10369 réponses à ce sujet

[DreGregoire]

Well that whole Mary Sue complaint crap is just the way a person tries to get another person's goat. It's just a flamatory remark to get attention from a writer. There are more constructive ways to express concerns with people's writing, but those that don't bother using those ways are trying to hinder not help. Why worry about it? People read your stuff either way right? Heh, I tend to get really upset by things people say, but in reality their perspective is no better or worse than anybody elses. Help, don't hinder, I try to remind myself. IMO, FanFiction is supposed to be fun! When it ceases to become fun I will stop writing it. That being said I won't allow somebodies comments to keep me from achieving my goals! Rawr!

Modifié par DreGregoire, 15 mars 2011 - 03:31 .

[Raonar]

DreGregoire wrote...

Well that whole Mary Sue complaint crap is just the way a person tries to get another person's goat. It's just a flamatory remark to get attention from a writer. There are more constructive ways to express concerns with people's writing, but those that don't bother using those ways are trying to hinder not help. Why worry about it? People read you stuff either way right? Heh, I tend to get really upset by things people say, but in reality their perspective is no better or worse than anybody elses. Help, don't hinder, I try to remind myself. IMO, FanFiction is supposed to be fun! When it ceases to become fun I will stop writing it. That being said I won't allow somebodies comments to keep me from achieving my goals! Rawr!

Ah, I seem to have not expressed myself well again. The review was actually POSITIVE, if you can believe it. The person said it sort of felt like it but that it was enjoyable anyway

Plus, I added a significant level of power to enemies as well, not jsut my wardens, just becuase i like things to be epic. 

[DreGregoire]

@Raonar: That was really just me making a general statement about my opinion on the term and reviews in general; not really in reference to your specific case. . I've read some peoples reviews of other peoples stories and thought to myself that they were just out to hinder not help

Modifié par DreGregoire, 15 mars 2011 - 03:35 .

[Mahkara]

DreGregoire wrote...

Well that whole Mary Sue complaint crap is just the way a person tries to get another person's goat. It's just a flamatory remark to get attention from a writer. There are more constructive ways to express concerns with people's writing, but those that don't bother using those ways are trying to hinder not help. Why worry about it? People read your stuff either way right? Heh, I tend to get really upset by things people say, but in reality their perspective is no better or worse than anybody elses. Help, don't hinder, I try to remind myself. IMO, FanFiction is supposed to be fun! When it ceases to become fun I will stop writing it. That being said I won't allow somebodies comments to keep me from achieving my goals! Rawr!

I'd diasagree that calling someone a character a "Mary Sue" is necessarily just to upset them. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it's a fair critique.  For all that, while generally a bad thing, a Mary Sue is not *universally* a bad thing.  I've read stories that I've actually *liked* with Mary Sue protagonists.  (Some of which are published and are very, very  popular.)  It just depends on how it's done, how the story works around it, etc.

Certainly, Mary Sue protagonists tend to be less fleshed out than, say, non-Mary Sue protagonists.  But they often make great characters for readers to identify with when constructed correctly and set in a world that works with their oh so unique and special gifts.  It really, really depends on the writer/the story/how it is done.  But if you're going to write one, it's probably best to *know* that you're writing one, so you can take the steps to make the story work with your goal, rather than against it.  And that if your protagonist is coming off as a bit too Mary Sue when this isn't your intention, to know that you may need to do things to de-Sue the character.

[Sialater]

Can someone please explain to my muse that having three WIPS in fic, plus four WIPs for original intellectual property novels is more than enough to keep him busy and not to drag Anders and Margaret Hawke into a story, please?

[Raonar]

Sigh.

/begin explanation to muse

YOU ARE NOT GETTING ANDERSED ANYTIME SOON! DEAL WITH IT!

/end explanation to muse

[Corker]

Mahkara wrote...

For all that, while generally a bad thing, a Mary Sue is not *universally* a bad thing.  I've read stories that I've actually *liked* with Mary Sue protagonists.  (Some of which are published and are very, very  popular.)  It just depends on how it's done, how the story works around it, etc.

I was floored when I first heard Diane Carey's Piper (of Dreadnaught! and Battlestations!) described as a Mary Sue, because I liked Piper.  That was the first Star Trek novel I'd read that focused on original characters and, because that was new to me, I thought it was brilliant.  (Also, I was fourteen.)

But... it's a pretty fair cop.  Doesn't mean the book wasn't fun, but Piper certainly has a whiff of the golden girl about her.

ETA: OMG, Vice Admiral Rittenhouse, the villain, was named Vaughan?  LOL

Modifié par Corker, 15 mars 2011 - 06:48 .

[Raonar]

You know, what i find annoying is that people automatically rank any character that is above average at everything and the best at at least one or two things as a Mary Sue/Gary Stu just because he's awesome. Hello people, a lot of people during humanism (Leonardo da Vinci anyone?) were better than pretty much everyone else at EVERYTHING. So yeah, just because someone is awesome doesn't mean he's a Sue. Honestly, it's like people can;t seem to conceive the fact that people actually CAN and SHOULD strive to be an example.

In other words, for some mindbogling reason... all iconic heroes are seen as sues just because they happen to be among those that know themselves and stay true to that self (while being awesome). How lovely.

[Glorfindel709]

@Raonar

Didnt anyone tell you? Superman is a Gary Stu

[Raonar]

Silver Age superman was Gary Stu-ish. Then they threw in his vulnerability to magic, retconned his superstrength and flight/invulnerability as tactile and passive psychokinesis fields, respectively, and horribly nerfed his abilities until even a single missile could knock him on his backside (which doesn't make sense for someone that can move planets).

People CAN be awesome people. This whole, misinterpreted sueism is starting to turn into a cult of 'Let's Hate those that actually do strive to be more than they are."

[Sialater]

Raonar wrote...

Sigh.

/begin explanation to muse

YOU ARE NOT GETTING ANDERSED ANYTIME SOON! DEAL WITH IT!

/end explanation to muse

Didn't help.  And I agree about the Sue thing.

[Raonar]

Sialater wrote...

Raonar wrote...

Sigh.

/begin explanation to muse

YOU ARE NOT GETTING ANDERSED ANYTIME SOON! DEAL WITH IT!

/end explanation to muse

Didn't help.  And I agree about the Sue thing.

Hmm, I'll have to think on a better incentive for you muse.

As for the sue thing, it seems I actually care enough about this horrid misconception that I turned it into my very first pet peeve on my FF.net profile page. Tell me, if you will, if it makes sense or if I forgot anything.

Very First Pet Peeve-On Mary Sues: This is an issue that has been bugging me for a while, mostly because people seem to use this term totally out of context and, for the most part, wrongly. So let me just get this out of the way: A person that is the best at a few things and better than average at everything else is not a Mary Sue. It just means they are awesome, pretty much like many humanists (Like Leonardo Da Vinci) were better than everyone else at just about everything. On that note, heroes in adventure/fantasy tales, especially members of legendary orders are, by definition, elite, commanders most of all, as they are expected to fight better than pretty much everyone (save maybe a few people in the world) and easily cope with leadership issues, while having various other skills (coking, essential for surviving for instance, logistics, since they explore a lot, etc.). There are and there have always been people that could do all these things and more, both in literature and in real life.

Another thing that people seem to fail to grasp is the fact that here are two main types of heroes: the dramatic hero, when the story focuses on his development/inner turmoil, and iconic heroes, who stay true to themselves and change the world. Then, of course, there's the trickier hybrid of the two.

Normally, heroes are expected to succeed at a bunch of things, since that's what they do. So just because a few plans go right for a clever schemer doesn't mean he's a Sue. It just means he's clever and probably hasn't yet reached the point where his skills are really tested. he becomes a sue only when his opponents are deliberately depicted as idiotic by the author. Additionally, just because he's a better warrior than everyone else (human/elf/dwarf/qunari/whatever) doesn't mean he's a sue either. Also, if he is both, he also does not fall into suedom because that would mean Alexander the Great never existed because he was both a great fighter and strategist/politician/leader and, thus, A Mary Sue and they aren't real/should be murdered with a hatchet!

As for physical traits, someone with white hair shouldn't be frowned upon in a world where Warden Commander Genevieve (Duncan's commander during the Calling) had white hair herself (and this is just one example). The world of Dragon Age has MAGIC people, magic that can sink kingdoms into the earth. ANYTHING is possible.

So the only way you can say someone is a sue in this kind of fantasy story (which is specifically meant to be epic in terms of action and adventure) is to look and see if a character is depicted as overly glamorous at the expense of everything else. Sure, character X may be very clever, skilled in battle and have magic knight abilities on top of everyone else, but is it really an issue/unusual in a story where so many others can do some of those things better than him (or have their own badass traits)? Basically, it is OKAY for someone to be awesome. What is NOT ok is when that someone comes across as better than everyone else because said everyone else were specifically written to be weak/dislikable or, basically, hate-bashed to kingdom come.

Awesome people are not sues.

Sues are people described as awesome/loved by everyone when they really aren't or when their skills are unrealistic/poorly depicted IN CONTEXT. CONTEXT people.

Thank you.

Modifié par Raonar, 15 mars 2011 - 07:34 .

[Creature 1]

Raonar wrote...

You know, what i find annoying is that people automatically rank any character that is above average at everything and the best at at least one or two things as a Mary Sue/Gary Stu just because he's awesome. Hello people, a lot of people during humanism (Leonardo da Vinci anyone?) were better than pretty much everyone else at EVERYTHING. So yeah, just because someone is awesome doesn't mean he's a Sue. Honestly, it's like people can;t seem to conceive the fact that people actually CAN and SHOULD strive to be an example.

In other words, for some mindbogling reason... all iconic heroes are seen as sues just because they happen to be among those that know themselves and stay true to that self (while being awesome). How lovely.

Couple things wrong here.  First, Leonardo da Vinci is so rare and noteworthy that we still remember him today, and I would say there is no one I know of currently living that is his equal, and that's out of >6 billion people.  If you're writing a story and have one da Vinci, you'd better have a good reason, if you have multiple da Vincis . . . well, then usually I chortle and walk away.  Secondly, Sues are Sues because they don't have to strive.  They just are awesome.  If you have a character that is outstanding for being able to move things with her mind, having a psychic connection to her pet sugar glider, naturally stripey hair, and the tendency to glow when she's mad--so what?  There's nothing in that character to emulate.  If your character is a genius smarter than Einstein who's also a really hard worker, then the hard work is something to emulate, but the whole outstanding genius thing is not, because you can't make yourself smarter than you are, and no person is responsible for their level of intelligence anyways so it's not really something to congratulate a person over. 

A lot of times in stories it seems it's just a case of "this one goes to eleven" (or sometimes OVER 9000!!)  Big deal.  If the characters are noteworthy at 11 (or OVER 9000!!) they should be noteworthy at 4 as well.  If they're not, your story isn't really about the characters, but the costuming they wear. 

[Raonar]

Creature 1 wrote...

Raonar wrote...

You know, what i find annoying is that people automatically rank any character that is above average at everything and the best at at least one or two things as a Mary Sue/Gary Stu just because he's awesome. Hello people, a lot of people during humanism (Leonardo da Vinci anyone?) were better than pretty much everyone else at EVERYTHING. So yeah, just because someone is awesome doesn't mean he's a Sue. Honestly, it's like people can;t seem to conceive the fact that people actually CAN and SHOULD strive to be an example.

In other words, for some mindbogling reason... all iconic heroes are seen as sues just because they happen to be among those that know themselves and stay true to that self (while being awesome). How lovely.

Couple things wrong here.  First, Leonardo da Vinci is so rare and noteworthy that we still remember him today, and I would say there is no one I know of currently living that is his equal, and that's out of >6 billion people.  If you're writing a story and have one da Vinci, you'd better have a good reason, if you have multiple da Vincis . . . well, then usually I chortle and walk away.  Secondly, Sues are Sues because they don't have to strive.  They just are awesome.  If you have a character that is outstanding for being able to move things with her mind, having a psychic connection to her pet sugar glider, naturally stripey hair, and the tendency to glow when she's mad--so what?  There's nothing in that character to emulate.  If your character is a genius smarter than Einstein who's also a really hard worker, then the hard work is something to emulate, but the whole outstanding genius thing is not, because you can't make yourself smarter than you are, and no person is responsible for their level of intelligence anyways so it's not really something to congratulate a person over. 

A lot of times in stories it seems it's just a case of "this one goes to eleven" (or sometimes OVER 9000!!)  Big deal.  If the characters are noteworthy at 11 (or OVER 9000!!) they should be noteworthy at 4 as well.  If they're not, your story isn't really about the characters, but the costuming they wear. 

Uuh... and this contradicts my saing that people CAN be awesome... how exactly?

And I do believe you are missing something: Da Vinci was just ONE of the people better than everyone else OF THEIR TIME. Honestly, I am speaking in context here. As a different example, for a different period, All philosophers/writers of dramatic plays in ancient Greece convened, and each of them was a 'Da Vinci' as you put it, because they were very athletic too (I can't remember which artist won the Olympic games more tha once in a row and barely won against ANOTHER artist, so yeah...)

Da Vinci isn't the ONLY outstanding person of his time either. Michelangelo is just one of multiple outstanding figures.

Besides, I fail to see the problem with someone going to 11 when the enemis are taken to eleven as well.

[Creature 1]

Raonar wrote...

Uuh... and this contradicts my saing that people CAN be awesome... how exactly?

People can be awesome but da Vinci was more awesome than almost every human who has ever lived.  Michelangelo is in that ranking as well.  So is Plato.  So is Einstein.  If your cast is made of a cohort who would fit in nicely with these people, that is way beyond the bounds of credibility. 

Besides, I fail to see the problem with someone going to 11 when the enemis are taken to eleven as well.

I know.  The problem is that if the story isn't interesting when you crank it down to 4, then it's not really about the characters, it's about the explosions, etc.  That's fine, it's just your preference.  It's not mine, nor many other people's. 

[mousestalker]

"Glad Manhands was a humble young man. His parents were run of the mill plutocrats from the small town of Tuxedo Junction, New York. Glad had an ordinary childhood for the most part, distinguished only by his winning the Nobel Prizes in Chemistry, Physics and Peace when he was thirteen. Standing six foot, six inches he radiated calm, in his case quite literally as he had infused his body with Calmium X-39 when he was twelve. He had ordinary features with stark white hair and purple eyes. His lithe body was encased in his toga, which anticipated rather than followed the most modern fashion trends. Loved by Gloria Gorgeous (Miss Universe three years running) the only fly in his ointment was Percy Neerdowell, his arch rival, nemesis and ballroom dancer extraordinaire."

I think I will go take a shower now.

[Raonar]

Creature 1 wrote...

Raonar wrote...

Uuh... and this contradicts my saing that people CAN be awesome... how exactly?

People can be awesome but da Vinci was more awesome than almost every human who has ever lived.  Michelangelo is in that ranking as well.  So is Plato.  So is Einstein.  If your cast is made of a cohort who would fit in nicely with these people, that is way beyond the bounds of credibility. 

Besides, I fail to see the problem with someone going to 11 when the enemis are taken to eleven as well.

I know.  The problem is that if the story isn't interesting when you crank it down to 4, then it's not really about the characters, it's about the explosions, etc.  That's fine, it's just your preference.  It's not mine, nor many other people's. 

Wow, you speak as though BOTH aren't possible.

[Raonar]

mousestalker wrote...

"Glad Manhands was a humble young man. His parents were run of the mill plutocrats from the small town of Tuxedo Junction, New York. Glad had an ordinary childhood for the most part, distinguished only by his winning the Nobel Prizes in Chemistry, Physics and Peace when he was thirteen. Standing six foot, six inches he radiated calm, in his case quite literally as he had infused his body with Calmium X-39 when he was twelve. He had ordinary features with stark white hair and purple eyes. His lithe body was encased in his toga, which anticipated rather than followed the most modern fashion trends. Loved by Gloria Gorgeous (Miss Universe three years running) the only fly in his ointment was Percy Neerdowell, his arch rival, nemesis and ballroom dancer extraordinaire."

I think I will go take a shower now.

Lol, this is awesome. Where did it come from?

Modifié par Raonar, 15 mars 2011 - 07:46 .

[Creature 1]

Raonar wrote...

Wow, you speak as though BOTH aren't possible.

You speak as if you think your story is better (more appealing, more entertaining) because it is "epic".  So obviously if you think it is better that way, it would be worse if it were less epic, yes? 

[Raonar]

Creature 1 wrote...

Raonar wrote...

Wow, you speak as though BOTH aren't possible.

You speak as if you think your story is better (more appealing, more entertaining) because it is "epic".  So obviously if you think it is better that way, it would be worse if it were less epic, yes? 

Who says I'm speaking of mine?

Or, just because I know you're not listening, that I am not speaking in general?

Amazing how you can sound offensive in so few words. Ah well.

Modifié par Raonar, 15 mars 2011 - 07:56 .

[Creature 1]

Raonar wrote...

Who says I'm speaking of mine?

Or, just because I know you're not listening, that I am not speaking in general?

Umm. . .  *points to top of page* 

Raonar wrote...

Plus, I added a significant level of power to enemies as well, not jsut my wardens, just becuase i like things to be epic. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]

You've said similar things before in this thread. 

Raonar wrote...

Amazing how you can sound offensive in so few words. Ah well.

You seem very touchy, when I haven't said anything critical besides, "This isn't to my taste, here's why."  My comments are prompted by your earlier rant against people who don't like that kind of writing, so if you find my response offensive my reactions is a one-shouldered shrug. 

[Raonar]

Äh, my bad then

[Mahkara]

Creature 1 wrote...

Secondly, Sues are Sues because they don't have to strive.  They just are awesome.  If you have a character that is outstanding for being able to move things with her mind, having a psychic connection to her pet sugar glider, naturally stripey hair, and the tendency to glow when she's mad--so what?  There's nothing in that character to emulate.  If your character is a genius smarter than Einstein who's also a really hard worker, then the hard work is something to emulate, but the whole outstanding genius thing is not, because you can't make yourself smarter than you are, and no person is responsible for their level of intelligence anyways so it's not really something to congratulate a person over.    

Yeah, I agree.  95% of the time, I'd complain less about a Sue being super powerful/beautiful/pretty than that in most Sue stories there just being no freaking conflict as the character is bound to win, no matter what, and has no problems that can't be easily solved.  Also, everyone likes him or her, other than the villains, which reduces conflict even further.  It makes for a dull read.

For example, a lot of the characters in Dragon Age are beautiful, intelligent, and capable.  Does this make them Sues/Stus?  Not really.  

Let's take Anora, for one.  She's described as gorgeous, intelligent, and capable even by her enemies. Sue territory, right?  But I'd argue that she's not a Sue. Why?  Becuase she's got real problems (that she can't solve, at least not on her own) and a personality that not everyone will find appealing.  

In addition, every party member you get is far above average as far as looks and competence, yet I'd argue that not a single one is a Sue, as all have issues that go beyond the superficial.  It's why they're more interesting than a character who is perfectly golden and you just *know* will get everything they want without any real effort involved.

That's what makes Sues boring.  Who cares about a story where you know the ending before it's even begun, and where conflicts can all be solved with a few words with no hurt feelings?  It's wish fulfillment, but it rarely makes for great reading.

[Raonar]

Ok, now that I am no longer cooking, I can explain what I was really saying. I was arguing FOR awesome characters and stories that are both epic and psychological engaging. I guess I was using my own stuff as an example, but if yu guys want a REAL combination of these, this is the sort of thing i am reffering to:

Shinji and Warhammer 40,000

Starting immediately after the prologue at least, though you need to know some Warhammer lore and about a ceratin show (anime, yes, i watch those), Called Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Hope I was clear this once.

Modifié par Raonar, 15 mars 2011 - 08:39 .

[Mahkara]

Raonar wrote...

Ok, now that I am no longer cooking, I can explain what I was really saying. I was arguing FOR awesome characters and stories that are both epic and psychological engaging. I guess I was using my own stuff as an example, but if yu guys want a REAL combination of these, this is the sort of thing i am reffering to:

Shinji and Warhammer 40,000

Starting immediately after the prologue at least, though you need to know some Warhammer lore and about a ceratin show (anime, yes, i watch those), Called Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Hope I was clear this once.

I'd argue that it's never the mark of a humble person to use their own work as a good example.

That said, Neon Genesis Evangelion is most definitely a story that is both epic and psychologically engaging. That said, none of the characters are "Sues".  Asuka is an arrogant, hot tempered brat (who is also cripplingly depressed), Rei is a bio engineered freak (who's not supposed to be particularly human), and Shinji is the most neurotic person ever to have lived.  All are badly manipulated by Gendo.  None are particularly powerful or awesome, outside of their suits.  And all are quite broken in their real lives. They're about as far from Sues as you can get.