10369 réponses à ce sujet

[Lakhi]

@firecleaner. Again though, there's no potential for an active and evenly platformed discussion for an author if a neg review is left on a site like tvtropes. All any response would seem like there would really be an attempt to grab at straws. As for merilsell's response, she's actually delivered a fairly lengthy and appropriate response to a similar review not too long ago and personally I don't think she needs to type it out again. I feel as though lady demonique likely overstepped the purpose of the page when she left a review like that. Now she's perfectly entitled to her opinion, but if she felt that strongly against it then she shouldn't have left the review to begin with. Fanfiction isn't a published or purchased product like you say, someone puts their time, blood and sweat into creating something that they and others can enjoy. The review in question simply felt, again, as though the author wanted people to avoid reading it. Her opinion should not be the overlying factor by which someone decides to read, that should be up to the reader. I'd welcome said reviewer to talk about it here if she truly feels that strongly against it.

[Punahedan]

Oh, hey, look, white-knighters! HAI. *wave* Not really who I was directing my comments to, but whatever.

No one has called anyone names, insulted the story, or insulted the author. Therefore, no bashing. I have seen no one say "awful." No one has been vicious so far. No one singled out anything, either - what, do you expect Lady Demonique to go through every piece of fiction on FFN and review it? This gets undue attention and needs a lot of editing before it can be regarded as something we ought to read and praise. The comment she made about " Not worth all the work slogging through all those chapters, for sure" indicates she's read it, and thinks it's not necessary for others to go through it because it's just not up to par with other fics... even though the author seems to regard herself as among the best. This isn't rude. Blunt, perhaps, but not everyone feels the need to dress up their criticism or put sugar to make the medicine go down easier.

People have pointed out specific problems: poor characterization, slow story progression in a questionable direction, the writing does not engage the reader. Lady Demonique herself pointed out that Alistair gets angry if the PC is rude in-game, and yet this does not translate into the fic - why? Why should we need to read through fifty-something chapters in order to see potential in the character? We need to see her notions challenged, and yet characters say, "Oh, you! I'm okay with your behavior!" Even if the author wanted to challenge the supporting characters' views about Dalish, they don't do that either; they need to question their beliefs too.

Yet the author insists on ignoring previously gracious ways of pointing out errors and insisting she's the best writer ever and that people are attacking her... Not a wonder that people get more and more blunt. The author's behavior is just as much a part of the fic as the writing is.

No one has to accept any of the criticisms, but one ought to at least respect the time and energy people devote to at least read and comment on it. Merilsell has not. She has been rude to others, herself - a poor showing.

To continue the child analogy - if the child is chewing on things and knocking stuff over and saying bad words and generally just acting poorly, another adult should point this out to the parent so that she can raise the child to be good, smart, and pleasant. The parent that ignores the evidence pointed out is a poor parent. A bluntly phrased critique of the child's behavior does not invalidate the contents of the critique.

Not that the fic should be considered a child - it's a piece of creative work, not a being that can grow and develop on its own by touching and seeing and smelling. It is entirely guided by the author. Therefore, it is the author's responsibility to make it worthwhile.

firecleaner is right, too. If you put it up in public, expect it to be publicly reviewed. And when you respond publicly... that is also taken into account. People will start to ask if their time is worth being spent reading and reviewing something when the author won't give two damns.

Modifié par Hawkeyed Cai Li, 17 juillet 2011 - 06:29 .

[firecleaner]

 @Lakhi She repsonded but the Lady Demonique cannot respond.

Marathari, is that you?  (The wonderful anon reviewer who accused me of Mary Sue-ism, back in the days) 

Sigh.  By now, I have somewhat reached the stance where I have grown tired to explain WHY I wrote Lenya as I did, or why the other characters react to her like they do. If you don't get it, you don't get it. End of line. 

But what do I know, I only write what comes randomly in my mind without any direction, anyway. Maybe it had been more popular if I would have turned it into a giant hate-fest between Lenya and the other characters for the entire story. Guess that would have satisfied this reader more >__>

Well, f*ck you. Seriously.

Where I'm from you don't curse someone off on a public forum because they left you criticism. If you're a mature adult you just move on... the author responded to the reviewer in a very sophmoric manner. It makes her look bad honestly.  

Modifié par firecleaner, 17 juillet 2011 - 06:42 .

[mousestalker]

This raises a meta issue that has been discussed before. How do you handle reviews that you perceive as unnecessarily harsh? Do you selectively reply to the bits that seem merited, do you fire back in anger, do you ignore, take out mafia contracts on the reviewers' dogs or what?

To date I haven't really seen anything terribly harsh. Nor do I want to. I'd probably ignore or say something blandly polite, but I don't know for sure.

[Merilsell]

Sigh, as Lakhi so wonderfully said, I have been through this many many times. So I have grown tired to type out again and again, but since you both are so passionate about it ( I wonder why?) Let me do it AGAIN. I 'd have rather taken this to PM's but whatever. Sigh.

Hawkeyed Cai Li wrote...

Why would any human come to enjoy the presence of someone that does nothing but hiss, spit, and rage about humans sucking? The other characters don't have to learn to love her for her rude, crazy behavior - the main character's behavior needs to reflect growth and experience in dealing with people outside her original culture. Compromise works both ways, yah?

Sure.

And it is also a thing that does not happen from one day to the other. If you would have grown up all your life hating a certain group, because they are responsible for your parents death and losing what your whole race once had, you don't go and embrace them warmly upon meeting them. Such things have to evolve in a slow and sensible matter and need TIME. For such things to happen, you need to have one or more character willing to deal with her with more or less patience, a so called anti-pole. Surely, I could have Alistair written as someone who bickers with her 24/7 and hate her guts, but there would have been no character progression possible then, on BOTH sides. It would ended in a ...well never- ending hate-fest, which the reader there obviously missed. It would have made a very dull, one-sided FF, given Lenya's initial premise of character.

Lenya is a very flawed character and deliberately written by me this way. She would have rather die than to go with Duncan and never wanted to become a Grey Warden. Heavy guilt issues and grief about Tamlen, being thrown out in a world she doesn't know, plus losing everything she'd know, also the factor of how she was raised before (years and years of brewing hatred toward humans) doesn't add up in the nicest Dalish character eventually. So yeah, in the beginning she is very much a bitter, immature and rude Dalish brat with almost no ties to morality. She is doing what she thinks is right, damn the consequences. Hence her over the top- violences acts and such in the beginning.

Though this rudeness is also mostly a defensive mechanism to cope with the loss of her old life, guilt and being thrown in a unknown world, as said before. It makes it difficult for others to handle her and her behavior, of course. And this is fully intended on her part (and by me btw). Keeping others away by rudeness is easier than to loose once more people that she holds dear.

Maybe my perception of Alistair is what makes the difference here. I see him as a person, who after have lost everything he holds dear in Ostagar desperately want to connect with the only part of his family (which the Wardens clearly for him were) left. Which is Lenya. Again there are many drawbacks, stumbling and failed attempts doing so. It is in fact a learning process that again needs both time and patience. Influences goes both way and Alistair simply learned within time to somewhat deal with her, due to the fact that she let glimpse other parts of her personality which are far away from the mask of hatred and the bitterness she normally wears or better said wore. If Lenya would have stayed the same the whole time, a rabid hating Dalish without these little glimpses of something more, then Alistair would surely had give up trying to understand her or even to talk with her. I have actually written about that, as well. It is in there. So it is in no way unfounded or flat characterization in my eyes. 

That reverting back to jerkass how it was so "concritically" and nicely called, is actually part of falling back into behavior that is safe, known. Never submit, never let someone see how it really looks inside of her. Those shells hold up a long time and only get within time cracks, which are due to Alistair's patient behavior toward her, showing her that not all humans are as bad as thought. As said it is an influence that goes both ways, a long learning process that needs time on both sides. I do believe that life and the experiences within changes one character, for the good or the worse in the end. What I don't have in my story is stalemate, as this "review" implied. A character can never be the same in the end as she/he was in the beginning. Period. I'm perfectly aware that Lenya is a character who polarize, either you like her and what she is slowly growing into, or not. It is really that simple

As for the pace. It is done in a deliberately slow way, to let this changes happen in a sensible way and time. Every event within influenced and changed Lenya to some extent after the initial premise of her character. And she is far from being where I want her to be in the end, a lot of her character has yet to be explored. Everything happens for a reason, after all. If you don't see that happening at all or if the pace is too slow for your taste, well okay.That happens. There are many, other stories waiting for you. It is really that easy.

When you have to defend and explain your character outside the fic and when you're so passive-aggressive and have a god-complex when doing so... that's not a good sign.

As said by the other posters and above, Lady D. concrit is perfectly legit. I'm open to that. I have a review page, one can PM me and we can discuss things. Perfectly fine. What I can't stand is bashing, which It what is done with that, or shall I say YOUR Comment there. It clearly is labeled as "stay away from this story it sucks hard." This is not how concrit is done, nor was the one review written by Anon b*tching Marethari- whom I do believe you have some connection to, in whatever form, however.

I'm at the point where I say don't like it don't read it, because I have grown weary of explaining me and my writings over and over again. It is not that I earn money from it, nor do I think this is the best thing ever. I'm doing this for fun, to explore a Dalish character that is all but duty and responsible-minded, or in other words different from the pile of Sunshine happy Wardens already existing. And I have put a lot of thought and effort into writing this story and are happy that some people are enjoying what I write.

If you are not one of them, that is fine. Move on. I do the same when a story is not my taste. I simple click the back button and go to story XY that is more to my taste.

Easy as.

Edit for typos and adding a sentence.

Modifié par Merilsell, 17 juillet 2011 - 08:09 .

[Sialater]

I'd actually like to address a couple things here. I've read the beginning of your fic, Merisell, just to clarify. I've not gotten farther due to real life, but I intend to.

As a writer, if you keep having to explain your character out side the work itself, doesn't that mean that your characterization has fallen flat somewhere, or that you're doing something wrong in her characterization? That's what they taught me in college at least.

My second point is, perhaps this Lady Demonique is one of the authors of those fics on your profile that you say you can't stand. This, in my book, would be public bashing. But that's just my opinion, don't go spreading it around.

[Saibh]

I don't think people necessarily take issue with your Warden hating humans--I think they take issue with how the companions respond to it, which they feel is out of character. The thing is, we have veritable evidence on how a character will or won't respond to certain behaviors. If you're talking about fanfiction of a movie or book, you can only guess what the relationship between two characters might be if one was cruel or kind instead of kind or cruel--one can still successfully argue what might be OOC, but we have proof positive that certain characters respond less than favorably to being treated poorly from DAO/DAII. Actual quantifiable results.

Alistair, for instance, takes massive hits to his approval if you're insulting or rude. He doesn't mind teasing, but he does mind insults. He canonically doesn't make friends with people who don't want to be friends with him. Yes, even when it's "justified". If he says something not terribly intelligent and you call him stupid, he doesn't like you for it. He might agree with you on his flaws, but still not like hearing insults on them.

Anything posted publicly is submitted to public review. That is the way of things. I suppose it's fair to make, say, a thread on the BSN and deliberately label it saying you don't want any negative critique or criticism, but FF.Net doesn't run things that way. In fact, they refuse to let you delete reviews because they're negative. If they give you the time to leave a thoughtful review, even if it's highly negative, then clearly they want you to improve. Flaming isn't acceptable, but if you can see the marks of analysis in the review, it is valid, even if it is wholly negative.

Modifié par Saibh, 17 juillet 2011 - 08:17 .

[Lakhi]

Meh, if its all the same to you guys, let's drop the issue. We're all human beings entitled to our opinions and there have been compelling arguments from both sides but right now this discussion is really becoming something that should go to pms.

As for handling negative criticism, as i've said before, criticism should be handled on a medium where the platform for effective responses are equal and give. Both parties a chance to provide their voice. I personally felt that the manner by which lady demonique left her feedback to be a bit of a cheapnshot and there are those that would disagree with me, fine, whatever, let's leave it be.

Also I resent that white knight call, i'm merely another author here with an opinion too, i've gotten neg reviews too (and pms) but at least the individuals aren't going out in public and calling my stuff terrible.


Moving on... who hates writing dialogue for Howe? I feel like a politician when i'm going from his perspective.

[Sialater]

Writing for him and Udina make me need a shower.

[Punahedan]

Saibh wrote...

I don't think people necessarily take issue with your Warden hating humans--I think they take issue with how the companions respond to it, which they feel is out of character. The thing is, we have veritable evidence on how a character will or won't respond to certain behaviors. If you're talking about fanfiction of a movie or book, you can only guess what the relationship between two characters might be if one was cruel or kind instead of kind or cruel--one can still successfully argue what might be OOC, but we have proof positive that certain characters respond less than favorably to being treated poorly from DAO/DAII. Actual quantifiable results.

Alistair, for instance, takes massive hits to his approval if you're insulting or rude. He doesn't mind teasing, but he does mind insults. He canonically doesn't make friends with people who don't want to be friends with him. Yes, even when it's "justified". If he says something not terribly intelligent and you call him stupid, he doesn't like you for it. He might agree with you on his flaws, but still not like hearing insults on them.

Precisely. I specifically said that characters need to both compromise. So this means there should definitely be an approach to progress. However, the way it has been in the fic is that the characters let her walk all over them. She needs to have her views challenged so that she can't generalize and can't turn it into a hatefest. No one expects her to break the habit on her own -- but I don't see anyone else approaching her about it either. "Patience" doesn't seem to do anything. And Alistair has not shown patience with a rude, insulting Warden in-game either. You lose points with him that way. So no matter what your take is, that's not what his writers saw.

I would like to challenge you, Merrilsell, to pick a fic you don't think is of great quality and give us a demonstration of what you consider concrit, because clearly we are severely disagreed upon what qualifies as concrit and what does not. Because giving specific reasons why a fic is not worth reading does not constitute as bashing. I would tell someone Twilight is not worth reading for x and y reasons. That's not bashing, that's a review.

When people read through something despite the fact that they don't like it and give you a list of things that don't seem right, you do not say "**** you. Seriously." That is serious disrespect in a review that did not come even close to an ad hominem. You don't respect the reader that doesn't give you flowery praise.

nor was the one review written by Anon b*tching Marethari- whom I do believe you have some connection to, in whatever form, however.

Yes. YES. OH MY GOD HOW DID YOU KNOW. WE ARE ALL OUT TO GET YOU. THAT'S EXACTLY THE PLAN. This is all a conspiracy to make you look bad on the internet. Because it totally matters on the internet.

Edit: Since no one seems to want to linger on it, this is my last post on the subject. But people should seriously consider what kind of respect they give to others and what kind they expect in return.

Modifié par Hawkeyed Cai Li, 17 juillet 2011 - 08:34 .

[Saibh]

Lakhi wrote...

Meh, if its all the same to you guys, let's drop the issue. We're all human beings entitled to our opinions and there have been compelling arguments from both sides but right now this discussion is really becoming something that should go to pms.

As for handling negative criticism, as i've said before, criticism should be handled on a medium where the platform for effective responses are equal and give. Both parties a chance to provide their voice. I personally felt that the manner by which lady demonique left her feedback to be a bit of a cheapnshot and there are those that would disagree with me, fine, whatever, let's leave it be.

I disagree. Criticism exists for two reasons--to instruct the author and inform the reader. Most criticism occurs in outlets where the author or director or musician or what have you cannot respond. The power to respond to the critic is all well and good, but we're walking into murkier territory when you think that they should have the power to explain. The critic can--should, even--only respond to the tools given to him or her in the context of the story. If the progress of the story does not make sense or seems flawed until explained, it is no less flawed. The reader does not have the opportunity to play tour guide with the author.

Some authors like to address that in author's notes, but those are possibly the worst and most obtrusive way to deal with explaining plot elements. The psychology of the character and the aspects of the setting should make sense inside the story, or the author is failing at his or her job. Books and stories exist to be read, not written, when they are posted in such a place that they can be viewed publicily. It's fine for the author to write it for herself, but she must accept that criticism will exist so long as she makes it available to others.

I'll point out that you do not tell Merilsell to refrain from speaking of these negative reviews or feelings on the subject. In fact, you respond to them. So then, it's probably best not to tell others to refrain from responding to her. Those responses are just as valid as yours.

[erynnar]

Lakhi wrote...


Moving on... who hates writing dialogue for Howe? I feel like a politician when i'm going from his perspective.

I like writing for Howe, and I hate writing for Howe. I keep a few gallons of brain bleach handy. Takes about a week to two get him out of my head. *shudders*

[erynnar]

Who else do you all find either hard writing for, or need a shower afterwards? Or are there any characters that seem to taunt you with writing them? Wynne was hard for me to write for some reason (from her PoV, not from the outside looking in at her).

[Lakhi]

erynnar wrote...

Who else do you all find either hard writing for, or need a shower afterwards? Or are there any characters that seem to taunt you with writing them? Wynne was hard for me to write for some reason (from her PoV, not from the outside looking in at her).

Leliana at first was a bit tough at first for reasons I can't fathom, perhaps it was just the nature of her dialogue. But the real stumper for me came with Sten, at first I really didn't know how to capture the tone of his voice but I guess with time it's gotten better. As for characters that I hate to write in general, I think I've made it clear that I ****ing hate writing rendon howe.

On the flipside, I love writing from Alistair's perspective because he's like a drinking buddy, I know almost exactly what he'd do in most situations and it works out pretty easy to capture him. Morrigan is also fun to write in that she's got that sort of mystique and ****iness in her attitude, but there are also hints of vulnerability in her persona that strike out from time to time.

[Corker]

Lakhi wrote...

what do you people do if you're taking a break/vacation irl for your fics? I'm going to be gone for a month or so doing stuff abroad and likely won't have time to update/write =/.

Before I started posting my long serial fic (well, long by my standards), I wrote something like 3-4 chapters.  I posted one a week while writing more.  Then, when the winter holidays came along and wrecked my schedule, I had buffer to post.  All in all, I only missed one week due to wrestling with my ending, and I posted some amusing filler instead.

If I wasn't able to get to the computer at all, I'd probably post a 'chapter' that said "Hey readers, no updates til next month! I'm taking a break."

[erynnar]

Corker wrote...

Lakhi wrote...

what do you people do if you're taking a break/vacation irl for your fics? I'm going to be gone for a month or so doing stuff abroad and likely won't have time to update/write =/.

Before I started posting my long serial fic (well, long by my standards), I wrote something like 3-4 chapters.  I posted one a week while writing more.  Then, when the winter holidays came along and wrecked my schedule, I had buffer to post.  All in all, I only missed one week due to wrestling with my ending, and I posted some amusing filler instead.

If I wasn't able to get to the computer at all, I'd probably post a 'chapter' that said "Hey readers, no updates til next month! I'm taking a break."

Yeah, what Corker said. I would just post a notice to my fans. I always apologize lately for being so slow in posting. I used to post everyday, but RL decided to put the kibosh on that. *sigh*

[erynnar]

Lakhi wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Who else do you all find either hard writing for, or need a shower afterwards? Or are there any characters that seem to taunt you with writing them? Wynne was hard for me to write for some reason (from her PoV, not from the outside looking in at her).

Leliana at first was a bit tough at first for reasons I can't fathom, perhaps it was just the nature of her dialogue. But the real stumper for me came with Sten, at first I really didn't know how to capture the tone of his voice but I guess with time it's gotten better. As for characters that I hate to write in general, I think I've made it clear that I ****ing hate writing rendon howe.

On the flipside, I love writing from Alistair's perspective because he's like a drinking buddy, I know almost exactly what he'd do in most situations and it works out pretty easy to capture him. Morrigan is also fun to write in that she's got that sort of mystique and ****iness in her attitude, but there are also hints of vulnerability in her persona that strike out from time to time.

Yeah Ali and Morri are personal favs. As is Flemeth, because I can hear Kate Mulgrew's voice in my head saying the lines I wrote. That woman's voice is pure gold.

I also love to write Shale, Sten and Zev. Zev in particular. I am enjoying writing Daveth (close to Zev in personality) in my Orgins' AU fic. I hated how he died, so I kept him alive to give him a hero's death. Writing him making Ali jealous while firlting with my Warden is fun.

[erynnar]

OH and I forgot to say that I love writing interaction dialogue between Leli and Morri and Wynne, as they are all oil, water, and fire. ROFL!

[Lakhi]

Yeah when I first started writing I was able to release chapters continuously for like 8 days or so due to how much I floated when I first registered the FFN account, then I started sending stuff to mack to beta and I guess I started to float a lot less =P. Oh well, I'll work on it when I get the shot, who knows, maybe I'll write stuff there and just send it when I get back

[Corker]

mousestalker wrote...

This raises a meta issue that has been discussed before. How do you handle reviews that you perceive as unnecessarily harsh? .

I haven't gotten one yet (no FF account) but I have a general Internet policy for this sort of thing.

If the review asked any questions, I'd answer them.  And then I would not visit that site or thread. Ever, if I could help it.  (Edit: Or at least a few days.  I've done that on this thread, in fact.)

If I couldn't help it, I'd do my best not to read any replies; if silence did not end the exchange, and things got harrassing, I'd either exercise mod authority or ask for it to be exercised (depend on what site I'm on).

If the review did not ask any questions, but just ranted, go straight to Avoid.

Once in a blue moon, if I have to explain myself, the other party says something reasonable, along the lines of, "Oh, I get it. I don't like it, but I get it, thanks."  Usually, though, it just devolves into trolling on semantics and tone, and ignoring it was the right call. 

I figure I'm pretty articulate.  If my story wasn't clear, and an OOC explanation on top of that *still* doesn't satisfy you, nothing I can say is going to do any good and we're just going to yell at each other.  I got two small kids and a full time job with a commute in DC traffic; I don't need any more stress, thanks.  You can yell in this room all by yourself, I'll be elsewhere.

Modifié par Corker, 17 juillet 2011 - 10:18 .

[Lakhi]

erynnar wrote...

OH and I forgot to say that I love writing interaction dialogue between Leli and Morri and Wynne, as they are all oil, water, and fire. ROFL!

Flemeth is fun too, but I haven't written a whole lot of her, I have a very similar character I'm writing in one of my upcoming chapters though ^^.

[inquartata02]

I love writing Flemeth. Love love love.

[erynnar]

Corker wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

This raises a meta issue that has been discussed before. How do you handle reviews that you perceive as unnecessarily harsh? .

I haven't gotten one yet (no FF account) but I have a general Internet policy for this sort of thing.

If the review asked any questions, I'd answer them.  And then I would not visit that site or thread. Ever, if I could help it.  (Edit: Or at least a few days.  I've done that on this thread, in fact.)

If I couldn't help it, I'd do my best not to read any replies; if silence did not end the exchange, and things got harrassing, I'd either exercise mod authority or ask for it to be exercised (depend on what site I'm on).

If the review did not ask any questions, but just ranted, go straight to Avoid.

Once in a blue moon, if I have to explain myself, the other party says something reasonable, along the lines of, "Oh, I get it. I don't like it, but I get it, thanks."  Usually, though, it just devolves into trolling on semantics and tone, and ignoring it was the right call. 

I figure I'm pretty articulate.  If my story wasn't clear, and an OOC explanation on top of that *still* doesn't satisfy you, nothing I can say is going to do any good and we're just going to yell at each other.  I got two small kids and a full time job with a commute in DC traffic; I don't need any more stress, thanks.  You can yell in this room all by yourself, I'll be elsewhere.

Everything Corker said, minus the two small human children (fur babies here) and the commute in DC traffic.  I once got a reviewer who criticized me for calling a guy who raped a 15 year old in my fic a pedophile because DA is like Medival England and they got married at 10. It wasn't mean or yelling, just very insistant. So I politely wrote back that I wasn't writing my version of Thedas exactly like Medieval England, and that I wasn't sure that BioWare was writing it so that 10 year olds got married and had kids either. I understood where they were coming from but ...

Usually if they have questions, I answer them politely. If they got hostile, I would ignore them. I have been lucky, I haven't had any one go after me.

[erynnar]

inquartata02 wrote...

I love writing Flemeth. Love love love.

ROFL! You are a Flemeth fan and a Kate Mulgrew one just like me. I also love writing Shale, she's so...cranky. "I could squish it's head like a lemon if it wishes. Squi-ish."

I also have an OC character I made up as a foil for Oghren, both of whom I love to write for. Olwyna is her name, the plump new cook of Highever castle. She used to cook for The Crimson Oars, but they didn't appreciate her cooking. She shaved Oghren once for stealing her cooking wine, then proceeded to give him a bath in Highever Lake. ah, good times.


Oh, Olwyna is strong as an ox and doesnt' take ****. Think "honey badger.":lol:

Modifié par erynnar, 17 juillet 2011 - 10:33 .

[Lakhi]

Shale is fun to write, I get so many hk 47 vibes from her hehe