10369 réponses à ce sujet

[Merilsell]

Aye, thesaurus is my best friend too, but sometimes it doesn't offer the things I desire. Thanks for the help, though.

@Maria: Why thank you. I have a 220k story in english which often contains a sh*tload of dialogue, so I need some variety here. As a non-native speaker it is however way too easy to stick with the expressions I know...but alas they get old after a while.

For example: Lenya's eyes should have got stuck in her head by now, as often she has "rolled her eyes" already. Then again, she is easy to exasperate and that is her favorite way to show the other person " Creators, you are (/that is) so utterly stupid" with it. Lol.

Aww, thanks Glor I'm like everyone here a sucker for feedback. Alas it had been very rare so far for that new chap. Well, I have been too spoiled with the 5 reviews I regularly got lately per chapter, I guess.

Modifié par Merilsell, 28 février 2011 - 06:24 .

[maxernst]

On the subject of the Dark Ritual: for my ff warden, I've always seen it as his "Gethsemane" moment, with the "I Only Want to Say" song from Jesus Christ Superstar as to where he's coming from. Some relevant lines (he has a premonition that somehow, Riordan will not succeed)

I only want to say if there is a way,
Take this cup away from me
For I don't want to taste its poison..."

"Listen, surely I've exceeded expectations,
Tried for three years
Seems like thirty
Could you ask as much from any other man?"
"After all, I've tried for three years,
Seems like ninety
Why then am I scared to finish
What I started?
What you started
I didn't start it"

Basically, my Aedan never asked for the responsibility to save the world. He isn't sure that he trusts Morrigan, but he's lost his family and Alistair is all he has left. He feels they deserve a chance at some happiness after everything they've done. So ultimately he takes the risk for selfish reasons. He hides what he's done from Alistair for five years and might have taken the knowledge to his grave except that the OGB starts appearing in Warden dreams and he's forced to take some sort of action.

[Sialater]

Maria13 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Another question I have to answer is why would they Harrow a chronic escapee?

There was a distinct possibility he might not pass it.  The Chief Enchanter insists that even if he is a chronic escapee as a mage it is his right to be harrowed...

Mmm, that's a good point.  That plus the healing ability... After all, I think it's canon he tried to escape at least twice as an apprentice.

[Merilsell]

On terms of body language I have found this site and found the bottom of it quite helpful.

http://www.businessb...dy-language.htm

[Maria13]

Sialater wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Another question I have to answer is why would they Harrow a chronic escapee?

There was a distinct possibility he might not pass it.  The Chief Enchanter insists that even if he is a chronic escapee as a mage it is his right to be harrowed...

Mmm, that's a good point.  That plus the healing ability... After all, I think it's canon he tried to escape at least twice as an apprentice.

Yes, I think even within Chantry restrictions, it seems plausible that mages have certain limited rights if only to ensure that they don't rebel or refuse to co-operate.

[Maria13]

Merilsell wrote...

On terms of body language I have found this site and found the bottom of it quite helpful.

http://www.businessb...dy-language.htm

Hey, loved that...

Found this under male interest in females:

cowboy stance - thumbs in belt loops, fingers pointing to
genital area.
hands in pockets - thumbs out and pointing to genitals.

[Sialater]

Maria13 wrote...

Merilsell wrote...

On terms of body language I have found this site and found the bottom of it quite helpful.

http://www.businessb...dy-language.htm

Hey, loved that...

Found this under male interest in females:

cowboy stance - thumbs in belt loops, fingers pointing to
genital area.
hands in pockets - thumbs out and pointing to genitals.

Hmmmm.... interesting.  I think Al stands like this a few times.

[Maria13]

It's very clear in his gestures when you go into his bedroom in Redcliffe to propose the DR, he is leaning on the bedpost with his legs crossed and his hands crossed over his... Uhum, but I guess both things the crossings also mean discomfort and defensiveness.

PS Oh that squirrel!!!

Modifié par Maria13, 28 février 2011 - 08:32 .

[Maria13]

maxernst wrote...

On the subject of the Dark Ritual: for my ff warden, I've always seen it as his "Gethsemane" moment, with the "I Only Want to Say" song from Jesus Christ Superstar as to where he's coming from. Some relevant lines (he has a premonition that somehow, Riordan will not succeed)

I only want to say if there is a way,
Take this cup away from me
For I don't want to taste its poison..."

"Listen, surely I've exceeded expectations,
Tried for three years
Seems like thirty
Could you ask as much from any other man?"
"After all, I've tried for three years,
Seems like ninety
Why then am I scared to finish
What I started?
What you started
I didn't start it"

Basically, my Aedan never asked for the responsibility to save the world. He isn't sure that he trusts Morrigan, but he's lost his family and Alistair is all he has left. He feels they deserve a chance at some happiness after everything they've done. So ultimately he takes the risk for selfish reasons. He hides what he's done from Alistair for five years and might have taken the knowledge to his grave except that the OGB starts appearing in Warden dreams and he's forced to take some sort of action.

Like that quote, know the song.  Although in different contexts I think our takes on the DR are pretty similar it is an extreme and unpleasant duty which has to be undertaken by the male in question (Aedan in your case, Alistair in mine) and certainly not something that either of them get off on...

Contrary to those rather demeaning threads that were around at the time, "Of course he enjoyed it..."

[Merilsell]

I found it quite hilarious that there are so many different female signals listed, while male only have a few and most of them ending with "pointing to genitals"

Somehow it reminds me on this picture

Lol. Body language, gotta love it XD

Modifié par Merilsell, 28 février 2011 - 07:38 .

[Glorfindel709]

Hello ladies *stands in cowboy stance*

[Mahkara]

DreGregoire wrote...

@Mahkara: There is no doubt that it would be very irresponsible to allow the old god baby (?) to be born and when I played as the type of person who thought that far ahead and in that manner he went ahead and sacrificed himself instead of doing the ritual. But what if you were a person who believed that your nation needed to have a certain person survive in order for that nation to be whole? You don't know if your pc, Alistair/loghain, or Rhiordan will even survive to make it to the archdemon. Only three people left to defeat the archdemon, could you not look at the opportunity of doing the ritual as another way to ensure the archdemons defeat? I'm just speculating now of course but that's what I do. Character creation is a thing of mine. LOL

Oh, I think you can come up with loads of reasons as to why your character would do the DR.  (Also included:  They love Morrigan and are sure she'd so no harm/trust her that the OGB is a great thing.  Or for all that, they think that Thedas has it coming.)

BUT, that said, if you do the DR, it's fair that most readers are going to think that your character is either a) highly self interested and short sighted, hopelessly naive, c) a psychopathic monster (depending on their rationale) for doing the ritual.  I get sort of annoyed at the many, many fanfics written where as the author can't destroy her and Alistair's love by either sacrificing Loghain or sacrificing herself or Alistair.  It doesn't come off as amazing and heroic then...it comes off as selfish.

Admittedly, a good writer can change your mind.  (And I've seen others do things like let Riordan live, let Avernus take it, whatever.  I mean, you can play with canon in stories...)  But, it's fair to say that not sacrificing a Grey Warden to the arch demon probably is a rather selfish thing to do...and that if your character is supposed to be a kitten saving sweetheart that you may have just blown it by doing that.

[DreGregoire]

Mahkara wrote...

I get sort of annoyed at the many, many fanfics written where as the author can't destroy her and Alistair's love by either sacrificing Loghain or sacrificing herself or Alistair.  It doesn't come off as amazing and heroic then...it comes off as selfish.

But, it's fair to say that not sacrificing a Grey Warden to the arch demon probably is a rather selfish thing to do...and that if your character is supposed to be a kitten saving sweetheart that you may have just blown it by doing that.

I see you feel very strongly about this and I'm not saying your view is wrong, but I don't completely agree with your view.


I agree that doing the ritual is a selfish act, never doubt that. Whereas sacrificing yourself or another to defeat the archdemon is a selfless act.

I don't agree that being willing to sacrifice anything for love isn't amazing. If Alistair isn't pushed he won't do the ritual, so he clearly believe's that duty comes first. He'll even break up or try to break up with your pc if you can't convince him otherwise after the landsmeet.

I don't think it's unreasonable or unbelievable for a person to choose to save those they love at the risk of others. It happens all the time. I'm sure some of the well learned people on this site and forum post can give you many examples in books, history, and theology of this type of thing.

However, I don't agree (on some of my characters/pc's) with many peoples assessment that the old god child will end up endangering Thedas. I may write and roleplay a mage but he does not have foreknowledge and has no reason to believe that an old god is a danger to thedas considering he does not believe the dogma of the chantry and can think and reason for himself based on his own study of knowledge and experience with people. The old gods taught magic to the mages says the chantry, so mages are dangerous and must be watched. A man with a sword is dangerous and must be watched too then and the man that controls many men with swords is a danger to Ferelden and if he controls even more men he's a danger to Thedas.

The darkspawn are the product of the maker when he/she cast out the mages. These darkspawn find the imprisoned old gods and corrupt the old gods with their taint changing the old gods into something evil that wants to destroy all. Exactly who is to blame then for the wiping out of Thedas?

I am not refering to reallife, just thedas. I'm not discussing reallife morality or belief, just that of Thedas.

Oops sorry I got a bit long winded

Modifié par DreGregoire, 28 février 2011 - 11:34 .

[DreGregoire]

@ the body language thing. Note that when the conversation about the human nobles parents crops up between Cailan and Duncan the human noble crosses arms... ooohh use of body language! Heh so cool The only thing is he only appears to be holding only one of his/her arms (which is the normal way of crossing arms) so... It's still cool and shoes that the warden is uncomfortable or emotional upset .

Interestingly enough; others react to your pc's body language too. When your pc cross his arms when Alistair is talking to the redcliffe knight in the Lothering chantry Alistair shifts in response. Okay so maybe I spend too much time making movies and noticing things. I'm just saying that I think the games makers did a nice job with the cutscenes

Modifié par DreGregoire, 28 février 2011 - 11:06 .

[maxernst]

Mahkara wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

@Mahkara: There is no doubt that it would be very irresponsible to allow the old god baby (?) to be born and when I played as the type of person who thought that far ahead and in that manner he went ahead and sacrificed himself instead of doing the ritual. But what if you were a person who believed that your nation needed to have a certain person survive in order for that nation to be whole? You don't know if your pc, Alistair/loghain, or Rhiordan will even survive to make it to the archdemon. Only three people left to defeat the archdemon, could you not look at the opportunity of doing the ritual as another way to ensure the archdemons defeat? I'm just speculating now of course but that's what I do. Character creation is a thing of mine. LOL

Oh, I think you can come up with loads of reasons as to why your character would do the DR.  (Also included:  They love Morrigan and are sure she'd so no harm/trust her that the OGB is a great thing.  Or for all that, they think that Thedas has it coming.)

BUT, that said, if you do the DR, it's fair that most readers are going to think that your character is either a) highly self interested and short sighted, hopelessly naive, c) a psychopathic monster (depending on their rationale) for doing the ritual.  I get sort of annoyed at the many, many fanfics written where as the author can't destroy her and Alistair's love by either sacrificing Loghain or sacrificing herself or Alistair.  It doesn't come off as amazing and heroic then...it comes off as selfish.

I guess I'd rather have my character come off as flawed and human than heroic and self-sacrificing.  I think most real people are self-interested and short sighted.

Modifié par maxernst, 28 février 2011 - 11:29 .

[Glorfindel709]

Agreed with maxernst, not only that but like I said before it's a fantastic fail-safe plan *shrugs*

[Mahkara]

DreGregoire wrote...


I don't think it's unreasonable or unbelievable for a person to choose to save those they love at the risk of others. It happens all the time. I'm sure some of the well learned people on this site and forum post can give you many examples in books, history, and theology of this type of thing.

This kind of thing comes up all the time, true.  But to me, any character that goes, "Hey, save one person I love or...run the risk of killing millions...sure, kill the millions!"  is pretty damned selfish.   I will never agree otherwise.  *shrugs*  And that's in any medium, really.  It really bothers me how this is treated as *heroic* or good.  It's not.  I'm sorry, but saying, "the possibilty of me getting laid/finding love/whatever > the lives of millions of other people" is about as selfish as you can get.  Wynne reminds you about this in game, if you can recall.

That said, people are selfish and self interested.  All people are.  If it is you, a person you love, or a total stranger, you always choose yourself or the person you love.  I just wish that more ffic writers would acknowledge that saving themself and/or Alistair at what is a huge risk (not necessarily that the OGB is bad, but he's still a *major* risk) is a selfish, self interested decision that, to be frank, is pretty evil to make.   Yeah, the game doesn't lay the guilt on you the way it does if you let Redcliffe be slaughtered by zombies, kill Connor, kill Isolde, sacrifice the city elves, etc.  But in the long run, it may be the *worst* decision you make (which can be easily averted by hardening Alistair, having him marry Anora, and sparing Loghain to take the final blow.  Yeah, this doesn't give you a big white wedding, but it does avert POTENTIAL COMPETE AND CATASTROPHIC DOOM!  Or you can, you know, just kill Alistair or yourself.)

I'll admit to a special pet peeve when fangirls angst forever over having Alistair sleep with Morrigan...but her potentially world destroying off spring? Not a biggie!  I mean, sleeping with a woman who is not your one true love obviously = tragedy, while creating an Old God offspring = not such a big deal.  *eye roll*  If your Warden does this, I'm 100% convinced that Duncan is an idiot for having chosen them.

[Mahkara]

maxernst wrote...

I guess I'd rather have my character come off as flawed and human than heroic and self-sacrificing.  I think most real people are self-interested and short sighted.

eh, and that's fine. I like deeply flawed characters.  I just get irritated at authors who insist that their Warden is wonderful and awesome and infinitely better than the villains in the story...just to have them do the DR so they don't have to end their relationship with Alistair. It's like, yeah, sure Howe killed your family. But he did not just risk a second Blight reappearing so he could be with his One True Love.

[Merilsell]

Since my Warden gives a rats ass about duty and rules, I'm all fine

[maxernst]

Mahkara wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...


I don't think it's unreasonable or unbelievable for a person to choose to save those they love at the risk of others. It happens all the time. I'm sure some of the well learned people on this site and forum post can give you many examples in books, history, and theology of this type of thing.

This kind of thing comes up all the time, true.  But to me, any character that goes, "Hey, save one person I love or...run the risk of killing millions...sure, kill the millions!"  is pretty damned selfish.   I will never agree otherwise.  *shrugs*  And that's in any medium, really.  It really bothers me how this is treated as *heroic* or good.  It's not.  I'm sorry, but saying, "the possibilty of me getting laid/finding love/whatever > the lives of millions of other people" is about as selfish as you can get.  Wynne reminds you about this in game, if you can recall.

That said, people are selfish and self interested.  All people are.  If it is you, a person you love, or a total stranger, you always choose yourself or the person you love.  I just wish that more ffic writers would acknowledge that saving themself and/or Alistair at what is a huge risk (not necessarily that the OGB is bad, but he's still a *major* risk) is a selfish, self interested decision that, to be frank, is pretty evil to make.   Yeah, the game doesn't lay the guilt on you the way it does if you let Redcliffe be slaughtered by zombies, kill Connor, kill Isolde, sacrifice the city elves, etc.  But in the long run, it may be the *worst* decision you make (which can be easily averted by hardening Alistair, having him marry Anora, and sparing Loghain to take the final blow.  Yeah, this doesn't give you a big white wedding, but it does avert POTENTIAL COMPETE AND CATASTROPHIC DOOM!  Or you can, you know, just kill Alistair or yourself.)

I'll admit to a special pet peeve when fangirls angst forever over having Alistair sleep with Morrigan...but her potentially world destroying off spring? Not a biggie!  I mean, sleeping with a woman who is not your one true love obviously = tragedy, while creating an Old God offspring = not such a big deal.  *eye roll*  If your Warden does this, I'm 100% convinced that Duncan is an idiot for having chosen them.

Personally, I think sparing Loghain is an impossibly risky decision.  His sudden about face from "you're an evil Orlesian agent" to "you're Ferelden's best hope" seems completely inexplicable.  I'm sorry, but "I sense a strength in you..." is not an adequate explanation.  If he thought you were an Orlesian agent before, the evidence against you is much stronger now.  You show up with an Orlesian companion, are assisted in murdering his second in command by Anora's Orlesian maid, and rescue an Orlesian Warden. I can't see any reason why he won't murder me in my sleep to "save" Ferelden at first opportunity.  He's either insane or lying...and no, I don't think the visions induced by being given a magic potion by an Orlesian agent can realistically be expected to change his mind.  My warden won't spare Loghain because he's not suicidal.

[Miri1984]

Is anyone else having difficulty uploading files to FF.net at the moment? It's rejecting me

[Liso66]

Mahkara wrote...

maxernst wrote...

I guess I'd rather have my character come off as flawed and human than heroic and self-sacrificing.  I think most real people are self-interested and short sighted.

eh, and that's fine. I like deeply flawed characters.  I just get irritated at authors who insist that their Warden is wonderful and awesome and infinitely better than the villains in the story...just to have them do the DR so they don't have to end their relationship with Alistair. It's like, yeah, sure Howe killed your family. But he did not just risk a second Blight reappearing so he could be with his One True Love.

Mahkara

Your "opinion" which btw, is all that it is, has been expressed with a lot of scorn towards other peoples choices. Bioware has done an amazing job and keeping areas of grey on the dark ritual, as well as best case scenario for the ending.

Yes, Hardening Alistair, marry him off to Anora, and let Loghain take the final blow may 'seem' best overall. How do you know though? What foreseeable premonitions do you have, that the rest of the players do not?

So let us see. Anora and Alistair are married. Loghian is dead. However, any mention of heirs? Nope. Which means what? Thirty years from now, another civil war? A country once again, tossed into turmoil?

Alistair marries the Cousland girl. She was raised in the highest ranking family in Ferelden. Sure, maybe no baby making, still same scenario. She would have been taught all that Anora was, and maybe even more.

Anora rules alone? Yes, because she does such a lovely job taking charge while Howe and her Father rule her like a puppet. Anora is totally worthless by herself.

I am not going to go through every single scenario, and I have played them all. My point is, regardless of what you chose to do in game or write in FF. All of this is personal preference and opinion. Telling people they are wrong outright without substantial proof to back up the claim, is monumentally wrong. How we all decide to tell a story or play the game is correct. Why? Imagination is a wonderful thing. Regardless of choices, none of them are wrong..

Regards!

Modifié par Liso66, 01 mars 2011 - 12:24 .

[Mahkara]

maxernst wrote...


Personally, I think sparing Loghain is an impossibly risky decision.  His sudden about face from "you're an evil Orlesian agent" to "you're Ferelden's best hope" seems completely inexplicable.  I'm sorry, but "I sense a strength in you..." is not an adequate explanation.  If he thought you were an Orlesian agent before, the evidence against you is much stronger now.  You show up with an Orlesian companion, are assisted in murdering his second in command by Anora's Orlesian maid, and rescue an Orlesian Warden. I can't see any reason why he won't murder me in my sleep to "save" Ferelden at first opportunity.  He's either insane or lying...and no, I don't think the visions induced by being given a magic potion by an Orlesian agent can realistically be expected to change his mind.  My warden won't spare Loghain because he's not suicidal.

It's quite risky.  I agree that he could turn on you in your sleep or...whatever.  That said, you can execute him and still sacrifice either Alistair or yourself.  *shrugs*  So even in a scenario where you believe that Anora is a monster and needs to be taken out of power, Loghain is 100% untrustworthy, *and* Alistair must be king, you can choose to bite it.

Alternately, as far as Loghain goes, you are repeatedly told by various NPCs throughout the story not only about how horrible he is, but also about how he's a great hero, depending on the NPC.  You can choose to say, "yeah, still not worth the risk..." and kill him.  It's a totally logical decision.  But it's also fair to say, "Look, I'm choosing to redeam you.  I beat you once, I can do it again (especially when surrounded by my allies this time...) if needed, and I need whatever help I can get."  You figure, too, that virtually all of your allies are potentially dangerous (other than Alistair).  Morrigan is an apostate, Leliana may be an Orlesian spy, Sten murdered a defenseless family, Wynne may be an abomination, Zevran tried to kill you, Oghren is a crazy drunk, and Shale is a golem that likes killing fleshy things...Loghain isn't necessarily that much crazier of a choice as a companion.

[Merilsell]

Miri1984 wrote...

Is anyone else having difficulty uploading files to FF.net at the moment? It's rejecting me

Aye, just tested it. Seems like we have found yet another FF.net error, right? File uploads, notifications, stats, what s next? Is my PC going to explode when I click a site on FF.net?

I have worked around the error by C+P my new chap in one of the older doc's  I still had and saved that file then. By doing this I was able to send my chapter away for beta-ing at least. This could work for you as well, Miri...given that you still have such files in your document manager.

Honestly, I hate FF.net with a fiery passion at times. This are one of these days.

@Liso: Word.

I have my favorite ending as well, but that doesn't mean that the other endings are wrong. I just don't care much for them, that is all.

Modifié par Merilsell, 01 mars 2011 - 12:44 .

[Mahkara]

Liso66 wrote...

Mahkara

Your "opinion" which btw, is all that it is, has been expressed with a lot of scorn towards other peoples choices. Bioware has done an amazing job and keeping areas of grey on the dark ritual, as well as best case scenario for the ending.

Yes, Hardening Alistair, marry him off to Anora, and let Loghain take the final blow may 'seem' best overall. How do you know though? What foreseeable premonitions do you have, that the rest of the players do not?

So let us see. Anora and Alistair are married. Loghian is dead. However, any mention of heirs? Nope. Which means what? Thirty years from now, another civil war? A country once again, tossed into turmoil?

Alistair marries the Cousland girl. She was raised in the highest ranking family in Ferelden. Sure, maybe no baby making, still same scenario. She would have been taught all that Anora was, and maybe even more.

Anora rules alone? Yes, because she does such a lovely job taking charge while Howe and her Father rule her like a puppet. Anora is totally worthless by herself.

I am not going to go through every single scenario, and I have played them all. My point is, regardless of what you chose to do in game or write in FF. All of this is personal preference and opinion. Telling people they are wrong outright without substantial proof to back up the claim, is monumentally wrong. How we all decide to tell a story or play the game is correct. Why? Imagination is a wonderful thing. Regardless of choices, none of them are wrong..

Regards!

I doubt that we'll agree, but yes, my opinion is that letting a huge potential threat out in the world is a horrible, horrible idea and that I'd have a hard time considering a character that did such a thing as "good" (especially as the game provides you with many other options).  And if that character did not consider the OGB to be a potential threat, then yes, I would consider them naive.  And that a writer who completely ignores these isuses is missing something fairly critical.  Admittedly, some writers probably could make "yes, Morrigan is my BFF, and this is a great Old God, we're saving something special, blah blah blah" work.  But this is some serious stuff, that tends to, IMHO, be severely glossed over in ffic with the hope of skipping happily to the big, fluffy happy ending. That said, this is a video game, correct? It is not as though I'm considering someone a monster for playing the game they want.  (Heck, I've done every evil thing I could just to see what would happen...)  That said, when I write characters who do the DR, I rarely pretend that they're making this great decision.  (And, again, there are ways around it. See Arsinoe, Prisoner, etc. who've found ways to get the ending they want without it.  They're sneaky, yes, but you can change the game in ffic...)

The rest of your answer has absolutely no bearing on the discussion, so I'll ignore it as there are other threads that go over this in detail, and most of these points have been discussed ad naseum.