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#8651
Glorfindel709

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And Zerban, here's my take on it.
1) I always thought that the Demons and Spirits were two signs of the same coin, meant to be the opposing symmetry reflecting the duality of human emotion and possibility, our baser reactions over our higher potentials. That being said, if Demons are corrupted spirits, I imagine that a Desire demon might come from a spirit of Justice or Knowledge. A spirit that is seeking truth corrupted into a demon that deals primarily with the lies or half-truths the seeker desires.


2) The stacking of Demons based on their power has to do with their power in The Fade. In the Fade, spirits and demons can create whatever they have power to mold over, the more powerful you are the more you can effect. (It also is a reference to Catholic Dogma and the Cardinal Sins but meh). Sloth(Broken Circle) is far more powerful than desire, rage, hunger demons that guard the inner sanctum because he controls the largest sector of the Fade and subjugates them to operate in his realm through little realms that they can control, so long as they bow to his power. Not only that, but I think that the power in Demons also has to do with what they can do for you. The more powerful ones (Desire and Pride) seek to tempt you into giving into their will willingly, while the less powerful (Rage, Hunger, Sloth) seem to rely on ensnaring you against your will and then through force possess you.

This is best evidenced by the test in the Magi Origin where, I believe, Mouse is a Pride Demon whose offer is insidious but is an attempt to get you to willfully accept him where the Rage demon just wants to jump your bones and take a walk in your skin Buffalo Bill style. The danger and power in those stronger demons is that they gain power over you because you have to want them to.

3) Blood Mages, from everything that is told to us, are supposed to be extremely powerful. When they control minds, they can cause civil wars without the nobles even realizing they're being controlled (Avernus) and even relatively weak and untrained ones like Jowan floored 5 templars and the First Enchanter with a single wound. A single blood mage can propel you into the fade to do an exorcism, something that requires more than 4 mages who were available at the time (Jowan, Myself, Wynne, and Morrigan) and a buttload of lyrium to accomplish The drawback from this power is of course that if youre using your own blood as Mana you'll probably kill yourself.

In order for Blood Magic to come off as non super powered and story breaking, it needs to have those drawbacks. When Ven used blood control, it should have debilitating effects on him atleast until he sees a healer and knocks back a potion or three (and yes, I refuse to call things I drink a poultice)

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 13 février 2011 - 08:17 .


#8652
Shadow of Light Dragon

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1. Hmm...Benevolence? Maybe a spirit who used to give people what (it thought?) they needed turned into a demon who started to tempt people with what they wanted.

2. I wouldn't say the Pride demon is weak...it's definitely more formiddable, combat-wise, than the other demons. The Pride demon in Awakening can even tear the veil (or make portals) and allow more demons into the world during combat. That's not something the lesser demons appear able to accomplish. Also in Awakening, the Pride demon pulls an entire *village* into the Fade, which kinda trumps the Sloth demon's four :)

I think we just have to remember there's only so much the devs would allow the game Pride demons to do, in terms of ability, since they were not our major focus in the game and were more things to be defeated than beings to bargain with. There *is* a third pride demon in the Deep Roads you can set free if you so choose...

3) The blood mages in the alienage out in front of the hostpice use Blood Control on the elves, actually. I was horrified when some of them attacked my CE o_O The devs actually remove Shianni from the area when that happens. XD

IMO, blood mages have powerful spells, but in all things the strength of their magic depends on their training and personal abilities (in game mechanics, spellpower and magic). Some may be true virtuosos while others grasp the basics but lack finesse, so let's say they can cast the spells but can't use them to their full potential.

Take Blood Control, which is a high tier spell. The spell is meant to grant full control over another creature's body, which to me implies there has to be a certain amount of concentration and understanding of the creature's anatomy to get it moving properly. Having a remote control in your hand doesn't mean you'll make the mobile airplane fly without nosediving into the ground, it requires practise and familiarity with the controls. Any kid can make the plane move around, but there's a huge difference between trundling along in the ground and doing a barrel roll before taking the plane in for a perfect landing. :)

Besides that, there are plenty of blood mage abilities mentioned in codices and dialogue that we don't get ingame (for plot-breaking reasons, probably), like dreamwalking and being able to influence minds. Avernus uses blood magic to lure Levi Dryden to Soldier's Peak, for instance.

#8653
ZerbanDaGreat1

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@Glorfindel: It did have debilitating effects, though probably not enough :P. I figure it worked so well on Zathrian because it was completely unexpected. Plus Ven did open a vein to get the necessary blood. Also, when he then tries it on the Warden he completely fails to control her. All he does is slow her down, and it's implied she would have eventually broken out of his control if Alistair hadn't interrupted them both. In fact the Warden's mental feedback (memories of Arl Howe's attack) almost kills him. Anyway, the main drawback is Ven's on a slippery slope. If he uses his powers he slides a little further towards full possession.



@SoLD: Maybe Charity? Compassion? I don't know. I must admit I forgot about the Awakening Pride demon -_-. I also remember the Alienage stuff - especially how they popped when you killed them D:



Anyway, all of Ven's powers come from the demon, and using them makes the demon stronger. On his own he's a terrible mage, which is why he sticks with his sword and doesn't even carry a staff. In fact, at this point in the fic his personal (unaided) bodycount is only about ten.



Though come the Deep Roads he'll really flip out and start murdering things. Maybe find a use for Walking Bomb >_>

#8654
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Charity sounds good to me! I think it was the word I was actually trying to find, but couldn't think of what it was beyond it starting with a 'C' XD

#8655
Corker

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DreGregoire wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

So this solves the fact there ARE windows! Or the Templar is just being a comedian. ;)


He says there are windows in the upper floors and then jokes about the result of jumping out of them hehe


I always wondered why folks didn't cast Lifeward and then jump.  (I guess maybe it keeps you from dying, but it's hard to run on two broken legs?)

#8656
Creature 1

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Corker wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

So this solves the fact there ARE windows! Or the Templar is just being a comedian. ;)


He says there are windows in the upper floors and then jokes about the result of jumping out of them hehe


I always wondered why folks didn't cast Lifeward and then jump.  (I guess maybe it keeps you from dying, but it's hard to run on two broken legs?)

Maybe they make the windows higher than that.  :P  There's only so much Lifeward can do. 

I bet they have stories, though, of the mage that thought he'd try that and ended up getting mangled on the rocks. 

Also I think most mages probably don't take specializations, so there would be few Spirit Healers.  The mages in our parties are really pressed to their utmost because if they don't learn as much as they can as fast as they can, they'll die.  And they might even die if they do. 

Modifié par Creature 1, 13 février 2011 - 01:16 .


#8657
Creature 1

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

3) The blood mages in the alienage out in front of the hostpice use Blood Control on the elves, actually. I was horrified when some of them attacked my CE o_O The devs actually remove Shianni from the area when that happens. XD

Yeah, that made a big impression on me.  Totally scripted, though.  I've watched them and they never seem to have time to activate blood magic or cast Blood Control and Walking Bomb, being occupied with other things.  Really wicked tactic, though. 

#8658
jackkel dragon

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Glorfindel709 wrote...

There are a couple things wrong with those points

A) The Fraternities are not a secret. The Chantry has to know that they exist. The Libertarians are one of the largest and fastest growing one in the community of mages. The Loyalists are losing numbers and its' speculated that the Aquetarians might start supporting the Libertarians more instead of serving as the mediator between the two extremes. Mages are thus willing to oppose the chantry.
B) Templars are a military order that is dominated by two principles. 1) If it looks abominationy or bleeding, cut off its head. 2) Lyrium is the bomb-diggity. Mages are far more versatile than Templars, especially if one considers the reliance on lyrium *and* the fact that if the mages go Abomination or Maleficar, there is nothing in the Templar training that effectively stops them beyond what Alistair called "Plan B"
and finally C) We find Mages all over Ferelden. I fought more Rogue Mages than I ever saw in the Tower during the Origin or Broken Circle. Clearly the corral idea has not panned out.


Well, it's not realy *my* problem that these points aren't effective. ;p

Anyway, I wanted to clear a few things up:

A) I was thinking more of a violent opposition. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Libertarians' goal isn't to murder any Chantry-loving mage or templar in Ferelden before riding into the sunset. But this point is still moot after Uldred gets a team of blood mages and mostly does the thing that was assumed wouldn't happen.

B) Also more the Chantry's problem than mine, they really shouldn't rely on templars to fix everything. "Plan B" isn't exactly what the Chantry had in mind when they wanted mages kept locked up.

C) This is actually *my* weak argument. We see mages everywhere, yet until Witch Hunt we got no indication that anyone other than apostates or Grey Wardens left the tower. From the mages' collective to the apprentices in Denerim, there's plenty of mages about even without counting rogues. It makes me wonder why lock the mages up in the first place, when the apprentices are out in the world anyway.

#8659
Glorfindel709

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A) The Libertarian goal is freedom from the chantry, and they argue that since the chantry would never willingly free them they'd need to do something drastic to get away. Not to mention, the people who participated in his revolution werent all Blood mages to our knowledge, codex information suggests that a big portion of the libertarians in the tower were really excited for the rebellion Uldred was going to lead them into

B) I agree, but the problem is the Chantry have put them in the position that without the templars they're just a regular church. Think of it like the Catholic Church getting militarily neutered after the fall o the Holy Roman Empire

C)I think those Apprentices are Collective Apprentices and not Circle ones,but in my opinion, the Chantry locking up the mages has less to do with their danger and more to do with control/social agenda.



and Im not sayging anything against you! :D I was just attacking the points. I can never resist a good bout of Chantry bashing (see my sig)

#8660
jackkel dragon

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It *is* fun to bash the Chantry. :) And I *like* the Chantry!



Wynne would cross her eyes trying to figure me out.

#8661
Glorfindel709

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Wynne doesnt like me..... >.> <.<

Could have something to do with me mocking her age and ignoring her lectures every time she opens her damn mouth:bandit:

#8662
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Creature 1 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

3) The blood mages in the alienage out in front of the hostpice use Blood Control on the elves, actually. I was horrified when some of them attacked my CE o_O The devs actually remove Shianni from the area when that happens. XD

Yeah, that made a big impression on me.  Totally scripted, though.  I've watched them and they never seem to have time to activate blood magic or cast Blood Control and Walking Bomb, being occupied with other things.  Really wicked tactic, though. 


Hmmm...interesting. I wonder if this means there was some kind of technical AI issue letting blood mage enemies use this spell then, because I'm surprised Blood Control is never used on the PC/Companions. But blood magic has so much potential I'm surprised more wasn't done with it in the game...ehhh...DA2 looks like it might shed some light, though who knows what colour.

#8663
Glorfindel709

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Ive had blood magic used on me before, my entire party got hit by Blood Wound

#8664
mousestalker

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My last playthrough with a city elf Caladrius defeated himself with blood magic. I really didn't want to take anyone with me in the Alienage. The love interest lines about the wedding are not the best. My LI was Zevran and I really don't much care for his reaction. Morrigan does her callous schtick, Wynne is especially insensitive, anyway, I decided to solo that part.

In the big room for the final showdown, Caladius has a lot of henchmen who use saw swords and bows. The stuns from the bows are what usually pose a problem, but I had decent armour (go go dual wielding warrior!) so I ran in and started whacking on Caladrius, not even using sekrit templar powers. Thirty seconds later Caladrius says 'A blood sacrifice for power' and one of his archers goes 'boom!' Then another one ten seconds later. Just by standing and hitting the bad bald blood mage my warden allowed him to kill his entire team. Caladrius literally killed every one of his goons himself.

We now know how Andraste defeated the Imperium. She let them defeat themselves. And brought lots of wipes.

Or maybe that's why the Fereldans love Mabari so much?

Modifié par mousestalker, 14 février 2011 - 07:07 .


#8665
Corker

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OMG then I didn't imagine that! I *thought* I saw that happen, then convinced myself that Morrigan must've cast Virulent Walking Bomb when I wasn't looking. I wonder what triggers it? I don't recall him doing that when my f!Cousland solo rogue fought him.

#8666
Creature 1

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Oh nice, I always kill everyone else first and then him, so I never noticed that!

#8667
maxernst

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Creature 1 wrote...

Oh nice, I always kill everyone else first and then him, so I never noticed that!


I've never seen him doing that either.  I tend to keep him force fielded or in a crushing prison until the rest of the guys are dealt with.

#8668
DreGregoire

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I'm glad that blood mage isn't on my team. LOL

#8669
jackkel dragon

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Encounter scripting on Caladrius? I never knew he healed himself by killing his allies.



I don't feel as creative anymore. That was my idea.

#8670
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Ooh, I knew Caladrius could blow people up, but I thought he did that to the elven slaves, not his own men!! Hence I always tried to disrupt his casting... two stealthed rogues with punisher and dirty fighting = teh win. :)



Still, it's scripted (like the pride demon's magic in broken circle), so there has to be something off with just giving away blood mage skills...



@Glorfindel: PC? PS? Do you remember where? *curious* Though blood wound isn't as bad a spell. Blood control is the one that'd have your party slaughtering each other...

#8671
Glorfindel709

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Xbox 360, Zathrian used it on me when I brought him to talk to the Werewolves and refused to side with him. Killed me and Leliana (it should be noted I had run out of lyrium and switched to Blood Magic to power spells so my health was extremely low anyway), Wynne died taking out the two sylvans so only Alistair was left and he killed Zathrian

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 15 février 2011 - 12:17 .


#8672
ZerbanDaGreat1

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 Ok, so since Ven used Blood Magic I've been thinking about party reactions. I'll sort of summarize them and see if they seem in-character.

Alistair: You used blood magic on the girl of my dreams. Are you just trying to see how far you can push me at this point? I'm ashamed you're going to be a Warden.

Wynne: I can't believe you even learned a horrible skill like that, much less used it on your own leader. I thought you were better than that. 

Leliana: I'll always be grateful for what you did for me, but even so this is too far. How could you?

Sten: Why she still allows you with us is a mystery I cannot fathom. You would be long dead if I had my way.

Morrigan: The others are certainly having fun judging you. Curious how an act with the best of intentions can seem so foul a crime. 

... and I can't think of one for Zevran -_-

#8673
Shadow of Light Dragon

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I think it would depend on what the blood magic achieved. ;) He has morals, but he's also practical.

#8674
Raonar

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I think those reaction you put in would be a bit extreme, given what I've read of your story so far. But then again, it might be jsut me :P

#8675
ZerbanDaGreat1

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Well I may be leaning on the extreme side because I don't want it to pass unnoticed. He did, after all, use blood magic on his commander and almost made someone commit suicide. There's also the fact that Morrigan is the only one he's told at this point. Plus he learned it from Connor's demon, leading to everybody asking if he really killed it.



Ven isn't the most reliable narrator.