 

[Sagacious Rage]

darkrose wrote...


Writing something for the kink meme doesn't mean it's automatically ****** fodder. I actually read that fic, and it may have been posted on the kmeme, but it didn't read as remotely hot to me. 

A lot of dark stuff gets written for the kink meme not because it's tittilating, but because you can post it anonymously (but you don't have to), and for some people, that's more comfortable. This misconception that if it's on the kink meme it's intended as ****** fodder seems to be causing a lot of the confusion here.

Well I would say the name is probably part of the problem. And all the graphics. And all the prompts. And all the fills.

Are you seriously arguing that the purpose of a kinkmeme is not to post porn? Because there are PROMPTmemes out there. If people want to write serious fic anonymously there are some very simple ways to go about it. Going to the kinkmeme for that purpose is counterproductive, to say the least.

[Prisoner24601]

Elysium-Fic wrote...

The community is predicated on a princple of free and open exchange. 

No it's not.  Both PoT and the DW kmeme communities are founded on the principle that YKINMK - and that no criticism is allowed of fics like that.

Any fic is cool as long as it's about sex, but people aren't allowed to say things like "Dude, that's some seriously messed up mysogynistic thing you've got going on there" or "Hmmm.... I think the way you used a child in this fic is sensationalist or exploitative.

You can't have a "free exchange of ideas" when only one side is allowed to speak. Which is fine, your community, your rules, but own up what that comm is and what it isn't.

[Mahkara]

darkrose wrote...


Writing something for the kink meme doesn't mean it's automatically ****** fodder. I actually read that fic, and it may have been posted on the kmeme, but it didn't read as remotely hot to me. 

A lot of dark stuff gets written for the kink meme not because it's tittilating, but because you can post it anonymously (but you don't have to), and for some people, that's more comfortable. This misconception that if it's on the kink meme it's intended as ****** fodder seems to be causing a lot of the confusion here.

I'll take your word for it (in part in that I really don't want to think of child porn being used as ****** fodder).  And if something like that is posted, I'd honestly prefer it not to be hot.

That said, though, I think that these mistakes in comprehension occur as it is, well...a kink meme.  The prompt in question asked for stuff that went really dark. And a lot of other stuff that is posted as, well, porn on POT is not that much less dark than the prompt in question.  

I do understand that modding this kind of thing is tough (and that there's a very fine line as to what is/is not acceptable). BUT, I don't think that it should be that surprising that when a comm posts large numbers of dark fics as porn (some of which do involve children being assaulted), then posts a prompt asking for the darkest porn someone can think of, that when someone then posts a child molestation fic that us outsiders think that it's meant as well...porn.

[Elysium-Fic]

Prisoner24601 wrote...

Any fic is cool as long as it's about sex, but people aren't allowed to say things like "Dude, that's some seriously messed up mysogynistic thing you've got going on there" or "Hmmm.... I think the way you used a child in this fic is sensationalist or exploitative.

This isn't true.  I was on vacation for the Con-Crit brainstorming post, but I seem to recall the consensus was "Don't be a dick."  Doesn't mean you can't say something didn't work for you, and why.  Just means you need to be respectful about it and respectful of the concept that what doesn't work for you might work for someone else.

It ain't difficult.

[darkrose]

Mahkara wrote...

Sagacious Rage wrote...

I'm also wondering how it's so well-known that the purpose was to troll. There was no rule against it before it was posted. Members of the community seemed to be against the idea of a rule banning the subject material after it was posted. So how can one be so sure that it wasn't written for titillation? If I was a person interested in such things and saw that attitude in a comm, I would expect that my work would be acceptable.

Yeah, I  hate to say it, but I'm kind of puzzled as to why suddenly we're coming down on the child porn poster as being a troll.  From what I can recall, certain members were backing the writer as someone who was probably just confused about proper protocol.  Plus, the fill wasn't against rules then *and* met the prompt criteria perfectly. (I think it was "please post the most disgusting thing you can think of - incest, rape, blood!")

Uh, no, that wasn't the prompt. The prompt was "post something dark and possibly taboo that might be uncomfortable". It was not "post the most disgusting thing you can think of".

I don't know for sure that the author was a troll. However, the fact that no one commented on it for several days, and that the ****** didn't start until after the mod responded to private requests and screened the posts kind of pinged my troll meter. When the anons showed up and pretty much accused the comm of being a bunch of child pornographers, I started to wonder if that wasn't the intent of the post, especially since the poster never attempted to clarify or say much of anything.

Modifié par darkrose, 25 janvier 2011 - 11:29 .

[darkrose]

Sagacious Rage wrote...

darkrose wrote...


Writing something for the kink meme doesn't mean it's automatically ****** fodder. I actually read that fic, and it may have been posted on the kmeme, but it didn't read as remotely hot to me. 

A lot of dark stuff gets written for the kink meme not because it's tittilating, but because you can post it anonymously (but you don't have to), and for some people, that's more comfortable. This misconception that if it's on the kink meme it's intended as ****** fodder seems to be causing a lot of the confusion here.

Well I would say the name is probably part of the problem. And all the graphics. And all the prompts. And all the fills.

Are you seriously arguing that the purpose of a kinkmeme is not to post porn? Because there are PROMPTmemes out there. If people want to write serious fic anonymously there are some very simple ways to go about it. Going to the kinkmeme for that purpose is counterproductive, to say the least.

No, I'm saying that more things than porn get posted to kink memes.

[Prisoner24601]

Elysium-Fic wrote...

Prisoner24601 wrote...

Any fic is cool as long as it's about sex, but people aren't allowed to say things like "Dude, that's some seriously messed up mysogynistic thing you've got going on there" or "Hmmm.... I think the way you used a child in this fic is sensationalist or exploitative.

This isn't true.  I was on vacation for the Con-Crit brainstorming post, but I seem to recall the consensus was "Don't be a dick."  Doesn't mean you can't say something didn't work for you, and why.  Just means you need to be respectful about it and respectful of the concept that what doesn't work for you might work for someone else.

It ain't difficult.

And how many times exactly have you clutched your pearls and handwrung about YKINMK?  Shimmy flat out said in other discussions that if involves criticism of a kink or the sex or how people are using sex disrepectfully or whether or not someone was offended, it was off limits. 

Come on.   There is a reason why no one leaves crit on that comm.  You can't have a YKINMK and also claim that you're for free speech when any speech or dissent gets shut down.

So just own it and stop trying to pretend that it's some sort of open minded, inclusive community.

[Mahkara]

darkrose wrote...

Uh, no, that wasn't the prompt. The prompt was "post something dark and possibly taboo that might be uncomfortable". It was not "post the most disgusting thing you can think of".

I don't know for sure that the author was a troll. However, the fact that no one commented on it for several days, and that the ****** didn't start until after the mod responded to private requests and screened the posts kind of pinged my troll meter. When the anons showed up and pretty much accused the comm of being a bunch of child pornographers, I started to wonder if that wasn't the intent of the post, especially since the poster never attempted to clarify or say much of anything.

OK, you're right, but still...the line between "post something dark and taboo and gritty" that gives examples of Howe or Nathaniel raping Delilah is....pretty in line with someone being molested, I'd think.

I'd agree that OP didn't say much of anything. But it's hard to tell whether that was because they were trolling or because after the backlash, they decided that arguing was a waste of breath.  (That said, I do wonder about anyone who'd post child molestation without expecting a backlash. Then again, that HAD happened previously on POT.)

[Elysium-Fic]

Prisoner24601 wrote...

And how many times exactly have you clutched your pearls and handwrung about YKINMK?  Shimmy flat out said in other discussions that if involves criticism of a kink or the sex or how people are using sex disrepectfully or whether or not someone was offended, it was off limits. 

That's not what was said at all.  But clearly you have an axe to grind with the way Shimmy mods the comm (apparently "don't be a dick" is too restrictive?), so whatever.

[Addai]

Ok, uh... I reaaaallly don't want to know about all this. That's why I don't go to the kinkmeme sites, because I don't care to see what gets some people off (recognizing that there is innocuous stuff there as well etc. etc.) And I agree with whatever poster said this is supposed to be a fairly safe and supportive environment. Can we move the discussion on or those involved can PM or something? Not trying to thread nanny, but a couple people have already said they'd like to move on and I agree.

[darkrose]

Having had the experience of being told to my face that I am a bad person and a bad feminist because I'm kinky, I like having a community where I can explore edgier kinks and darker material in general without feeling like I'm being judged for my choice of subject matter. I'm sorry that one incident, that in my view was handled properly by the mods, is being used to paint the entire comm as a bunch of enablers at best and pedophiles at worst.



This appears to have turned into the kind of game where the only way to win is not to play, so I'm going to bow out.

[Sarah1281]

@Mahkara: Damn, even just reading that prompt made me uncomfortable...

[Creature 1]

Creature 1 wrote...

Mahkara wrote...
Yeah, I  hate to say it, but I'm kind of puzzled as to why suddenly we're coming down on the child porn poster as being a troll.  From what I can recall, certain members were backing the writer as someone who was probably just confused about proper protocol.  Plus, the fill wasn't against rules then *and* met the prompt criteria perfectly. (I think it was "please post the most disgusting thing you can think of - incest, rape, blood!")

Retcon.  Down the memory hole.  Advise screenshot capture before history vanishes. 

ROFL!!  TOO LATE!  Thread has vanished.    Perhaps the wayback machine can help me. 

Edit:  Wayback machine is blocked by robots.txt.  I'll have to remember that in case I ever want to retcon something.  

Modifié par Creature 1, 25 janvier 2011 - 11:55 .

[Mahkara]

Sarah1281 wrote...

@Mahkara: Damn, even just reading that prompt made me uncomfortable...

...sorry.  

I was kind of disturbed by it as well.  Especially as I don't think that it was designed as troll bait.

[Elysium-Fic]

Addai67 wrote...

Ok, uh... I reaaaallly don't want to know about all this. That's why I don't go to the kinkmeme sites, because I don't care to see what gets some people off (recognizing that there is innocuous stuff there as well etc. etc.) And I agree with whatever poster said this is supposed to be a fairly safe and supportive environment. Can we move the discussion on or those involved can PM or something? Not trying to thread nanny, but a couple people have already said they'd like to move on and I agree.

I agree, it's time to move on.  Clearly there are people with axes to grind who want to besmirch the reps of others to do it.  Very futile.

[Creature 1]

Elysium-Fic wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Ok, uh... I reaaaallly don't want to know about all this. That's why I don't go to the kinkmeme sites, because I don't care to see what gets some people off (recognizing that there is innocuous stuff there as well etc. etc.) And I agree with whatever poster said this is supposed to be a fairly safe and supportive environment. Can we move the discussion on or those involved can PM or something? Not trying to thread nanny, but a couple people have already said they'd like to move on and I agree.

I agree, it's time to move on.  Clearly there are people with axes to grind who want to besmirch the reps of others to do it.  Very futile.

I can see why you prefer the PoT echo chamber. 

[Ceylon]

I want an axe. Can I have an axe? I heard they were everywhere in here.

[Mahkara]

Elysium-Fic wrote...

This isn't true.  I was on vacation for the Con-Crit brainstorming post, but I seem to recall the consensus was "Don't be a dick."  Doesn't mean you can't say something didn't work for you, and why.  Just means you need to be respectful about it and respectful of the concept that what doesn't work for you might work for someone else.

It ain't difficult.

From what I recall, the end result was:

"If someone asks for concrit, we do not rewrite their fic for them. We look at their art and suggest ways that they can make it better. It is up to the author to decide whether or not the feedback is useful, and not get defensive unless the person giving concrit was rude. 

"If you are rude to an author, you cannot turn around and moan that “they just can't take concrit.” What they “can't take,” sirs and madames, is your tone. That is not a problem on their end. End of story. "

Maybe I'm mis-interpreting, but I'm inclined to go with Pris on this one...it is hard for me to see the above as evidence that someone is allowed to say, "hey, your fic really offended me for these reasons". As, yeah, most authors will get offended by that, which then goes against the word of MOD.

[Elysium-Fic]

Mahkara wrote...

Elysium-Fic wrote...

This isn't true.  I was on vacation for the Con-Crit brainstorming post, but I seem to recall the consensus was "Don't be a dick."  Doesn't mean you can't say something didn't work for you, and why.  Just means you need to be respectful about it and respectful of the concept that what doesn't work for you might work for someone else.

It ain't difficult.

From what I recall, the end result was:

"If someone asks for concrit, we do not rewrite their fic for them. We look at their art and suggest ways that they can make it better. It is up to the author to decide whether or not the feedback is useful, and not get defensive unless the person giving concrit was rude. 

"If you are rude to an author, you cannot turn around and moan that “they just can't take concrit.” What they “can't take,” sirs and madames, is your tone. That is not a problem on their end. End of story. "

Maybe I'm mis-interpreting, but I'm inclined to go with Pris on this one...it is hard for me to see the above as evidence that someone is allowed to say, "hey, your fic really offended me for these reasons". As, yeah, most authors will get offended by that, which then goes against the word of MOD.

See the bolded, red part.  That pretty much says it all right there.  Absolutely nothing in that statement is anathema to respectful concrit.

Modifié par Elysium-Fic, 26 janvier 2011 - 12:18 .