10369 réponses à ce sujet

[erynnar]

WOOT Sia!!!!! I have you on my alerts list, must read.... *HUGS*

[Sialater]

Thanks, erynnar!

[maxernst]

There's an article on fanfiction at the Guardian website here:

http://www.guardian....es-more-respect

One thing I would like to comment is George R.R. Martin's notion that fanfiction is bad training for writers because they don't learn to build the world background and characters themselves. I have a couple of responses to that, one being that not having to do that allows you to concentrate on other aspects of writing. When learning any skill, it's easiest to focus on improving particular aspects and techniques rather than the whole. I also find that, because you already have an idea what a character should sound like, it forces you to watch your characterization closely. It's difficult to give characters a distinctive voice (even some skilled professional writers end up with characters who talk very much alike--Douglas Coupland comes to mind), and I think trying to write for established characters gives you practice in individualizing voices, not that I would claim to a good job at it. And even with world-building, trying to work out how an established world works helps you to understand how the social, political, cultural and economic aspects of that world fit together, which I think is helpful when you do want to design worlds of your own.

[Klidi]

I agree with you, and that article - and I must say there are more 'gems' then I expected when I started reading the fanfiction.

But I can also see Martin's point.

Even in fanfiction, the author must create background beyond what is mentioned in the original work - especially if it's a game, where many things remain hidden or are simplified for the sake of gameplay. The author must always be aware of the character's motivations, and for that he needs to know the character's background. Of course, there are fanfiction writers, who will try to figure out how the world in the story works and pay close attention to characterisations - and usually they are the authors of those 'gems', or at least pretty good stories.

But let's face it, there are many more who simply ignore it, because they don't know how to do it. And relying on someone else's work won't help them.

But bigger danger for starting authors that want to learn writing fanfiction is that they can't develop their own style. Some even think that the 'style' and 'proper grammar and correct spelling' are the same. Every time an author tries be bit more creative, he receives flames, or 'friendly recommendations' to change it, if he wants more reviews. And so instead trying to find out the style that best suits them and best expresses what they wish, the authors try to find the most average style that will appeal to the biggest number of readers.

Which usually means they focus on plot, action and witty dialogue lines, but very often neglect background, description or deeper characterisation, and the stories lack atmosphere, mood, tension - it all sounds the same, whether the character is sitting in a bar drinking coffee and trying to seduce his/her love interest, or hunting down vampires on old graveyard. The characters always react the same way, so the 'witty' lines soon become predictable and not fun at all.

Even in DA fandom, where is much less crap than eslwhere (I think this is because DA generally attracts more mature people, and they often already have experience in wiriting) you can find such stories. Stories where characters travel to the camp, or where only three characters are in the 'active' party. Stories where characters are reduced to one dominant feature - Wynne is preachy, Leliana sweet, Alistair naive, Morrigan snarky, Zevran lecherous... and it's not meant as a parody.

They could improve, of course, but as long as their spelling is right, instead of receiving some concrit they are often praised, and have no reason to really learn and grown. Even the people that declare themselves as providing concrit will only focus on commas and typos, or, in best cases, on dialogue tags and adverbs. If these authors tried to create their own story and build up their own characters, maybe they would realise sooner that something's wrong. Or not. But that's my impression, based on thousands of stories I've read on FFN.

That doesn't mean that writing fanfiction is a bad idea, like Martin says. It can help to improve writing skills - on condition the author of the fanfiction already knows the basics. For someone totally new to writing, I'd recommend to start by his own stories and with the help of someone who can really point out his weak spots and help him develop his own style. Or, if they start with the fanfiction, to find the beta who will be willing to do more than just proofreading.

[Corker]

I don't think fanfiction needs to be "good practice" or "good training" to be a fun and engaging hobby.  It is what it is, and if you're having fun doing it, huzzah! 

If you're doing it because you think it will make you a better writer, then you need to be really careful about how you do it.

Martin likens it to "paint by numbers" kits.  I would argue that, if done mindfully, paint by numbers could teach a beginner something about painting.  Brushwork and color theory come to mind - but only if the artist is consciously paying attention to those things. Which implies that they know enough about art to realize that these are things they need to think about.

But yes, if you want to do your own art, you need to get away from paint by numbers eventually.  Unless you just like doing paint by numbers kits.  In which case, rock on.

[Corker]

So, speaking of critiquing one's own writing...

Y'all, I am an adverb addict. I just reread a fill of mine and people are "said adverbly"-ing all over the place. Like, almost every utterance, in places. Sometimes I mix it up with "said, voice described with an adjective." Which... also gets old, fast.

I have something of an aural fixation, I know. Tone of voice is important to me; judging by my writing, more important than, say, physical setting.

I used to use almost no descriptors at all, just line after line of dialogue, thinking that the reader would somehow magically re-create the cadences and tones that I wanted them to hear. Then that started to seem too bald, and the adverbs came out in force.

I've tried to use some descriptions of body language, hoping that would create a 'sense' of character that would carry over to speech. It works... sometimes. Are long similes or metaphors better or worse than a single adverb? (e.g., instead of "languidly," "as languid as a cat, eyes half-closed, sprawled in the afternoon sun")

How do you communicate nuances of tone? Do you save it for special occasions? And for a fanfiction where the reader can be assumed to know the tones most typical of a character, is it necessary to reinforce those? (Yes, of *course* Sten speaks flatly, Fenris grumbles, Isabela is slyly knowing and Morrigan is brusque. It's a red-letter day when they *aren't* those things.)

[Morwen Eledhwen]

@Corker: It's funny, I've been doing some major revisiting of that very aspect of my own writing recently. I had thought to save verbiage by using verbs other than "said" in dialogue, i.e., "he growled" instead of "he said with a growl". But overuse of dialogue tags is just as big a distraction to the reader as overuse of adverbs, or of long descriptive phrases in the middle of sentences. I also struggle to find the balance between making sure the reader "sees" exactly what I see --facial expressions, body language, bits of business-- and allowing the dialogue to flow and trusting that (a) the dialogue is good enough to convey *most* of what I want, at least; and ( not every reader is going to get absolutely everything, and to attempt to color in every pixel of the image in my head will only ruin the picture for everyone.

So for actual advice, I guess I'm not much help, except that I find a balance of all those elements you mentioned above seems to work best --as long as you don't throw the reader out of his or her rhythm so much that that gets distracting, too. Mostly what I'm saying is I feel your pain.

[tklivory]

Heh, interesting to read. In my writing, I am aware of several quirks.

1) I find myself declaring emphases by 3's (phrase 1, phrase 2, phrase 3) where they are intertwined and relate to each other. In other words, if I want a particular passage to stick out to the reader, I will whip out an extended metaphor/action/&c in 3 iterations to ensure that it makes an impact on the reader while they are going through the story. Often I even repeat the same words or just use synonyms of the same concept. It's not something I want to change, necessarily, but it is a characteristic of my writing that I recognize and try to control so it doesn't happen *too* much

2) I have a strong dislike for using the word "said" - like, at all. I will write my way around a sentence and change the pacing of an entire scene to avoid using *said* more than once or twice. I much prefer to use an 'action' verb (as Morwen talks about) or a synonym of said (stated, intoned, declared, etc). Not sure where this came from, but it's practically a phobia for me when I write.


One general observation I will make about writing, as it is something I constantly (try to) guard myself against and flinch when I see it as a Beta (or when I see it in published books... grrr): repetition. Not repetition of thought, but seeing the exact same word used too often when it isn't being used poetically or as part of a 'style' (like, for example, my Once Upon a Time series where I'm trying to emulate a particular 'style' of fairy tale). (this is one reason why I avoid 'said' - too easy to use too much). This is especially true of descriptions, where it can be deceptively simple to plug the same word in time after time. (for some reason, I notice that 'eyes' tends to be a prime target for too-frequent usage - 'eyes' and 'gaze' both, actually)


*sigh* I could really go on and on as I think about this stuff waaaay too much, but obviously I'm hardly an expert on writing either. I could probably spend an entire essay trying to delineate my views on what works and doesn't work for communicating verbal nuance and body language - and not because I'm a master writer, but simply because I *read* so darn much. But, I think I'll stop here.

Modifié par tklivory, 28 novembre 2011 - 07:31 .

[Klidi]

tklivory wrote...

2) I have a strong dislike for using the word "said" - like, at all. I will write my way around a sentence and change the pacing of an entire scene to avoid using *said* more than once or twice. I much prefer to use an 'action' verb (as Morwen talks about) or a synonym of said (stated, intoned, declared, etc). Not sure where this came from, but it's practically a phobia for me when I write.

I know some say that words like 'said' and 'asked' are invisible and the readers don't notice them. Well, I do. I always have to wonder - the character is a man, he just spoke, so it's obvious that 'he said' it. Why does the author think it's necessary to point it out to me? I'm not  that dumb... am I?

If it's used in most of tags, it irritates me so much I eventually stop reading the story completely. So I avoid using it as well. But I was told that to use adverbs or to describe the voice is the greatest sin that the author can do and that it's not possible to talk and smile. Which is strange, because I smile while I'm talking all the time. I like smiling. But I said all right, then I won't use adverbs and action words in tags.

With the result I didn't use anything. And again I was told it's not good because I don't give enough details about what else is going on.

Now I struggle with every dialouge line.  Is it strong enough? Should I use an adverb? Or not? Should I describe what the character is doing? Why should he do something anyway? Why can't they just talk, without grimacing all the time? It's frustrating. <_<

[maxernst]

It seems I have the same problems as everybody else with dialogue. I managed to get away from the "said softly, said sharply, said sweetly" trap, but now all my dialogue has people constantly sighing, snorting, raising their eyebrows, nodding and shaking their heads, rubbing their foreheads, pulling their beards, etc. Plus, the current story had several scenes with eight characters speaking, seven of whom were male, and with so many people talking I had to indicate who was speaking somehow on nearly every line. I didn't want to use their names constantly, so I started to refer to them in other ways, but I'm wondering if my readers will remember that Aristomachus is the Tevinter mage, that the green eyed elf is named Menashe etc.

Also, because my usual writing mode is more or less "stream of consciousness", I tend to have very little description. Unless my protagonists are actively surveying their surroundings, the only things that tend to get described are new places and people. It makes it difficult to give the reader much information about characters and concepts that are familiar to the protagonist because he just doesn't have any reason to reflect on them.

I sometimes think my most successful writing approach is "storyteller mode" in which one person is telling a story to another.  It's easy to mix in some expository writing because the other person is unfamiliar with the people and places being described, and the amount of dialogue is much reduced, because people don't generally recall entire conversations.  

Modifié par maxernst, 28 novembre 2011 - 09:20 .

[Addai]

I don't mind "said," though it does not need to be used where the context is clear who is speaking. I feel like a lot of the time people try to replace it with other words, the result sounds stilted or flowery.  I prefer a more plain-spoken style overall.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 novembre 2011 - 09:28 .

[maxernst]

I think that the anti-adverb advice is mostly a guard against using two words when one would do, on the theory that most instances of "said ---ly" or "walked ----ly" can be replaced by a single verb. I think a well-chosen adverb can make a sentence memorable.

I remember reading a book called "Thinking about Magritte," in which activities of the waitresses in a restaurant are described as a particular dance...I can't recall the description of what they do with their arms but it ended with:

"...the hips swing about to avoid being pinched while the feet stomp skillfully on the cockroaches scuttling across the floor." For me, the word skillfully adds a great deal to that passage, in part because it's not an adverb we typically associate with stomping.

Modifié par maxernst, 28 novembre 2011 - 09:40 .

[Bleachrude]

Even in DA fandom, where is much less crap than eslwhere (I think this is because DA generally attracts more mature people, and they often already have experience in wiriting) you can find such stories. Stories where characters travel to the camp, or where only three characters are in the 'active' party. 

This actually is my main problem with Mass Effect fanfiction...Not sure why but in DA fanfiction, I've seen more "full party" fanfics compared to ME which makes no sense....

[tklivory]

Man, now I'm going back and looking at my FF and finding problems all over the place!  Aaaugh!  The OCD monster awakens!   The sleeper must awaken


Anyhoo...

I know that (unless I am deliberately going to comedy, like my Once Upon a Time series) my writing style tends to be more formal and narrative prose than stream-of-thought type of writing.  I think this may be why I don't like 'said' (i mean, i use it, but not as extensively as i can see it being used in other works).  Of course, I tend to end up with long, convoluted sentences.  (I once set a personal challenge to see how long I could make a non-run-on sentence and ended up with over 100 words.  )  But then, among my favorite authors are Tad Williams and Janny Wurts, both authors who are masters of meandering but cogent descriptive verse.

As for the adverb problem, there are times that that adverbs are absolutely necessary (heh, see what I did there?) and other times when they are thrown in for 'color' without merit or forethought.  Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference...

Also, the comment re: DA vs ME FF, I think it comes down to the banter.  In ME, I never really got a sense that the companions interacted with each other.  I know that there is *some* banter between the characters, but it isn't nearly as complete, clever, or compelling as what you find in DAO banter.  The relationship between Alistair and Morrigan, for example, is established outside of the influence of the Warden.  Zevran enjoys tweaking Wynne's nose and flirting with Leliana regardless of the Warden't input or lack thereof.  I never got that sense of interaction in ME.

[Corker]

Even in DA fandom, where is much less crap than eslwhere (I think this is because DA generally attracts more mature people, and they often already have experience in wiriting) you can find such stories. Stories where characters travel to the camp, or where only three characters are in the 'active' party. 

LOOOL... this is why I gravitated to the Witch Hunt Gang.  Only four protags to wrangle in the party, no justifications needed!  Because I'm awful with scenes that have more than about four major characters in them.

[Corker]

maxernst wrote...
I think that the anti-adverb advice is mostly a guard against using two words when one would do, on the theory that most instances of "said ---ly" or "walked ----ly" can be replaced by a single verb. I think a well-chosen adverb can make a sentence memorable.

I went looking for an article I read once upon a time that addressed this (and the "said" thing, and other stuff).  I didn't find it for a little while, but turned up this essay by a Western writer in the NY Times.  And I thought perhaps it stemmed from a "literature vs. genre fiction" thing.  Especially where the writer says, " I have a character in one of my books tell how she used to write historical romances ''full of rape and adverbs.'"  The adverbs seem associated with (lowbrow, genre, *gasp* women's *gasp*) reading material. I've also seen JK Rowling called out on it, with the connotation being that adverbs tell you how to interpret the character (rather than having the character show you) so it's more suitable for children who need their hands held, not High Minded Adult Readers.

(Conversely, I've heard it said that Hemingway used about as many adverbs per paragraph as Rowling. *And* I just reread his "Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber" because I was sort of ripping it off for smut, and he's got as many piercing blue eyes in it as any amateur writer could want.

Also, I am instantly suspcious of any advice that contains the words "never" or "always."  Even Leonard seems to recgonize this, as he says several times "Don't do this, unless you're Author X.")

OTOH, I did finally find that article, and it was by the Science Fiction Writers Association so, um, maybe it *isn't* a genre vs literature thing?

Aaand for giggles, the UK's Guardian asked a bunch of writers for their own top ten rules lists.  I think it's a mistake to take these things too much to heart, as if they were infallible divine wisdom that must be adhered to on pain of exile from your word processor, but I think they're interesting to read and think about.

Modifié par Corker, 28 novembre 2011 - 10:51 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

re: possible adverb overusage

I thought about this in my own writing recently. But, after checking out some books where an author I like, I realised that in some cases this isn't a big deal. The way I was looking at it, it depends on your dialogue layout. If it's pretty short lines of people firing dialogue at one another with 'adverbly' every sentence then it's really noticable (as bad as 'he yelled' 'she whimpered' 'he exalted' 'she uttered'). But interspersed with other stuff it wasn't as big a deal, by which I mean when I was simply reading it didn't stand out. I still wouldn't recommend using an adverb every single time someone opens their mouth XD, but there are times you can get away with it, like where dialogue is relatively spaced out and the the conversation isn't quickfire.

Body language is definitely a substitute, but as prone to overuse as anything else. Same with idle actions (toy with a dagger; fidget with the laces of a bracer), and mere sounds (a derisive snort; a low chuckle). When a scene calls for a little more verbosity and the pacing is right, I'll bring out the longer metaphors. You can even use the scenery (a serene lake, where the wind and water are still), the characters' current activity (ferocious sparring!) or their appearances (untucked shirt, deliciously mussed hair and lipstick stains) to suggest a general scene tone instead of specific vocal tones.

I think the key is not going overboard on any of these. Some bits of story *want* the longer descriptor or the battle of body language because that's the kind of scene you're writing. But it's not always necessary and we shouldn't think we have to reinforce a character's mode of speech all the time, especially if he's just talking like he usually does or the line's content speaks for itself. Sometimes you should just trust the reader's imagination.

Edit: Oh, and the repetition of 'said' and 'asked' is ok with me. Since it's so common in literature I find it *much* less jarring than exchanging those two words for 50 completely different and frequently out of place substitutes. >.<

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 28 novembre 2011 - 11:51 .

[Klidi]

Corker wrote...

Aaand for giggles, the UK's Guardian asked a bunch of writers for their own top ten rules lists.  I think it's a mistake to take these things too much to heart, as if they were infallible divine wisdom that must be adhered to on pain of exile from your word processor, but I think they're interesting to read and think about.

I always knew Margaret Atwood was awesome, and this only confirmed it. I can fully agree with her rules.

Anyway, if everyone followed those rules, it would soon become very boring - all books would feel the same. I'm just reading Fitzgerald's This Side of Paradise - I randomly opened it now to see how he uses adverbs:

"No," responded Amory succintly. "I'm walking because I can't afford to ride."

"Are you looking for work? Because there's lots of work," he continued rather testily.

"Whatever your line is," said the little man, seeming to agree wisely with something Amory had said,

The little man laughed mirthlessly but conscietously.

"Of course not," said the secretary indignantly.

Both men glanced at him curiously.


That's only ONE page. And I dare anyone to say F. S. Fitzgerald was not a good writer!

Edit: Also, what Gaiman says as his 10th rule - I think I'll print it and hang it above my desk: 

The main rule of writing is that if you do it with enough assurance and
confidence, you're allowed to do whatever you like. (That may be a rule
for life as well as for writing. But it's definitely true for writing.)
So write your story as it needs to be written. Write it ­honestly, and
tell it as best you can. I'm not sure that there are any other rules.
Not ones that matter.

Modifié par Klidi, 29 novembre 2011 - 12:21 .

[Merilsell]

Klidi wrote...
I'm just reading Fitzgerald's This Side of Paradise - I randomly opened it now to see how he uses adverbs:

"No," responded Amory succintly. "I'm walking because I can't afford to ride."

"Are you looking for work? Because there's lots of work," he continued rather testily.

"Whatever your line is," said the little man, seeming to agree wisely with something Amory had said,

The little man laughed mirthlessly but conscietously.

"Of course not," said the secretary indignantly.

Both men glanced at him curiously.

.... My eyes...oh the adverbs. It buuuuuurns.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I think I'd go mad reading This Side of Paradise XD

But not all writer styles are for for everyone. I tend to agree with that Neil Gaiman quote. Possibly, once you know what the 'rules' for writing are, you should be able to figure out how to break them in a way that makes it work for you and your audience.

[tklivory]

Come on, adverbs are overwhelmingly really important to writing. You know that it is crucially important to carefully write adverbs into practically everything, otherwise people would like totally be cluelessly unable to successfully follow any of the radically awesome plot.

And, you know, how realistically could people even casually accept that writing can be done competently without marvelously crafted adverbs, potentially more than one for each beautifully, wonderfully utilized verb?

*runs guiltily and hides silently*

Modifié par tklivory, 29 novembre 2011 - 03:16 .

[Klidi]

Lol. But This Side of Paradie IS great book and Fitzgerald IS a good writer. Even though people in the book whisper, breath and shout instead of saying. ^^
But really - Fitzgerald is one of the best authors of the 20th century (for me, at least) and this book is a proof that despite what we are repeatedly told about adverbs and way to write (often by far less known, popular and appreciated authors) does not always have to be true. It only depends on the skills of the author.

[tklivory]

Skills, yes, but inspiration is also a huge factor.  I would never argue that the Lord of the Rings, for example, is one of the best examples of writing ever to grace the shelves of a bookstore.  It is overwritten, contains far too many inconsistencies, refers to many elements vital to the story that aren't even explained within its pages, and frankly is extremely difficult to read, particularly for a casual reader.

Yet it is one of the best selling books of all time, has inspired more in its wake (including this game) than most books can claim, has legions of followers, and, when it grips you, grips you tight by the goolies and won't let go.

Hell, The Silmarillion is my favorite book.  Ever.  And that makes Lord of the Rings look like Beverly Cleary.  My second favorite is Shogun by James Clavell.  And I read both of those books in the first grade.  (ummmm.... i grew up without a TV... there's a reason I'm this strange...)

Anyway, my point is this: skill is essential to a good writer, and you can produce book after book with solid writing skills and little else.  TBH, most published authors fall into this category.  Inspiration, however, is what makes people talk about your work long after it has initially hit the book shelves.

I view writing FanFiction as a way to not only hone certain technical skills, but to unfurl the inspiration that pulls you forward.  Why write something that, 99.9% of the time, is guaranteed to not get you paid, will only be read by a limited group of people, and may even be lambasted and ridiculed by those same people?

Passion, that's what.  And passion is one of the strongest components of inspiration, which is an essential part of turning good writing into great writing.

That's why I think writing FanFiction is such a wonderful thing.  Like every other human endeavor, 95% of it is passion with little skill or underlying inspiration, but in that 5% where the 3 are combined...

That is why we are here.  To strive for the 5%, stretch our wings, and soar...

(And I certainly am in that 95%, that's fo sho)

EDIT: Tho, I must admit, pretty much everyone on the BSN is in the 90th percentile or higher, based on some of the...interesting examples of FF I've found out in the wild...

/nah, I don't hyperbolize much, why do you ask?

Modifié par tklivory, 29 novembre 2011 - 07:32 .

[Merilsell]

tklivory wrote...
Passion, that's what.  And passion is one of the strongest components of inspiration, which is an essential part of turning good writing into great writing.

I'm far from calling the drivel I produce great, but somehow I must be doing something right anyhow. I never would have expected my (behemoth of a) story to be so frequently read. Never.

And I'm sure I'm not alone with it when I say: I write because I love to write. Or more accurately I have learned that writing is what I love to do, even if I'm not paid or reach a huge public with it. For me this is enough, I don't have the ambition to become a professional writer, I just love to write my character's story...to see what is beyond the game, beyond the limitations of it. This is what brought me into writing in the first place: Fix and expand things I didn't like and wanted to do better, whatever that means. I'd have never imagined that I'm still here almost two years later after starting this tale and still writing it...or better still loving it to write. Writing has become such an important part and hobby in my life that I simply don't want to miss it anymore. It is something where I see when I get gradually better, in writing you never stop to improve.  And this is something I find damn rewarding on this whole hobby, not only that I'm seeing when and where I have improved, no, I also can give/create something that perhaps beside of me also a small bunch of people enjoys. I love that.

Therefore I have the standard for myself to make it as enjoyable as possible for myself and for the people reading my 400k thing. Which means I want to improve to be able to write my story in the best way possible. Even if it is only FF.

[Addai]

Corker wrote...
Aaand for giggles, the UK's Guardian asked a bunch of writers for their own top ten rules lists.  I think it's a mistake to take these things too much to heart, as if they were infallible divine wisdom that must be adhered to on pain of exile from your word processor, but I think they're interesting to read and think about.

Interesting.  I identify with a couple on Helen Dunmore's list, especially:

Finish the day's writing when you still want to continue.

Listen to what you have written. A dud rhythm in a passage of dialogue may show that you don't yet understand the characters well enough to write in their voices.

Reread, rewrite, reread, rewrite. If it still doesn't work, throw it away. It's a nice feeling, and you don't want to be cluttered with the corpses of poems and stories which have everything in them except the life they need.

Except I have learned never to throw anything away completely.  It goes into a scrap file.  Though tbh, my scrap file has mostly embarrassed me rather than providing anything useful.

I also like what a couple people said about the reader being a friend and not an adversary, and there not being a right way.  It's sort of like marriage.  Not every fish in the sea is going to be right for you, not every author is meant to be loved by everybody.  When I find authors that I "get" and who seem to be writing just for me, it's almost as euphoric as falling in love.    A couple authors I have found like that are even prolific, which is a plus!

Modifié par Addai67, 29 novembre 2011 - 04:51 .