10369 réponses à ce sujet

[Glorfindel709]

Ok, I dont think a scar or physical impairment counts as a flaw - it's a characteristic of the character that effects their life, but it's not an integral part of their being.

Ive always looked at a character flaw in the area of the tragic or epic hero - a tragic flaw that either leads to heartache/downfall/death or the one thing in the character that makes him a negative presence rather than a positive.

A good example of a hero with a tragic flaw is Dr Faustus. He's intelligent, young, willful, extremely educated etc etc BUT he's extremely arrogant and prideful. That arrogance and pride cause him no end of heartache and trials through the story; he makes a deal with the devil, thinks he has mephistophilis as a servant, refuses to believe that God could ever forgive him after he makes the deal, etc etc. Overall he's apitible character who gets shot in the foot by his own flaws.

For my Mahariel Mage, his flaws are lining up to be --- naivety, pride, his inability to do anything beyond his duty, and an emotional sensitivity that ends up digging into his heart and soul when his mind re-creates all of the things that he's had to turn his back on for the sake of duty (love, innocent people, etc etc)

[LupusYondergirl]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I don't think scars or physical disabilities can be categorised as flaws, really...they can be debilitating and inconvenient, but there's nothing you can really do about them. You can't be blamed for the state of your body or physical defects, usually.

I agree that injuries/disfigurements aren't character flaws per se- although in Maggie's case hers only made her insecurity worse since so much of her self-worth is tied up in how she is perceived by men.  Daddy issues, etc. And they were the direct result of her own recklessness in battle.

I think it came up because the discussion was on epic battles versus, um, non-epic battles (realistic? gritty? dark?  not sure what term would work), and I said I preferred the sort of battles that had people making mistakes, getting hurt or killed, and suffering.  Raonar asked if that included my protagonists, and I confirmed that yes, several of my major characters have suffered injuries that are to some degree debilitating over their decade-plus careers as Grey Wardens.

It isn't that their physical flaws are character flaws- it's that they're imperfect overall.  They make mistakes in battle, they get hurt, all that.

Corker wrote...
ETA: And of course, some folks don't like thrilling action stories with no character development.  Some folks do. 
It's not good or bad (if we're looking at it sheerly from an entertainment/consumption standpoint), just different.  If you want to argue literary merit... don't look at me, I didn't take those classes.

I took far too many of those classes.  One of my creative writing professors was fond of shouting "EVEN THE GODS HAD FLAWS, PEOPLE!"
It boils down to conflict types.  External conflict you can have with a flawless protagonist.  Internal conflict requires some sort of imperfection in themselves they struggle with.  I'm very fond of internal conflict.

Raonar wrote...
Still, as far as scars go, I can't find a justification for most of them or for debilitating injuries (except when several tendons are severed, like in Gorim's case) when there is magic capable of bringing people back from the brink of death. I understand that in The Calling, Fiona mended someone's entire chest in an insant (as far as i heard anyway). That said, I at least made poisons hard/impossible to cure by magic (though one can still use spells to
enhance someone's constitution so that he/she may fight them off).

Actually, in The Calling there is at least one death because their injuries are beyond magic, and he makes it pretty clear how taxed Fiona is when she does heal someone, and how she isn't able to heal them "all the way" so to speak.
In The Stolen Throne Maric takes at least a week to recover from an injury (and we're talking still bandaged with an open wound) even with the mage Willhelm tending to him.  Although destruction magic is more powerful in the books, healing magic is much less powerful and fix-all than in the game. 
I suspect a lot of it is game mechanics.  They're not going to make a new body and new animations because your character got an arm chopped off in Haven or whatever.  The only time you really see in-game healing magic as an awesome no-wait fix-anything sort of thing is in the actual combat. 

In fic I made it that, while a mage could heal a wound, they couldn't create blood to replace what was lost, so severe injuries always result in at least some period of recovery for that reason.  It made sense to me since, if a mage could create blood from nothing, they wouldn't need to injure themselves or drain someone else to power blood magic. 
I've also had mages unable to heal anything that's totally gone.  No growing back lost limbs or fixing someone who had, for instance, complete organ failure.

And, some things are just going to be fatal no matter what.  A sword through the heart or the brain would usually kill someone before the body even hits the ground.  By the time a healer even gets to them they're already getting cold.

I strongly dislike a world without consequences, though.  So I probably go off-cannon giving them far too many of them.

[LupusYondergirl]

Glorfindel709 wrote...
A good example of a hero with a tragic flaw is Dr Faustus. He's intelligent, young, willful, extremely educated etc etc BUT he's extremely arrogant and prideful. That arrogance and pride cause him no end of heartache and trials through the story; he makes a deal with the devil, thinks he has mephistophilis as a servant, refuses to believe that God could ever forgive him after he makes the deal, etc etc. Overall he's apitible character who gets shot in the foot by his own flaws.

This is completely unrelated, but I wrote my undergrad honors thesis on the parallels between Doctor Faustus and The Tempest so I'm super-trilled to see I'm not the only one here who reads Marlowe.
(I have a Marlowe picture in my cube at work.  All my pin ups are pixels or dead for half a milennia. No wonder I don't get invited to happy hour with everyone else...)

[Glorfindel709]

@Lupus

I love Marlowe :-D I'm actually writing a paper for my literature class about Religion in The Tragedy of Dr Faustus right now... 5 academic resources beyond our textbooks. Fun times woohoo

[LupusYondergirl]

I highly recommend Frances Yates' The Occult Philosophy in the Elizabethan Age and John Melbane's the Return of the Golden Age: The Occult Tradition and Marlowe, Jonson, and Shakespeare. I found myself referring back to both of them so often I just bought my own copies. The first, at the very least, should be at any decent library, though.

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 06 mars 2011 - 08:04 .

[Glorfindel709]

@Lupus - Thank you so much! The Uni Library has both and they're perfect for what I'm looking for. Cheers!

@All - So I had some questions about the Timeline....

River Dane happened in 8:99 Blessed Age
Meghren was killed three years after in 9:02 Dragon Age
Maric journeyed with Genevieve and the Grey Wardens in 9:13
The Blight starts 9:30

So if my Mahariel is 28 that means he was born in 9:02 Dragon, went to the Circle Tower in 9:09 so he was there for the Orlesian capture of the Circle Tower and would have met Maric and Loghain as a child.... does this sound accurate to anyone else?

I'm trying to figure out a reason for Mahariel to actually like a notable Human as a youngster and thus have a frame of reference besides the Human mages to gather that there's a possibility that not all shemlen are scum

[Gilgamesh1138]

@Lupus I love both Marlowe and Shakespeare! I actually had the privilege of working on a theater production of Faust!

[Esbatty]

Just posting to say "I finally completed my first fan fic series", and it feels good. Sure it averaged a thousand words a chapter but it initially wasn't meant to be a series but just the one scene at the very beginning. Looking back in my writing I had made a few promises in the story that I didn't fully explore with the reader but since I'm working on a direct sequel with proper long form chapters instead of little snippets at irregular intervals, I can flesh out some of those missed oppurtunities along the way.

So I may not post much in here but I do take time out to lurk and read the back and forth and discussions, and must say thanks to all of you for your insights and public sharing of them and such.

Now I shall wait for Dragon Age 2 and see if that doesn't side track me with one off scenes with Hawke and Co.

[Gilgamesh1138]

WOOT Esbatty! Congrats! *HUGS*

[Lynn01]

Congrats Esbatty! I totally agree with you about how it can feel! I finished mine as well and I was glad I managed to do that! Especially since I wanted it to be finished before I'd start with DAII.

[Glorfindel709]

On a side note... Inquartata, if you read this.... I hate cliffhangers >.<

[Raonar]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

On a side note... Inquartata, if you read this.... I hate cliffhangers >.<

You do? I wouldn't be able to tell form your posts in my thread. Didn't you say suspense worked for you?

[Glorfindel709]

Suspense works well for me... but at certain times, a cliffhanger to something that has been built up for several chapters make me fidget for days wondering what's going to happen. And sometimes that fidgeting makes me angry.

I dont hate all cliffhangers, just the one that Inquartata just drop-kicked me off of. You've had a few of thsoe yourself, I usually just don't mention them too enraptured by epic battles or schemes


And why will no one answer my question?

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 07 mars 2011 - 11:37 .

[Lynn01]

I don't really have an answer to your question as I'd have to do research to provide one
(I'm at work etc etc add excuse) 

Modifié par Lynn01, 07 mars 2011 - 11:42 .

[Raonar]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

Suspense works well for me... but at certain times, a cliffhanger to something that has been built up for several chapters make me fidget for days wondering what's going to happen. And sometimes that fidgeting makes me angry.

I dont hate all cliffhangers, just the one that Inquartata just drop-kicked me off of. You've had a few of thsoe yourself, I usually just don't mention them too enraptured by epic battles or schemes


And why will no one answer my question?

Wouldn't know hw to answer for you. You should probably also see what you;re going to do about the debacle in the Calling, with first enchanter Remille joining with the Architect and almost murdering Maric and Duncan and everyone else.

As for my cliffhangers, I think it helped that there already were a bunch of chapters posted when you got around to reading my monster. Either way, I can tell you you'll do a lot of being angry at them soon enough.

[Glorfindel709]

All I wanted to know was if the Timeline of events sounded accurate =x


I figured that when Remille took over the Circle and sided with bloody Darkspawn, most of the apprentices were kept locked away unless they were in cahoots. Maybe have a few daring apprentices accompany the Hero of River Dane towards the hall where Remille was holding Maric hostage to try and help, maybe set a few peeps on ice.. the usual :-p

And yes, but my internet connection is notorious for sucking so I would have days where I'd have chapters waiting for me to go onward and I couldn't read them......

And yes, I'll be raging at the injustice of Orzammar cliffies soon enough...

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 07 mars 2011 - 12:01 .

[Maria13]

Dear Glor, your question is not altogether clear. If I understand rightly your Maharial would be 11 when Loghain came to the tower to rescue Maric, Fiona and stop Ramille's conspiracy... That is rather young for an apprentice to take an active part in events. Especially if he is unharrowed and not completed his training. One imagines he would have been warned not to use magic outside of a training context...

[Merilsell]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

On a side note... Inquartata, if you read this.... I hate cliffhangers >.<

Writing cliffhangers make me cackle uncontrollably, because I think on the agony that I cause my readers with them... which gives me warm fuzzies as result in a whole.

Aww, writing, isn't it marvelous? 
The "torture the reader"- part is one of the best things of it.  Warm fuzzies, I say, warm fuzzies.

Modifié par Merilsell, 07 mars 2011 - 02:20 .

[Corker]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

So if my Mahariel is 28 that means he was born in 9:02 Dragon, went to the Circle Tower in 9:09 so he was there for the Orlesian capture of the Circle Tower and would have met Maric and Loghain as a child.... does this sound accurate to anyone else?

I'm trying to figure out a reason for Mahariel to actually like a notable Human as a youngster and thus have a frame of reference besides the Human mages to gather that there's a possibility that not all shemlen are scum

Sounds like it would work, although... rather than a passing good impression of a notable NPC, there's stuff you could do with a longer relationship with just a regular person.  Even if one assumes that the mages do all their own cooking, cleaning, and laundry, people still have to come to the Tower to deliver food, wood, cloth and other necessaries.

--------------------------

It was the fourth bell after high sun; the fishermen would be putting in at the docks soon, hawking their catch to the Tower's victualler. That meant Tomas was coming.

Theron slipped up the stairs, unnoticed, until he reached the fourth* floor, the first with windows.**  He skirted around til he reached the alcove that overlooked the docks.  Tomas was already below, craning his neck to peer up at the Tower.  Seeing Theron's face in the window, he grinned and waved.

It was Tomas' turn to go first.  The shemlen gave a peasant's mockery of a courtly bow, then bent over and tipped himself up onto his hands.  Theron laughed to see him so, walking upside-down as if the grass were sky and the clouds were ground.  After a few minutes of this, and an angry shout from his father, his elbows bent and sent him rolling forward, then perfectly to his feet.  He flourished with his arms and bowed again; Theron clapped silently.  The gesture was more important than the sound, anyway.

His turn.  He bit his lip, concentrating, and fire jetted from one finger.  Moving quickly, he traced shapes in the air - circles, figure-eights, triangles - the trail of flame lasting just long enough to give them some sort of brief form.  He finished with waves, in honor of his fisherman friend.  Tomas clapped, loudly - so loudly that Theron ducked out of sight, in case any of the other fishermen should look to see what had the boy's attention and reported him to the templars. 

They'd get caught, some day.  Just not today, Creators willing.

*Assuming the Tower has more than the four in-game floors.
**Assuming you don't change this in your fic.  I find it vaguely ridiculous, YMMV.

[LupusYondergirl]

The problem with making your mage 28 is that Riordian will tell you he was almost 30 when made a warden and specify how unusual that was. With a whole tower to pick from it seems like Duncan wouldn't even consider people that old, sticking to younger ones who are more likely to survive the Joining.
Not saying it can't happen, I think it absolutely could. But you'll want to come up with a reason Duncan was interested enough to stick around until the Jowan thing and why he'd pick someone on the edge of "too old" over everyone else.

[Sialater]

Are we allowing DA2 spoilers at all? Cause I really wanna whine about them making The Rescue AU.

[Raonar]

Sialater wrote...

Are we allowing DA2 spoilers at all? Cause I really wanna whine about them making The Rescue AU.

I vote yes. Anyone else?

[inquartata02]

@Glor: I'm sorry! I just... next chapter, it will be resolved, I promise. I just wanted to do something a certain way and that meant a cliffhanger... and, er, you'll see later today. I'm sure it doesn't help any, but I felt bad doing it. And then I cowered and waited for pitchforks and torches from an angry "you wrote another cliffhanger" mob.

[Raonar]

inquartata02 wrote...

@Glor: I'm sorry! I just... next chapter, it will be resolved, I promise. I just wanted to do something a certain way and that meant a cliffhanger... and, er, you'll see later today. I'm sure it doesn't help any, but I felt bad doing it. And then I cowered and waited for pitchforks and torches from an angry "you wrote another cliffhanger" mob.

Why on EARTH would you feel bad for it? Cliffhangers are awesome, as long as you don't take half a year to get the next chapter out.

[LupusYondergirl]

I'm trying to avoid spoilers, personally.

I think it's safe to assume EVERY postgame story would be made AU by a sequel, though. Maker knows mine is.