Main character/playable PC's from RPGs are pretty much inherently Mary Sues, though. I guess the challenge is making them believable.
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#9777
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 02:41
mousestalker
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Corker wrote...
"Purple prose" is generally considered a bad thing. It's a technique that calls attention to itself, and in general, you don't want the casual reader to notice your technique. You want the reader to notice your story.
I've seen it used on purpose for comic effect - "Isabela's friend-fiction" and the like, or lampoons of genres where it's a problem. And sometimes very stylized or intense description flirts with being purple prose, sort of on the line where some folks will think it's powerful, and some will think it's ludicrously over the top.
And quantity counts. "Tawny hair flowing like silk in the warm evening breeze" could be okay if it's out with plainer prose in a paragraph. Then it's florid but not insanely so. If there are also sparkling amethyst eyes, rippling muscles coiling in the moonlight, and a love vaster than the sea and higher than the stars, all in the same paragraph, you probably want to tone it down.
Does this strike anyone else as a personal challenge?
Her tawny hair flowed in obsidian waves down her well formed shoulders. She held the blade daintily in her small hands with long tapering fingers. Her cerulean eyes blazed crimson under the onyx sun. The gentle western wind kissed her form, accenting each rounded curve of her pert breasts. She laughed her scornful laugh as that bold rascal of the waves the Turquoise Buccaneer demanded all her cargo. His muscles rippled, shining slightly from the cask of oil that spilled during their fight. "There is but one way you may rescue your fortune" he growled "and that is if you give yourself to me."
"No, never!" she ejaculated "I'd rather die"
*Stopping now. Walking away from keyboard and trundling off to re-read Barbarian Princess by Laura Buchanan.*
#9778
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 02:47
inquartata02
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*falls over laughing*
I wonder if you officially become an adult when you can read the word "ejaculated," and not giggle.
...I can't. *giggle*
I wonder if you officially become an adult when you can read the word "ejaculated," and not giggle.
...I can't. *giggle*
#9779
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 03:18
Shadow of Light Dragon
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*responds with applause that is akin to the thunder of the wild horses' hooves on the dewy moor as they gallop 'neath the moonlit clouds, their manes tossing in the starry wind, their flanks glistening and heaving...*
(...oooh, yeaaaah. That's some good clappin'.)
(...oooh, yeaaaah. That's some good clappin'.)
#9781
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 11:46
Corker
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...I think that Sue-test deconstruction kind of misses the point.
Mary Sue/Marty Stu is an assemblage of tropes and cliches, all of which reinforce how special, unique and valuable s/he is, and s/he is generally surrounded by other characters who reinforce that idea by either 1) adoring her/him or 2) hating her/him because s/he's so much better than they are.
Any couple of those tropes isn't deadly. I mean, the protagonist has something special going on, whodathunkit. But the more special super unique things that get piled onto the character, the harder s/he is to take seriously. It doesn't matter if the author has provided reasons (or rationalizations). At some point - and this point is different for different readers - the sheer weight of glittering awesomeness that has been piled onto the character breaks the suspension of disbelief.
However, if the sales of Harry Potter and Twilight are anything to go by, there's a definite audience out there for stories with protagonists who, if not outright canon Sues/Stus, are close cousins. I don't find Harry a compelling protag myself (I wandered away from the series after JK Rowling was done with the world-building) but I cannot argue with the success of her franchise. Just because a character is a Sue/Stu doesn't mean that the work is unloveable.
Mary Sue/Marty Stu is an assemblage of tropes and cliches, all of which reinforce how special, unique and valuable s/he is, and s/he is generally surrounded by other characters who reinforce that idea by either 1) adoring her/him or 2) hating her/him because s/he's so much better than they are.
Any couple of those tropes isn't deadly. I mean, the protagonist has something special going on, whodathunkit. But the more special super unique things that get piled onto the character, the harder s/he is to take seriously. It doesn't matter if the author has provided reasons (or rationalizations). At some point - and this point is different for different readers - the sheer weight of glittering awesomeness that has been piled onto the character breaks the suspension of disbelief.
However, if the sales of Harry Potter and Twilight are anything to go by, there's a definite audience out there for stories with protagonists who, if not outright canon Sues/Stus, are close cousins. I don't find Harry a compelling protag myself (I wandered away from the series after JK Rowling was done with the world-building) but I cannot argue with the success of her franchise. Just because a character is a Sue/Stu doesn't mean that the work is unloveable.
Modifié par Corker, 12 mai 2011 - 12:08 .
#9782
Posté 13 mai 2011 - 08:54
Firky
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Heheh. Marty Stu. (I am such a fan fiction virgin.)
#9783
Posté 13 mai 2011 - 04:14
Merilsell
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Argh, Mousestalker, IT BUUUUURNS. xD
Also Raonar, this link is awesome
Too bad you came up with it just now, I'd have loved to shove that site into that ****y anon's face. *whistles*
Also Raonar, this link is awesome
Too bad you came up with it just now, I'd have loved to shove that site into that ****y anon's face. *whistles*
#9784
Posté 13 mai 2011 - 06:12
Raonar
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Merilsell wrote...
Argh, Mousestalker, IT BUUUUURNS. xD
Also Raonar, this link is awesome
Listening to something like this always gets me rolling, so you might want to consider playing it in the background when dealing with bias.
Tell me what you think about the image at 3:32
In other news.... Mount and Blade just made me skip two weeks of updates and, since my story ends on a cliffhanger pretty much every chapter, this is bad. Ah well, hopefully I'll get back to work tomorrow.
#9785
Posté 14 mai 2011 - 12:08
ZerbanDaGreat1
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Ok, I know I've asked this question before, but I'm a moron and I need to ask it again. Blah de blah characters in my fic get a major arcana to represent them. Now, I've got three to pick for; Malcolm, Zevran and Oghren.
To aid picking for Malcolm; he's Chasind and lived fairly peacefully with his family in the Kocari Wilds before being conscripted and made a Grey Warden roughly the same time as Alistair. He's really bitter about being forced to be a Grey Warden, and wishes above all else he could just go back to the way things were. So his personal conflict is between duty to his family and duty to the Wardens. Thoughts?
To aid picking for Malcolm; he's Chasind and lived fairly peacefully with his family in the Kocari Wilds before being conscripted and made a Grey Warden roughly the same time as Alistair. He's really bitter about being forced to be a Grey Warden, and wishes above all else he could just go back to the way things were. So his personal conflict is between duty to his family and duty to the Wardens. Thoughts?
#9786
Posté 14 mai 2011 - 03:33
Raonar
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Hmm, considering what just happened and what will probably happen next, I'd think the Hanged Man.
Shameless Wikipedia copy paste follows:
Sacrifice ----- Letting go ----- Surrendering ----- Passivity
Suspension ----- Acceptance ----- Renunciation ----- Patience
New point of view ----- Contemplation ----- Inner harmony
Conformism ----- Non-action ----- Waiting ----- Giving up
Shameless Wikipedia copy paste follows:
Sacrifice ----- Letting go ----- Surrendering ----- Passivity
Suspension ----- Acceptance ----- Renunciation ----- Patience
New point of view ----- Contemplation ----- Inner harmony
Conformism ----- Non-action ----- Waiting ----- Giving up
Modifié par Raonar, 14 mai 2011 - 03:39 .
#9787
Posté 16 mai 2011 - 02:00
Corker
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I found an Internet quiz that is supposed to tell you what Arcana you are.
Otherwise, looking at this page... Lovers reversed (maybe a stretch?), Chariot (depend on how you see the arc resolved; only if he can bring his two conflicts into union), Death (transformation - an unwanted one, in this case), Tower (proper or reverse) in a similar line of thinking, or the Devil (if the conflict will destroy him).
Otherwise, looking at this page... Lovers reversed (maybe a stretch?), Chariot (depend on how you see the arc resolved; only if he can bring his two conflicts into union), Death (transformation - an unwanted one, in this case), Tower (proper or reverse) in a similar line of thinking, or the Devil (if the conflict will destroy him).
Modifié par Corker, 16 mai 2011 - 02:03 .
#9788
Posté 16 mai 2011 - 11:38
wildhaggisis
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when you first read about your character the tower screamed out at me that was my gut instinct. the tower represents his situation though more then his feelings of conflict. i've dug out my tarot card companion. she has some lovely imagery in it
the tower
a seed drifts down on the wind, deposited lightly to the ground. from it a tree takes root. as years turn, it grows - a slender sapling, glowing with green life. and the years turn - grand and stately, it reaches to the sky, challenges the heavens. and the years turn - it is a mighty giant among giants, lovingly crafted living wood and greenery that is natures masterpiece.
birds come to rest in its glorious limbs, joyous and singing, full of songs inspired by the heat of the sun and the rush of the wind and the endless skies. men and women come to sleep in its velvety, dappled shade and dream visions of running water and soft, dark loam and home. even in the depths of winter, so think and established has its network of branches and foliage become that there is shelter for any traveller, man or beast - a haven for those who wearily pass by.
and the year turns- and it has been here forever, established and deep rooted . its branches touch the vault of the sky, brushing the stars lightly and caressing the moon as she swings past. its roots reach into the earth to wrap around that trembles in the darkness of the deeps.
and then with a fickle turn, as easily as she graced this tree with manifold blessings, nature rescinds her gift. she throws a terrible spear from the heavens. what has taken centuries to coax forth from a tiny seed is destroyed in an instant, in a deadly arc of blinding beautiful, blazing lightning
it sunders.
it sears white-hot
it shatters to splinters.
the earth shudders at the tremors of the blow.
then the meaning section says
catastrophe, sudden change, crises, releasing all emotion, suffering a blow to the ego, revelation, and seeing though illusions. a necessary disrupt to the status quo - violent and explosive heavel is the only way to break through the long established patterns fantasies shattered by the harsh and brutal hand of reality. making a clean and utter severing from the past. it is time to re - examine belief structures and opinions.
of course this might not be suitable for you and personally I'd do some research into all the cards suggested so far and see which works for you the best.
edit the story and meaning where taken from the shadowscapes companion. the shadowscapes deck is beautiful and can be found online at http://www.shadowsca...main.php?suit=0
the tower
a seed drifts down on the wind, deposited lightly to the ground. from it a tree takes root. as years turn, it grows - a slender sapling, glowing with green life. and the years turn - grand and stately, it reaches to the sky, challenges the heavens. and the years turn - it is a mighty giant among giants, lovingly crafted living wood and greenery that is natures masterpiece.
birds come to rest in its glorious limbs, joyous and singing, full of songs inspired by the heat of the sun and the rush of the wind and the endless skies. men and women come to sleep in its velvety, dappled shade and dream visions of running water and soft, dark loam and home. even in the depths of winter, so think and established has its network of branches and foliage become that there is shelter for any traveller, man or beast - a haven for those who wearily pass by.
and the year turns- and it has been here forever, established and deep rooted . its branches touch the vault of the sky, brushing the stars lightly and caressing the moon as she swings past. its roots reach into the earth to wrap around that trembles in the darkness of the deeps.
and then with a fickle turn, as easily as she graced this tree with manifold blessings, nature rescinds her gift. she throws a terrible spear from the heavens. what has taken centuries to coax forth from a tiny seed is destroyed in an instant, in a deadly arc of blinding beautiful, blazing lightning
it sunders.
it sears white-hot
it shatters to splinters.
the earth shudders at the tremors of the blow.
then the meaning section says
catastrophe, sudden change, crises, releasing all emotion, suffering a blow to the ego, revelation, and seeing though illusions. a necessary disrupt to the status quo - violent and explosive heavel is the only way to break through the long established patterns fantasies shattered by the harsh and brutal hand of reality. making a clean and utter severing from the past. it is time to re - examine belief structures and opinions.
of course this might not be suitable for you and personally I'd do some research into all the cards suggested so far and see which works for you the best.
edit the story and meaning where taken from the shadowscapes companion. the shadowscapes deck is beautiful and can be found online at http://www.shadowsca...main.php?suit=0
Modifié par wildhaggisis, 16 mai 2011 - 11:41 .
#9789
Posté 16 mai 2011 - 11:57
ZerbanDaGreat1
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Thanks, but I should probably offer more info for a better frame of reference 
*lol spoilers for next chapter*
So Malcolm really doesn't like being a Warden. So much so that after his Joining he ran off the first chance he got to find his family again. He managed a little time with them before the Wardens tracked him down and ordered him to come back or face the consequences. With much reluctance he did so, but in the Wilds he caught Flemeth's eye. Seeing him as an opportunity, she made a deal with him. She promised to use her vast knowledge to try and find a way to remove the taint from him so he can reunite with his family. Even if it isn't possible, Malcolm's desperate enough to try. In return he does her bidding without question - and he's a shoo-in for the Dark Ritual come the final battle.
Indeed, it's why he survived Ostagar. Predicting the outcome of the battle, she convinced him to leave camp for a quick visit to his family to make sure they were all right. He came across them fleeing darkspawn and helped them escape, unknowingly missing the battle. Now since his family fled he doesn't even know where they are, so Flemeth promises to help him find them too.
All this leads to a rather reluctant fight as he respects the party, but cares for his family too much to let them stand in his way. Ven attempts to get him to reconsider by saying he can still do good as a Warden. When Malcolm retorts that being a Warden will always seem like a punishment to him, Ven replies that he and everyone else in the party is willing to do everything they can for him because damn it they care about him too. At first Malcolm just backs off and lets Flemeth do it, too guilty to actually kill them, but he changes his mind at the last second and deals the killing blow.
After the fight Malcolm decides that he'll still find his family, but remain with the Wardens. Ven promises to help him find his family.
*lol spoilers for next chapter*
So Malcolm really doesn't like being a Warden. So much so that after his Joining he ran off the first chance he got to find his family again. He managed a little time with them before the Wardens tracked him down and ordered him to come back or face the consequences. With much reluctance he did so, but in the Wilds he caught Flemeth's eye. Seeing him as an opportunity, she made a deal with him. She promised to use her vast knowledge to try and find a way to remove the taint from him so he can reunite with his family. Even if it isn't possible, Malcolm's desperate enough to try. In return he does her bidding without question - and he's a shoo-in for the Dark Ritual come the final battle.
Indeed, it's why he survived Ostagar. Predicting the outcome of the battle, she convinced him to leave camp for a quick visit to his family to make sure they were all right. He came across them fleeing darkspawn and helped them escape, unknowingly missing the battle. Now since his family fled he doesn't even know where they are, so Flemeth promises to help him find them too.
All this leads to a rather reluctant fight as he respects the party, but cares for his family too much to let them stand in his way. Ven attempts to get him to reconsider by saying he can still do good as a Warden. When Malcolm retorts that being a Warden will always seem like a punishment to him, Ven replies that he and everyone else in the party is willing to do everything they can for him because damn it they care about him too. At first Malcolm just backs off and lets Flemeth do it, too guilty to actually kill them, but he changes his mind at the last second and deals the killing blow.
After the fight Malcolm decides that he'll still find his family, but remain with the Wardens. Ven promises to help him find his family.
#9790
Posté 16 mai 2011 - 02:26
Corker
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wildhaggisis wrote...
the shadowscapes deck is beautiful and can be found online at http://www.shadowsca...main.php?suit=0
*squees* Stephanie Pui-Mun Law! Gads, I used to stalk her page on Elfwood!
Hum. I see the meaning she's got listed for Chariot is totally different from the one I yanked last night. Nnnot terribly surprised... not like there's a United Tarot Authority out there...
Tower still seems to really fit him. He barely gets settled into one idea of how life is when it's violently upended. Family man? No, Grey Warden! Grey Warden? No, double agent for Flemeth! Double agent for Flemeth? No, a loyal friend!
And (I would guess?) that his presence in a scene would (for much of his arc) challenge the worldview of the other characters, giving a "Grey Wardens suck!" counterpoint to their cheerleading.
#9791
Posté 16 mai 2011 - 09:25
wildhaggisis
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Corker wrote...
*squees* Stephanie Pui-Mun Law! Gads, I used to stalk her page on Elfwood!
glad i'm not her only fan
i stalk her blog and deviant art account. i've also got her watercolour how too books. there compleate gems. learnt some really cool technigues from her 
yup i often find that one book says one thing another says another, not always best for the beginner.
like corker has suggested i'd still say tower by the sounds of it hes reexamining his beliefes and opinions throught the story in which from the interpretation i know that fits him perfectly. and as i said majour upheavel in his life and his life falling appart in his eyes fits the tower as well.
Modifié par wildhaggisis, 16 mai 2011 - 09:25 .
#9792
Posté 18 mai 2011 - 11:23
ZerbanDaGreat1
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Hmmkay. So the Tower seems the best fit for Malcolm. However, I had originally planned that for Oghren. So... what's a good replacement for our favourite dwarf?
#9793
Posté 18 mai 2011 - 11:38
Corker
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Oghren: The Fool (although without the Fool's optimistic connotations), Hermit Reversed (an inability to develop wisdom), Judgment (repentance, rebirth - if you plan to rehabilitate him), the Devil (failure and self-destruction - if you don't). The Moon? (He's fooling himself? Or is this saved for Morrigan, as the party's biggest liar-by-omission?)
The Devil is probably too hard on him. If you're going strictly by Origins-Oghren, I think I prefer Judgment. But if you're including his characterization in Awakening, Hermit Reversed. He's stuck and can't learn from his tragedies and move on.
The Devil is probably too hard on him. If you're going strictly by Origins-Oghren, I think I prefer Judgment. But if you're including his characterization in Awakening, Hermit Reversed. He's stuck and can't learn from his tragedies and move on.
#9794
Posté 18 mai 2011 - 05:39
Raonar
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Honestly, I thought Oghren got seriously shafted in Awakening. He's present even if the warden is orlesian, meaning that the epilogue where he goes on to have kids (and weeps in joy) after the Ultimate Sacrifice ending was bull.
So... they basically ruined his life for the sake of comic relief and some sense of connection with Origins.
sigh.
So... they basically ruined his life for the sake of comic relief and some sense of connection with Origins.
sigh.
#9795
Posté 26 mai 2011 - 09:23
Merilsell
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*shakes the sleepy thread*
So what do we know about Antiva, aside of the crows, I mean? I'm about to write a scene there, so I was wondering about its landscape and such. I have a certain image for the rather sad scene already in mind, but it is never wrong to ask for a second opinion, right?
So what do we know about Antiva, aside of the crows, I mean? I'm about to write a scene there, so I was wondering about its landscape and such. I have a certain image for the rather sad scene already in mind, but it is never wrong to ask for a second opinion, right?
#9796
Posté 26 mai 2011 - 09:44
Maria13
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Renaissance Italy, I'd say, and Spain... Think of Assassin's Creed if you will... Heat, wine, artists, silk merchants etc.
#9797
Posté 27 mai 2011 - 01:46
inquartata02
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Also, according to Oghren, it's full of... Antivans.
#9798
Posté 27 mai 2011 - 04:18
lobi
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MEXICO!
you are welcome
you are welcome
Modifié par lobi, 27 mai 2011 - 04:26 .
#9799
Posté 27 mai 2011 - 11:44
Corker
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Mexico doesn't sound bad, actually.
I think Zevran calls Antiva City a 'jewel in the sands' or somesuch, so I always picture a city built in a seaside oasis - desert all around, maybe with just enough agriculture at the mouth of a river delta (Egypt?) to support the city. I don't recall if he mentions canals; even if he does, I always see the city at a distance in my mind, and it looks more sprawling and flat and not very canal'ed. maradeux did a short story that mentioned gardens of citrus and cypress, and that image has always stayed with me.
My head-canon also makes the Tellari Swamps (mentioned in a banter with Morrigan) a salt-marsh, and Treviso (shown on the map) is built on/near it. I have absolutely no support in canon for this; I don't even know if the Tellari Swamps are on the world map and if so, where.
I think Zevran calls Antiva City a 'jewel in the sands' or somesuch, so I always picture a city built in a seaside oasis - desert all around, maybe with just enough agriculture at the mouth of a river delta (Egypt?) to support the city. I don't recall if he mentions canals; even if he does, I always see the city at a distance in my mind, and it looks more sprawling and flat and not very canal'ed. maradeux did a short story that mentioned gardens of citrus and cypress, and that image has always stayed with me.
My head-canon also makes the Tellari Swamps (mentioned in a banter with Morrigan) a salt-marsh, and Treviso (shown on the map) is built on/near it. I have absolutely no support in canon for this; I don't even know if the Tellari Swamps are on the world map and if so, where.
#9800
Posté 27 mai 2011 - 03:21
Merilsell
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So sand, Mexico, Italy during the Renaissance, it often rains and the air always has the scent of flowers. Thanks...it's enough to make a picture of it for me. Well the scene will be Zevran's fade dream ( I write a new one because I don't like the in-game one much), so there won't be many happy or flowery images anyway. I want it dark and despairing, it is about Rinna after all. *rubs the hands in glee*
What?...I like to torture characters...it's an author hobby of mine *whistles*
What?...I like to torture characters...it's an author hobby of mine *whistles*
