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Fanfiction Sucks


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#8276
Addai

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Mahkara wrote...
Readers can really, really help by voicing these opinions, I think.  Now, admittedly, not all authors want to hear this.  AND of course, there are matters of taste.  But, simultaneously, it's good to know this kind of thing.  And everyone has opinions, whether they share them or not.

I agree, and cherish this kind of feedback even if it stings.  I put a note on my profile giving permission to critique.  I may or may not end up agreeing with the criticism, but it's always interesting to hear what resonates and what sits sour with a reader.  I also appreciate readers keeping me on my toes with lore and accuracy.

Modifié par Addai67, 31 janvier 2011 - 10:30 .


#8277
DreGregoire

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Oh my goodness, my fanfiction sucks; all kinds of misspellings and errors and over wordy-ness. Now I have to tear it all down and write it again. hahaha. Nah I'll just have to edit and replace. I would try to get a beta but I find errors in people's stories that have beta's so I'm not sure it would help me any. LOL. Writing FanFiction Sucks! LOL. *get's excited about the process of reworking her fanfiction.*

#8278
Mahkara

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Addai67 wrote...


I agree, and cherish this kind of feedback even if it stings.  I put a note on my profile giving permission to critique.  I may or may not end up agreeing with the criticism, but it's always interesting to hear what resonates and what sits sour with a reader.  I also appreciate readers keeping me on my toes with lore and accuracy.


Yeah, I've heard that addage that writers need to have thick skins.   A lot of this is that in order to improve, you need to figure out what you are/are not doing well.  Which generally hurts to hear. And it's not always true!  I mean, some of the time, people say, "This isn't working for me" and they are the one lone person who feels that way.  But I've found that often in public critiques, you'll see a reviewer say, "This isn't working..." then the author blows it off, just for another three to chime in.  It's really, really hard to see your own work objectively. It sucks, but it's part of why any critique tends to be so valuable.

#8279
Mahkara

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DreGregoire wrote...

Oh my goodness, my fanfiction sucks; all kinds of misspellings and errors and over wordy-ness. Now I have to tear it all down and write it again. hahaha. Nah I'll just have to edit and replace. I would try to get a beta but I find errors in people's stories that have beta's so I'm not sure it would help me any. LOL. Writing FanFiction Sucks! LOL. *get's excited about the process of reworking her fanfiction.*


The truth is, a beta can only help so much. They generally can't take something that was poorly written and convert it into something brilliant.

Also, betas differ. There are a lot who just hand hold.  Others will do what mine do (and what I do for other people) and actually cut out half the story, redo bits of the plot, undo and redo characters, etc.  Some are brilliant copy editors who will catch 99% of errors that go by them, others will pick up one mis-placed comma and call it quits.

How much a beta help depends on a lot of factors (under both the beta and author's control). But I'd generally argue that having a beta > not having one, just as it's an extra pair of eyes who can do anything from go, "um...typos" to "um...major plot holes".  Again, some betas are going to catch this kind of thing, some aren't.  Some authors will react well to the beta, some will ignore them.  A beta =/= instant genius.  But it's generally better than nothing.  And, hey, even if they only correct one spelling mistake, that's still one less one in the finished product.

#8280
mousestalker

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Mahkara wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


I agree, and cherish this kind of feedback even if it stings.  I put a note on my profile giving permission to critique.  I may or may not end up agreeing with the criticism, but it's always interesting to hear what resonates and what sits sour with a reader.  I also appreciate readers keeping me on my toes with lore and accuracy.


Yeah, I've heard that addage that writers need to have thick skins.   A lot of this is that in order to improve, you need to figure out what you are/are not doing well.  Which generally hurts to hear. And it's not always true!  I mean, some of the time, people say, "This isn't working for me" and they are the one lone person who feels that way.  But I've found that often in public critiques, you'll see a reviewer say, "This isn't working..." then the author blows it off, just for another three to chime in.  It's really, really hard to see your own work objectively. It sucks, but it's part of why any critique tends to be so valuable.


I'm anything but objective about my writing. I can't even spot my own typos. That's why I very much appreciate criticism, even the ones that sting.

What I have difficulty with is responding to it with anything other than "Thank you for reading", especially if the criticism has merit.

#8281
DreGregoire

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wow I kept posting here the last couple of days. I get chatty and share too much when my temperature is over 102. Sorry about that. LOL. *sneaks off to go back to being the non-heard from element she desires to be*

#8282
mousestalker

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DreGregoire wrote...

wow I kept posting here the last couple of days. I get chatty and share too much when my temperature is over 102. Sorry about that. LOL. *sneaks off to go back to being the non-heard from element she desires to be*


If you have that kind of temperature, be sure to get plenty of rest and drink lots of fluids. Broth of some kind is probably a good idea.

#8283
jackkel dragon

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I've heard that nug soup can help. Then again, I was also told that dragon blood tastes like kool-aid.



Anyway, try to get better Dre. :)

#8284
Sarah1281

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DreGregoire wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...

Meh, Zath had it coming. And apparently wanted to die. O_O.


I've never played it that way. Did the curse end or does it continue?


Apparently, after receiving Witherfang's heart and killing the werewolves (and only if Zathrian is present, as if you were going to lift the curse) you can ask Zathrian if his clan would be fine without him. He says that Lanaya can make the cure from the heart. You can then say "I don't need you anymore, then." Zevran and Shale approve! High cunning characters can tell that Zathrien wants the warden to kill them.
Posted Image

So, werewolves dead but Lanaya heals the elves and joins the big army at Redcliffe later.


tsk, that's just cheap. The curse should have to continue *winks*

Hard for a curse to continue if everyone infected with it including the originator is dead.

#8285
DreGregoire

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Sarah1281 wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...

Meh, Zath had it coming. And apparently wanted to die. O_O.


I've never played it that way. Did the curse end or does it continue?


Apparently, after receiving Witherfang's heart and killing the werewolves (and only if Zathrian is present, as if you were going to lift the curse) you can ask Zathrian if his clan would be fine without him. He says that Lanaya can make the cure from the heart. You can then say "I don't need you anymore, then." Zevran and Shale approve! High cunning characters can tell that Zathrien wants the warden to kill them.
Posted Image

So, werewolves dead but Lanaya heals the elves and joins the big army at Redcliffe later.


tsk, that's just cheap. The curse should have to continue *winks*

Hard for a curse to continue if everyone infected with it including the originator is dead.


Who scoured the woods to find every last werewolfe? And it clearly says that his death will not end the curse in of itself. Without the easy out of Lanaya's ability to cancel the curse, a dead Zathrian means the curse would not end.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 01 février 2011 - 12:55 .


#8286
jackkel dragon

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They still had the heart, which was what Zathrian needed to end the curse without dying. Except I killed him anyway.

#8287
Sarah1281

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The heart doesn't END the curse, it just cures those already infected who have not yet transformed.

#8288
Shinobu

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mousestalker wrote...

Mahkara wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


I agree, and cherish this kind of feedback even if it stings.  I put a note on my profile giving permission to critique.  I may or may not end up agreeing with the criticism, but it's always interesting to hear what resonates and what sits sour with a reader.  I also appreciate readers keeping me on my toes with lore and accuracy.


Yeah, I've heard that addage that writers need to have thick skins.   A lot of this is that in order to improve, you need to figure out what you are/are not doing well.  Which generally hurts to hear. And it's not always true!  I mean, some of the time, people say, "This isn't working for me" and they are the one lone person who feels that way.  But I've found that often in public critiques, you'll see a reviewer say, "This isn't working..." then the author blows it off, just for another three to chime in.  It's really, really hard to see your own work objectively. It sucks, but it's part of why any critique tends to be so valuable.


I'm anything but objective about my writing. I can't even spot my own typos. That's why I very much appreciate criticism, even the ones that sting.

What I have difficulty with is responding to it with anything other than "Thank you for reading", especially if the criticism has merit.


*delurking* I have difficulty both as a writer and as a consumer of fanfic. As a writer I reread my own stuff so many times I become unable to change it -- it's like it burns ruts in my brain. This leads to a lot of scraps of fic where I've sort of written myself into a corner, and seeing no way out, I give up. As a beta I'm good at catching the mechanical stuff (typos, especially) and fairly good with OOCness but I'm not so good with plot and I really  dislike giving negative feedback, so I'm more likely to never respond if I don't like something -- and then feel super guilty for not writing back. I'll also go over a fic line by line, so it becomes way too much work for me and may turn off the person I'm beta-ing for. (One of the reasons I haven't tried to get a beta for my own scraps is that I don't feel able to promise to reciprocate.) Addai, I'll feel more free to concrit for you since you like it. (Not that I've found anything to criticize!);)

#8289
maxernst

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mousestalker wrote...

Mahkara wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


I agree, and cherish this kind of feedback even if it stings.  I put a note on my profile giving permission to critique.  I may or may not end up agreeing with the criticism, but it's always interesting to hear what resonates and what sits sour with a reader.  I also appreciate readers keeping me on my toes with lore and accuracy.


Yeah, I've heard that addage that writers need to have thick skins.   A lot of this is that in order to improve, you need to figure out what you are/are not doing well.  Which generally hurts to hear. And it's not always true!  I mean, some of the time, people say, "This isn't working for me" and they are the one lone person who feels that way.  But I've found that often in public critiques, you'll see a reviewer say, "This isn't working..." then the author blows it off, just for another three to chime in.  It's really, really hard to see your own work objectively. It sucks, but it's part of why any critique tends to be so valuable.


I'm anything but objective about my writing. I can't even spot my own typos. That's why I very much appreciate criticism, even the ones that sting.

What I have difficulty with is responding to it with anything other than "Thank you for reading", especially if the criticism has merit.


I'm also terrible about spotting typos in my own work--I think you just read what's in your head instead of what's actually before you.  Sometimes I think I'm better not even to reread it because often it's during the editing process that I mess things up by leaving behind pieces of the sentence that no longer make sense.  But I wouldn't have problems reading other people's stuff for grammar and spelling.  It's the substantive criticisms that I'd have a hard time offering because sometimes it's a question of personal taste or how I see a particular character. 

I think there's also a review/critique distinction that's worth keeping.  A review, ideally, should give potential readers some idea of whether a story is likely to interest them.  A critique should give feedback to the writer as to how successful the work was and how it might be improved--and might be better handled in a PM than as a public review.

#8290
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Except you need an account to send a PM, and there are a fair number of readers on FF.Net who don't have them.

#8291
Sandbox47

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Ah... I don't really want to read through hundreds of pages at the moment but... Fanficiton can be really fun. Just fanfiction.net and have a look. You will find a lot of bad fanficiton, but there are some really good ones as well. It's just a matter of taste.

#8292
Raonar

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Sandbox47 wrote...

Ah... I don't really want to read through hundreds of pages at the moment but... Fanficiton can be really fun. Just fanfiction.net and have a look. You will find a lot of bad fanficiton, but there are some really good ones as well. It's just a matter of taste.


Ah, you got fooled by the title, like I was at first. This thread is actually about how everyone likes and writes fanfiction ;) Where we all come and trade ideas and stuff.

The thread starter was actually a sort of irony to how authors sometimes write thousands of words and end up not liking their own work. :D

And yes, though there is a lot of bad fanfiction on FF.net, there are really great works too.

EDIT

if I misunderstoood your post, feel free to virtually clobber mine ;)

Modifié par Raonar, 01 février 2011 - 09:53 .


#8293
Shadow of Light Dragon

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*hands over rubber mallet*



Let the punishment begin!

#8294
ZerbanDaGreat1

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You want sucky fanfiction? MINE IS A SELF-INSTERT! MWUHAHAHAHAHAHA!



*is pummeled from all sides by rotten fruit*

#8295
Sialater

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Sandbox47 wrote...

Ah... I don't really want to read through hundreds of pages at the moment but... Fanficiton can be really fun. Just fanfiction.net and have a look. You will find a lot of bad fanficiton, but there are some really good ones as well. It's just a matter of taste.


It was more along the lines of Fanfiction's a Harsh Mistress.

#8296
DreGregoire

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Oh sure let the beatings begin while I'm still sound asleep. *sniffs* I see the way it is. LOL

#8297
Mahkara

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maxernst wrote...

I'm also terrible about spotting typos in my own work--I think you just read what's in your head instead of what's actually before you.  Sometimes I think I'm better not even to reread it because often it's during the editing process that I mess things up by leaving behind pieces of the sentence that no longer make sense.  But I wouldn't have problems reading other people's stuff for grammar and spelling.  It's the substantive criticisms that I'd have a hard time offering because sometimes it's a question of personal taste or how I see a particular character. 

I think there's also a review/critique distinction that's worth keeping.  A review, ideally, should give potential readers some idea of whether a story is likely to interest them.  A critique should give feedback to the writer as to how successful the work was and how it might be improved--and might be better handled in a PM than as a public review.


It's really hard to spot your own errors.  The more you write/critique/receive critiques, generally the better you become.  (Like, I can often go, "Oooh...I've seen this problem a lot, woops, I just made it!" or alternately, "I've been warned about the adverbs and, yup, 12 in one paragraph. Time to clip!")  But, generally I've found that both giving and receiving critiques helps a lot with this process.

Now I disagree with you public critique thing for a few reasons:

1)  Giving a critique is kind of a pain, particularly a thorough one. But, quite frankly, even saying, "Your POV shifts confuse me" is more work than just not saying anything (especially as you know you may get a flame).  Now, I'll agree that if this is someone who's spent hours and hours of time helping me improve my work, I'm cool with the whole "we'll do this however you want it". BUT, if this is a total stranger who has never read/commented on my work, I owe them *nothing*.   So then it becomes a question of, "would this stranger rather know or not know that one of the reasons they're averaging 1 comment or less per chapter is probably that readers are thrown off by the POV changes?"  I don't know. But if we say, "No concrit in a review, only via PM!", you're going to scare off a lot of people who *might* tell you that kind of thing.  (But who possibly couldn't be bothered to send the PM.)  Essentially, the concritter is giving their time free of charge to the person they are reviewing.  So, really, I think that they get to choose the way they format their critiques.  Not the author. Of course, if the author doesn't want this, they can always put "please do not concrit".   (Although you are bound to scare off some readers that way.)  I mean, if I thought that in this fandom authors wanted it, I would give a critique to everything that I read.  Even if I only read two paragraphs.  Because it still only takes me about two seconds to say, "The reason I stopped reading this fic was X", and that knowledge can be incredibly helpful to a writer.  (Hell, I wish I knew why people stopped reading my stories, you know?)  But I'm not going to do much more than scroll down the page to hit the "review" button (or "comment" button on LJ) because I'm lazy.  Unless, of course, this is someone who's done something for me in the past and I feel semi-obliged to help them out.

2)  Other people learn from public concrit.  This is a way of making concrit go that much farther, particularly the super thorough critiques that take a half hour or more  (a solid, thorough critique takes 30-60 minutes).  For instance, if I post a story, and my beta critiques it publicly, not only do I learn from my mistakes, but other people can learn.  For instance, if my beta says, "You kind of went OOC here with Alistair" and "I found this section hard to follow" and "the pacing was off here", people who read the story and possibly disliked it for those reasons, but weren't able to articulate them, now know what was wrong with the fic.  They now can look for similar problems in their own stories, and in stories of people who they are concritting.  This is part of why in writing workshops most critiquing is public, not private.

Now, I think that it's 100% fair to say, "I'm writing fanfiction as a hobby, I don't really care if I improve" or "my ego is super fragile" or whatever.  But if you write "I want concrit!" in your author's note, I think that it's fair to expect it in your reviews.  And if you really, really don't want it, the best approach is probably to say, "Please don't give me concrit" or "if you want to give me concrit, please PM!" in an author's note.

#8298
Sarah1281

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.  Because it still only takes me about two seconds to say, "The reason I stopped reading this fic was X", and that knowledge can be incredibly helpful to a writer.

Although sometimes it's for a stupid reason like someone finally getting the picture that you're not going to pair their favorite couple up. Posted Image

#8299
mousestalker

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There's another part of the concrit thingy. If you mention a gun being on the mantle in the first chapter, sometimes a reader will comment "I thought it awfully careless to have a gun on the mantle. I can't believe the hero would do such a thing." Meanwhile the whole reason you mentioned the gun in the first place is that you have plotted it out so it will be used in chapter eight. The story simply won't work unless that gun is in that particular spot.




#8300
DreGregoire

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*sighs* You all just need to stop shifting my view of things. Here I was all set in my ways (being old and all) and now I'm all. "Hmmm, maybe I should... or maybe I could." It's just not right I tell you, but go ahead keep on talking and essentially enticing me to change my thinking. Before you know it I won't recognize me.

:P