214 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightvision91]

I thought she was a good character. I understand why others would hate her, and I respect opinions. I personally hated Jake myself, but to each their own.

[Twitchmonkey]

mac35 wrote...

It's clear which people in this thread talked to Miranda more than once or twice and which didn't...Which is fine, but just don't think you can make grand proclamations about the character's personality or lack thereof without making yourself look foolish to those who DID actually talk to her.

I talked to her after every mission and still don't like her. Is that allowed?

[vince0488]

MerchantGOL wrote...

vince0488 wrote...

Miranda was a great character and I sure hope she keeps an important role in ME3. There, I said it.

Cool Story bro

i hope all the ME3 squadmates return as squadmates

even the Queen ****

it's nice to see someone with an open mind in this forum. what's with all the hate threads anyway?! every characters are interesting in their own right. sure some of em bug me a hell of a lot more than others but you don't see me starting a thread about it. the fact that you hate her actually means you care. just thank bioware for making such great characters to interact with and to develop feelings for (love/hate/etc)

[Sathwater]

banshee768 wrote...

She's a vast improvement over Ash.

QFT. I started a new game in ME1 just to kill her after I saw the new options in ME2

[BattleVisor]

She is overrated

[Schneidend]

Twitchmonkey wrote...


Seemed to be completely in line with his character to me, but eh.

I feel there's a definite difference in "I want humanity to be strong" and "the only way humanity gets stronger is if Cerberus gets stronger." Throughout the game, he comes off, to me, as the former, and then reveals himself as the latter when he sees an opportunity to acquire ultimate power. Both are in line with his character, in hindsight, and I'm not saying it was weak writing by any means, but he is portrayed as far less sinister up until that point, and purposefully so. I was fine to leave Cerberus in his hands up until then, but when he showed he'd forgotten the "human" part of "humanity's best interests," it became my show.

Twitchmonkey wrote...

When does she say this? I reprimanded her because she was essentially sweeping the incident under the rug claiming that it wasn't Cerberus' doing, then I go to her office, ask her if we'r good and she gives me that arrogant "not remotely." After that, I used the paragon option on her which forced me to act like I was just patronizing Jack because she was crazy, which then lead her to compliment me on keeping my mind on the mission.

Never had the exchange that you're referring to, nor did she ever imply any empathy for her situation whatsoever. Perhaps she's just a totally different person if you're romancing her, but I can only comment on how she was with my Shepard.

She says it "wasn't Cerberus, not really." They went rogue, and she won't apologize for people who betrayed Cerberus' ideals. That she is not apologetic does not make her inhuman. She acknowledges it was a mistake, but given that it was not her own doing, and that the Zero Cell wasn't following orders, she rightly feels that she
owes Jack nothing. The only thing that is clear is Jack's misguided transference of anger to anything with the Cerberus logo on it.

Moreover, I didn't romance Miranda, either. I like all the squadmates, and have no bias for Miranda or against Jack. But, I did talk to Miranda, and I guess I interpreted what she was saying differently than you did.

EDIT

Modifié par Schneidend, 06 février 2010 - 08:53 .

[MerchantGOL]

Schneidend wrote...

Twitchmonkey wrote...


Seemed to be completely in line with his character to me, but eh.

I feel there's a definite difference in "I want humanity to be strong" and "the only way humanity gets stronger is if Cerberus gets stronger." Throughout the game, he comes off, to me, as the former, and then reveals himself as the latter when he sees an opportunity to acquire ultimate power. Both are in line with his character, in hindsight, and I'm not saying it was weak writing by any means, but he is portrayed as far less sinister up until that point, and purposefully so. I was fine to leave Cerberus in his hands up until then, but when he showed he'd forgotten the "human" part of "humanity's best interests," it became my show.

Twitchmonkey wrote...

When does she say this? I reprimanded her because she was essentially sweeping the incident under the rug claiming that it wasn't Cerberus' doing, then I go to her office, ask her if we'r good and she gives me that arrogant "not remotely." After that, I used the paragon option on her which forced me to act like I was just patronizing Jack because she was crazy, which then lead her to compliment me on keeping my mind on the mission.

Never had the exchange that you're referring to, nor did she ever imply any empathy for her situation whatsoever. Perhaps she's just a totally different person if you're romancing her, but I can only comment on how she was with my Shepard.

She says it "wasn't Cerberus, not really." They went rogue, and she won't apologize for people who betrayed Cerberus' ideals. That she is not apologetic does not make her inhuman. She acknowledges it was a mistake, but given that it was not her own doing, and that the Zero Cell wasn't following orders, she rightly feels that she
owes Jack nothing. The only thing that is clear is Jack's misguided transference of anger to anything with the Cerberus logo on it.

Moreover, I didn't romance Miranda, either. I like all the squadmates, and have no bias for Miranda or against Jack. But, I did talk to Miranda, and I guess I interpreted what she was saying differently than you did.

EDIT

she ****ign pouts if you take jacks side, that is just more of her refusal to admit cerberus's wrong doings

[MerchantGOL]

She even makes excuses for TIM when he betrays you on the Collector ship

[Twitchmonkey]

Schneidend wrote...

I feel there's a definite difference in "I want humanity to be strong" and "the only way humanity gets stronger is if Cerberus gets stronger." Throughout the game, he comes off, to me, as the former, and then reveals himself as the latter when he sees an opportunity to acquire ultimate power. Both are in line with his character, in hindsight, and I'm not saying it was weak writing by any means, but he is portrayed as far less sinister up until that point, and purposefully so. I was fine to leave Cerberus in his hands up until then, but when he showed he'd forgotten the "human" part of "humanity's best interests," it became my show.

I always got the impression that he felt Cerberus was the only thing saving humanity from being destroyed or marginalized and he would do anything to stop that. Even if he didn't seem that way to you up until that point, Miranda should have had a better grasp on his nature.

She says it "wasn't Cerberus, not really." They went rogue, and she won't apologize for people who betrayed Cerberus' ideals. That she is not apologetic does not make her inhuman. She acknowledges it was a mistake, but given that it was not her own doing, and that the Zero Cell wasn't following orders, she rightly feels that she
owes Jack nothing. The only thing that is clear is Jack's misguided transference of anger to anything with the Cerberus logo on it.

Moreover, I didn't romance Miranda, either. I like all the squadmates, and have no bias for Miranda or against Jack. But, I did talk to Miranda, and I guess I interpreted what she was saying differently than you did.

EDIT

That's the worst thing about her. She is able to completely disregard all of the terrible things Cerberus has done simply by acting like any actions they do that don't represent her ideals don't represent the real Cerberus, thus removing all guilt. Even then, all we know is that eventually TIM cut their funding, I really doubt he was oblivious to everything that was going on. He's too smart to not keep tabs on important projects like that. However, this doesn't result in any second guessing of Cerberus or TIM, just chastising Jack who has every right to be angry at Cerberus even if TIM really had no idea what was going on.

[MerchantGOL]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

I feel there's a definite difference in "I want humanity to be strong" and "the only way humanity gets stronger is if Cerberus gets stronger." Throughout the game, he comes off, to me, as the former, and then reveals himself as the latter when he sees an opportunity to acquire ultimate power. Both are in line with his character, in hindsight, and I'm not saying it was weak writing by any means, but he is portrayed as far less sinister up until that point, and purposefully so. I was fine to leave Cerberus in his hands up until then, but when he showed he'd forgotten the "human" part of "humanity's best interests," it became my show.

I always got the impression that he felt Cerberus was the only thing saving humanity from being destroyed or marginalized and he would do anything to stop that. Even if he didn't seem that way to you up until that point, Miranda should have had a better grasp on his nature.

She says it "wasn't Cerberus, not really." They went rogue, and she won't apologize for people who betrayed Cerberus' ideals. That she is not apologetic does not make her inhuman. She acknowledges it was a mistake, but given that it was not her own doing, and that the Zero Cell wasn't following orders, she rightly feels that she
owes Jack nothing. The only thing that is clear is Jack's misguided transference of anger to anything with the Cerberus logo on it.

Moreover, I didn't romance Miranda, either. I like all the squadmates, and have no bias for Miranda or against Jack. But, I did talk to Miranda, and I guess I interpreted what she was saying differently than you did.

EDIT

That's the worst thing about her. She is able to completely disregard all of the terrible things Cerberus has done simply by acting like any actions they do that don't represent her ideals don't represent the real Cerberus, thus removing all guilt. Even then, all we know is that eventually TIM cut their funding, I really doubt he was oblivious to everything that was going on. He's too smart to not keep tabs on important projects like that. However, this doesn't result in any second guessing of Cerberus or TIM, just chastising Jack who has every right to be angry at Cerberus even if TIM really had no idea what was going on.

Exactly Thank you

[Sleepy Buddha]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

considering what happend to her and why she stole her sister from her father, Miranda would be more sympathetic to a girl who had her life stolen away as well

Jack was calling Cerberus into question, Miranda believes that Cerberus can do no wrong, and her zealotry always comes first, so that overrides all logic and reason.

You're both wrong, IMO. Cerberus' structure is made up of independent cells, anonimous to each other. One hand does not know what the other does. Only TIM, the head, would. But as we see in the beginning with Wilson, even he can't see all. The problem is we don't know what is it that he knows. Considering the endgame, it's probable he knows almost everything.

You both see Cerberus as a single entity. Miranda doesn't. She sees Cerberus as an ideal, and those who do not comply with that ideal, as far as she's concerned are not part of Cerberus. Her only flaw is her implicit trust in TIM. But TIM, being the cunning bastard he is, again considering the endgame and Miranda's reaction, would keep her away from Cerberus most twisted dealings if he wanted to keep her loyalty.

If you side with Miranda in that fight, she then apologises to Shepard for the whole mess. The problem she has with Jack isn't that Jack accuses Cerberus of doing what they did to her. It's that Jack also considers her responsible for it when she didn't even have any knowledge of the whole thing. And Jack is allways outright hostile with Miranda, never even providing a chance for some sort of meaningfull excange.

And you're both seeing things from our point of view. We, the player, know a lot of things the characters don't. It's obvious that Miranda would trust the organization that protected her and her sister their whole lives more than Jack, whom she had only just met.

In the logs at the compound, there was a certain ambiguity since some of the people responsible for the project state that even Tim was unaware of certain aspects of the project. The fact remains, we know TIM is a bastard, but we don't know how much he actually had to do with the whole thing. Maybe he knew, maybe he didn't. But we do know Miranda had nothing to do with it.

As for being simpathetic, she is definitely more simpathetic and a lot more civil towards Jack than the other way around.

And look at Jack. Even after she learns what really happened at the facility, that she was actually the most fortunate of all those that were taken there, she shows no signs of empathy towards all those who had a worse fate than her.

In the end, I love Miranda and I like Jack. They are both characters that, despite their flaws, I can fully understand their motivations and where they're coming from.

I also love Miranda's demeanor, that calm and controled attitude, expressing emotions in subtle tones. I don't like personalities that are overly emotional, but I guess that's just a matter of taste.

Modifié par Sleepy Buddha, 06 février 2010 - 09:20 .

[ToshiStation38]

RAMBO 46 wrote...

F*CK miranda

I would.

[MerchantGOL]

Sleepy Buddha wrote...

Twitchmonkey wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

considering what happend to her and why she stole her sister from her father, Miranda would be more sympathetic to a girl who had her life stolen away as well

Jack was calling Cerberus into question, Miranda believes that Cerberus can do no wrong, and her zealotry always comes first, so that overrides all logic and reason.

You're both wrong, IMO. Cerberus' structure is made up of independent cells, anonimous to each other. One hand does not know what the other does. Only TIM, the head, would. But as we see in the beginning with Wilson, even he can't see all. The problem is we don't know what is it that he knows. Considering the endgame, it's probable he knows almost everything.

You both see Cerberus as a single entity. Miranda doesn't. She sees Cerberus as an ideal, and those who do not comply with that ideal, as far as she's concerned are not part of Cerberus. Her only flaw is her implicit trust in TIM. But TIM, being the cunning bastard he is, again considering the endgame and Miranda's reaction, would keep her away from Cerberus most twisted dealings if he wanted to keep her loyalty.

If you side with Miranda in that fight, she then apologises to Shepard for the whole mess. The problem she has with Jack isn't that Jack accuses Cerberus of doing what they did to her. It's that Jack also considers her responsible for it when she didn't even had any knowledge of the whole thing. And Jack is allways outright hostile with Miranda, never even providing a chance for some sort of meaningfull excange.

And you're both seeing things from our point of view. We, the player, know a lot of things the characters don't. It's obvious that Miranda would trust the organization that protected her and her sister their whole lives more than Jack, whom she had only just met.

In the logs at the compound, there was a certain ambiguity since some of the people responsible for the project state that even Tim was unaware of certain aspects of the project. The fact remains, we know TIM is a bastard, but we don't know how much he actually had to do with the whole thing. Maybe he knew, maybe he didn't. But we do know Miranda had nothing to do with it.

As for being simpathetic, she is definitely more simpathetic and a lot more civil towards Jack than the other way around.

And look at Jack. Even after she learns what really happened at the facility, that she was actually the most fortunate of all those that were taken there, she shows no signs of empathy towards all those who had a worse fate than her.

In the end, I love Miranda and I like Jack. They are both characters that, despite their flaws, I can fully understand their motivations and where they're coming from.

I also love Miranda's demeanor, that calm and controled attitude, expressing emotions in subtle tones. I don't like personalities that are overly emotional, but I guess that's just a matter of taste.

Why exactly should jack be sympathetic, it snot like miranda is nice twrods her ether

the problom with your points is that not once dose miranda pause and second guess Cerberus

[Colinissile]

None even compared the depth and emotional feeling with Ashley! Maybe Tali, but that was highly nostalgic.

[MerchantGOL]

Colinissile wrote...

None even compared the depth and emotional feeling with Ashley! Maybe Tali, but that was highly nostalgic.

Lol your kidding right?

[Schneidend]

MerchantGOL wrote...

She even makes excuses for TIM when he betrays you on the Collector ship

Well, even though it did ****** me off, I found Illusive Man's
explanation to be pretty satisfactory. He sprung the trap intentionally
to allow Shepard to further the mission. Granted, he should have told
Shepard. That much is true.

Twitchmonkey wrote...

That's the worst thing about her. She is able to completely disregard all of the terrible things Cerberus has done simply by acting like any actions they do that don't represent her ideals don't represent the real Cerberus, thus removing all guilt. Even then, all we know is that eventually TIM cut their funding, I really doubt he was oblivious to everything that was going on. He's too smart to not keep tabs on important projects like that. However, this doesn't result in any second guessing of Cerberus or TIM, just chastising Jack who has every right to be angry at Cerberus even if TIM really had no idea what was going on.

Well, she owned up to the rachni, and the husks, and the creepers readily enough. Obviously, attempting to use technology you don't fully understand is bad, and she admitted as much. What she won't accept responsibility for is a cell that plain and simple went mad with power and autonomy as being a proper part of Cerberus, and I don't blame her. When a military unit goes too far and kills innocents, you punish that unit. You don't point at the military and say "you are all monsters!"

Moreover, TIM didn't just cut their funding, he "forcibly retired" (read: probably killed) the surviving doctors and had the surviving children sent off to Alliance medical facilities. He wasn't oblivious, but it's obvious from the logs in the facility itself that Illusive Man didn't know about the deals with batarian slavers and the murder of innocent children.

Also, I didn't chastise anybody. I went with the Renegade persuasion and told them both to cut the crap. What happened to Jack was terrible, but Miranda had nothing at all to do with it, and threatening to kill her is just Jack misplacing her anger. Why was Jack even in Miranda's office if not to pick a fight? They live a deck apart, and I told them to keep it that way.

[Melra]

Threads like this should be destroyed! Miranda is a goddess!

[Twitchmonkey]

Sleepy Buddha wrote...

You're both wrong. Cerberus' structure is made up of independent cells, anonimous to each other. One hand does not know what the other does. Only TIM, the head, would. But as we see in the beginning with Wilson, even he can't see all. The problem is we don't know what is it that he knows. Considering the endgame, it's probable he knows almost everything.

If he fails to keep tabs on his projects, then that is his failing, not something he should absolved of guilt for, and as you said, he likely knows just about everything.

You both see Cerberus as a single entity. Miranda doesn't. She sees
Cerberus as an ideal, and those who do not comply with that ideal, as
far as she's concerned are not part of Cerberus. Her only flaw is her
implicit trust in TIM. But TIM, being the cunning bastard he is, again considering the endgame and Miranda's reaction, would keep her away from Cerberus most twisted dealings if he wanted to keep her loyalty.

That's just not something I would accept. If I saw groups committing such atrocities under the banner of my organization, I would at least show hesitation or remorse, not simple disregard. Combine that with the fact that TIM is still the leader and has ultimate say and allows these things to happen, would make me leave that organization. Miranda has neither hesitation nor the desire to leave and find a better way.

If you side with Miranda in that fight, she then apologises to Shepard for the whole mess. The problem she has with Jack isn't that Jack accuses Cerberus of doing what they did to her. It's that Jack also considers her responsible for it when she didn't even had any knowledge of the whole thing. And Jack is allways outright hostile with Miranda, never even providing a chance for some sort of meaningfull excange.

And you're both seeing things from our point of view. We, the player, know a lot of things the characters don't. It's obvious that Miranda would trust the organization that protected her and her sister their whole lives more than Jack, whom she had only just met.

That's fine until things are known. We know that Cerberus created this facility that committed atrocities and I just can't believe someone as bright as Miranda didn't understand that TIM allowed for some of this to occur. Maybe it got to be too much or he wasn't getting the results he was looking for so he cut it off, but if it's obvious to me that TIM knew some of what was happening, it should be moreso to her, who has spent so much time with him and is said to be so intelligent.

As for being simpathetic, she is definitely more simpathetic and a lot more civil towards Jack than the other way around.

And look at Jack. Even after she learns what really happened at the facility, that she was actually the most fortunate of all those that were taken there, she shows no signs of empathy towards all those who had a worse fate than her.

Yeah, but Jack's a total ****, so that's not saying much, and the point can definitely be made that she has cause to be more of a **** to Miranda than Miranda does to her.

In the end, I love Miranda and I like Jack. They are both characters that, despite their flaws, I can fully understand their motivations and where they're coming from.

I also love Miranda's demeanor, that calm and controled attitude, expressing emotions in subtle tones. I don't like personalities that are overly emotional, but I guess that's just a matter of taste.

I understand it in a way, and I don't wish her character did not exist, I just don't happen to like her.

Well, she owned up to the rachni, and the husks, and the creepers
readily enough. Obviously, attempting to use technology you don't fully
understand is bad, and she admitted as much. What she won't accept
responsibility for is a cell that plain and simple went mad with power
and autonomy as being a proper part of Cerberus, and I don't blame her.
When a military unit goes too far and kills innocents, you punish that
unit. You don't point at the military and say "you are all monsters!"

Did she live up to those things? I recall Jacob doing so, but I can't recall her taking that position. Even if she did, an "oops, that was probably a bad call" really isn't an appropriate response to that situation.

If a general allows for horrible things to be done to innocents and doesn't keep proper supervision over even more horrible things to be done to them, then he deserves to be forcibly retired.

Moreover,
TIM didn't just cut their funding, he "forcibly retired"
(read: probably killed) the surviving doctors and had the surviving
children sent off to Alliance medical facilities. He wasn't oblivious,
but it's obvious from the logs in the facility itself that Illusive Man
didn't know about the deals with batarian slavers and the murder of
innocent children.

Oh come now, the apologetics are getting to be a little much. Do you really think that he intended the facility to be a biotic daycare and had no idea that children were being cruelly experimented on? He would have had to never step foot in there, never receive a report from an official, never take a look at the faciliy's transactions, be basically utterly oblivious. That's not how TIM rolls, he keeps track of his atrocities.

Also, I didn't chastise anybody. I went with
the Renegade persuasion and told them both to cut the crap. What
happened to Jack was terrible, but Miranda had nothing at all to do
with it, and threatening to kill her is just Jack misplacing her anger.
Why was Jack even in Miranda's office if not to pick a fight? They live
a deck apart, and I told them to keep it that way.

Miranda deserved to be chastised. "You're both wrong and need to go to your rooms" is not he appropriate response to brushing Jack's torment under the rug by her organization.

Modifié par Twitchmonkey, 06 février 2010 - 09:31 .

[TyDurden13]

Well personally I like hot, super capable women. Just a thing of mine.



Her abilities and team buffs make her the most useful squadmate in a fight, she's got Yvonne Strahovski's awesome voice and at the end she tell TIM to stick it. Miranda = win.

[vince0488]

this thread should be destroyed...

[Twitchmonkey]

vince0488 wrote...

this thread should be destroyed...

Can we just destroy the "I love Miranda" thread instead?

[ToshiStation38]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

vince0488 wrote...

this thread should be destroyed...

Can we just destroy the "I love Miranda" thread instead?

I'd say destroy both and keep the love threads confined to groups.

[Himmelstor]

vince0488 wrote...

this thread should be destroyed...

All hate threads counter-productive. Very nature ends in flame war.

[Sleepy Buddha]

MerchantGOL wrote...

Why exactly should jack be sympathetic, it snot like miranda is nice twrods her ether

the problom with your points is that not once dose miranda pause and second guess Cerberus

Maybe because Miranda was not one of the people who ruined her life? It seems fairly obvious to me. Jack even checked the project files and knew exactly who was responsible. And Miranda was allways civil towards her.

I can see the problem is you cannot put yourself in Miranda's place. Again, why would she second guess TIM, who protected her and her sister their whole lives? And as I said, if TIM is as cunning as we believe, he would make sure nothing would happen while she was with Cerberus that would cause her to doubt him.

That's why it was risky putting her under Shepard's command. She would see things that would begin eating away at her loyalty. But of course, none of it could be traced directly to TIM as his personal orders and actions. Until the endgame, where for the first time she saw it first hand and promptly broke her ties with him and joined Shepard.




EDIT:fixed the quote brackets

Modifié par Sleepy Buddha, 06 février 2010 - 09:39 .