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Nudity Criticisms--BioWare Condescends. This Means You, Mr. Woo


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#1
Aquilas

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http://www.cinemable...Boob-22724.html
 
Mr. Woo, I don't like being treated as if I'm stupid.  Does BioWare have the right to choose not to include nudity or partial nudity in a game?  Of course it does.  But it shouldn’t lash out at fans who remark on an obvious inconsistency from ME1 to ME2.  I won’t take the bait in responding to insults regarding my maturity or lack thereof.  Because in my judgment, BioWare’s choice represents compromising its philosophy, perhaps even a core principle, BioWare defended in ME1.
 
Putting personal attacks on fan maturity aside, it is very reasonable to conclude BioWare chose not to include any partial nudity in ME2 because it’s reacting to criticism by the "morality police.”  Why would BioWare do that?  To increase its customer base, hence profitability.  For BioWare to claim such omissions are purely an artistic choice is disingenuous at best.
 
How can we conclude this?  Because BioWare included partial nudity in ME1—and affirmed its right to do so, vociferously and forcefully, when challenged by the "morality police.”  BioWare maintained it needed to be faithful in depicting adult, intimate relationships without being prurient, but honest.  People do get naked, or at least partially naked, to have sex.  During that time BioWare told Fox News--and other critics--that it was the critics who needed to be mature and adult about tasteful, intimate elements in ME1.  And now BioWare labels as immature fans who criticize BioWare's choice in ME2: a choice to omit content included in ME1.  Are some of these ME2 fan criticisms juvenile?  You betcha.  But many are thoughtful and mature.
 
Concomitantly, BioWare has claimed that omitting nudity or partial nudity in Dragon Age: Origins was an "aesthetic choice."  Seriously?  That "aesthetic" choice resulted in Morrigan showing less breast in love scenes than she did in her standard outfit.  So her lovemaking attire was more modest than her walking-around clothes—she had to dress up to have sex.  Aesthetic choice?  Please.
 
Much has been written about changes to the combat and inventory gameplay elements in ME2 to make it more of a shooter, so I’m not going to address those here.  But I give BioWare credit for being more open—if more than a bit subtle, too—in admitting those changes were not only in response to fan suggestions but also to increase ME2’s marketability.  We know this because BioWare has said several times, in several interviews, it’s trying to broaden Mass Effect 2’s appeal, to attract a player who may not have considered it before.  That means marketability and profitability.  One writer in these forums has called ME2 “Gears of War with Interactive Dialogue.”  I think that’s an overstatement, but it captures many fans’ feelings.  I think BioWare has been more honest in discussing shooter changes than those involving intimate content.
 
I think ME2 is a worthy successor to ME1.  I enjoy the story, the character development, and yes, the combat system.  Unlike some writers, I think the story arc flows well from ME1 to ME2, and some plot developments pleasantly surprised me.

 What I don’t like is BioWare condescending to fans who raise legitimate concerns about changes in intimate content from ME1 to ME2—concerns based on obvious incongruities in BioWare’s own stated philosophy and goals in game development.  I’d have much more respect if BioWare just flatly stated it abandoned nudity or partial nudity in ME2 because it wanted to enhance ME2’s profitably: it wanted to meet standards and goals Bobby Kotick has stated plainly—and honestly—many times.  That would show respect for BioWare’s fans—not disdain.

Modifié par Aquilas, 06 février 2010 - 04:49 .


#2
EvilPikachu

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They'd just be better off saying "Look, Yvonne Strahovski stipulated 'no nudity' in her contract to use her likeness."

#3
jpetrey123

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i dont think you realize just how many of those threads there has been. if you people want nudity look at porn or watch HBO. i mean seriously they are pixels!!!

#4
Evil Johnny 666

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Seriously people you gotta stop with that. Do you seriously believe the inclusion of partial nudity would have changed the sales a bit? Hell, maybe some nerdy desperate guys would have bought only for that. I think Bioware wants their game to be more... "serious", not that its inclusion would make the game any less serious, but maybe they didn't want their game to make some people to play their games expecting to get a fix of fictional sex. I mean, is it really an issue that some very small part of the game does not contain partial nudity? It's a ****ing game...

#5
SethSteiner

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It`s not about porn. My goddess in Terminator the sex scene was essential for the whole universe but would anyone call Terminator porn? No one would, so why this "watch porn if you want ******!" pops up everytime?

#6
Skemte

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Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Seriously people you gotta stop with that. Do you seriously believe the inclusion of partial nudity would have changed the sales a bit? Hell, maybe some nerdy desperate guys would have bought only for that. I think Bioware wants their game to be more... "serious", not that its inclusion would make the game any less serious, but maybe they didn't want their game to make some people to play their games expecting to get a fix of fictional sex. I mean, is it really an issue that some very small part of the game does not contain partial nudity? It's a ****ing game...


  I think it has more to do with the double standard within the game, that apparently killing people, watching them get sucked into a tube being shreded into bloody chunks is alright..  But by no means can we see anything come close to what we saw in ME1 which was nothing to begin with, that is all..   If anything by that logic Bioware are being the immature ones, and not neccesarly the fans on questioning them that all they want to see was nudity.. Which the first didn't even have to begin with..

#7
AdrynBliss

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jeez did you guys even pay attention to the OP?
This isn't about the actual nudity in and of itself. re-read the first paragraph.

'BioWare’s choice represents compromising its philosophy, perhaps even a core principle, BioWare defended in ME1.'


I competely agree with this and I was greatly disappointed to see bioware compromise it's own principles. Video games will gain no ground or respect as an artistic medum as long as companies bow to the opposition.

Modifié par AdrynBliss, 06 février 2010 - 04:54 .


#8
Evil Johnny 666

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SethSteiner wrote...

It`s not about porn. My goddess in Terminator the sex scene was essential for the whole universe but would anyone call Terminator porn? No one would, so why this "watch porn if you want ******!" pops up everytime?


The difference, is that your example HAD a sex scene while ME2 doesn't have partial nudity. It's not people complaining because there IS, but because there ISN'T and that's the problem. Whatching a movie with sex scene is ok, can be fun, but whining because a game lacks clearly show these people want ******. Why would they want that otherwise? Because sex scenes is an integral part of a good story? Give me a break!

#9
Evil Johnny 666

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AdrynBliss wrote...

jeez did you guys even pay attention to the OP?
This isn't about the actual nudity in and of itself. re-read the first paragraph.

'BioWare’s choice represents compromising its philosophy, perhaps even a core principle, BioWare defended in ME1.'


I competely agree with this and I was greatly disappointed to see bioware compromise it's own principles. Video games will gain no ground or respect as an artist medum as long as companies bow to the opposition.


That doesn't make any sense. No sex scene doesn't undo their philosophy whatsoever. What? Every violent game with gore and all gotta show ****** because otherwise it's a double edged sword? If you want sex scenes in ME, go play the first. Geez, and it's like barely a minute...

#10
pacer90

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I'm shocked people care so much about this.

#11
Schneidend

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The Talimance had an amazingly satisfying conlusion that did not involve quarians gone wild. Would I be perfectly fine with seeing some Miranda or Tali side-boob, bare ass shots, or even full on nudity? Hell yes I would. Does the game even remotely need it? Not at all.

Modifié par Schneidend, 06 février 2010 - 04:55 .


#12
Aquilas

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SethSteiner wrote...

It`s not about porn. My goddess in Terminator the sex scene was essential for the whole universe but would anyone call Terminator porn? No one would, so why this "watch porn if you want ******!" pops up everytime?


This.  I'm commenting on BioWare's response to fan criticisms--not whether or not there's pixilated "porn" in ME2.

#13
Evil Johnny 666

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pacer90 wrote...

I'm shocked people care so much about this.


this

Schneidend wrote...

The Talimance had an amazingly satisfying conlusion that did not involve quarians gone wild. Would I be perfectly fine with seeing some Miranda or Tali side-boob, bare ass shots, or even full on nudity? Hell yes I would. Does the game even remotely need it? Not at all.


and this

#14
pacer90

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Schneidend wrote...

The Talimance had an amazingly satisfying conlusion that did not involve quarians gone wild. Would I be perfectly fine with seeing some Miranda or Tali side-boob, bare ass shots, or even full on nudity? Hell yes I would. Does the game even remotely need it? Not at all.


Tali had me laughing my head off. Miranda got her point across and the engine room was awesome. Subject zero was sad times, and done well.

9.1/10 overall imo.

#15
The Demonologist

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I thought the Sex and Nudity thread had some nice, mature individuals talking about this in a sensible manner, but this absolutely inappropriate and absurd, especially to try to take it beyond the thread and bring it to bear against Mr. Woo.



In fact, I'll quote the article. "People will complain about damn near anything on the Internet."



I won't apply this to the Sex and Nudity discussion. I'll apply it to -this.-



Just... I'm baffled.

#16
Tleining

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@ Evil Johnny

do yourself a favor and read the OP, really read and think about it.

Bioware defended the Romance Scenes of ME1: "BioWare maintained it needed to be faithful in depicting adult, intimate relationships without being prurient, but honest. People do get naked, or at least partially naked, to have sex." (OP)

And now in ME2 they don't have that. And the fans who expected Bioware to stand by their previous statements are let down, and suddenly they (the fans) are immature for expecting that.





Again: Bioware has every right to make the game how they want to do it. I like ME2 like it is, but i still wonder why they changed their position on intimate relationships. And so far there has not been an explanation on that, except of course, that fans who wanted that are immature.

#17
Console Cowboy

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self censorship is the most heinous kind.

#18
VanDraegon

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Cant blame the Devs really, they are only human after all. Can only watch so many of these threads full of criticisms by forum posters before they respond to them. They are entitled to their opinions and apparently Bioware and EA dont care if they give them on the forums.



Why didnt you just dig up that thread where he made the comment, OP? This hardly warrants yet another thread on the topic.

#19
Evil Johnny 666

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Tleining wrote...

@ Evil Johnny
do yourself a favor and read the OP, really read and think about it.
Bioware defended the Romance Scenes of ME1: "BioWare maintained it needed to be faithful in depicting adult, intimate relationships without being prurient, but honest. People do get naked, or at least partially naked, to have sex." (OP)
And now in ME2 they don't have that. And the fans who expected Bioware to stand by their previous statements are let down, and suddenly they (the fans) are immature for expecting that.


Again: Bioware has every right to make the game how they want to do it. I like ME2 like it is, but i still wonder why they changed their position on intimate relationships. And so far there has not been an explanation on that, except of course, that fans who wanted that are immature.


What's so bad about it? It's ME2, not ME1. They have the right to change things in a sequel and that doesn't mean Bioware go against their values because of it, whatever the reason is. I mean, we didn't see anything but we can very well imagine they do have sex, does that go against what they've done before? Not at all. Hell if they wanted to "be faithful in depicting adult intimate relashioships without being purient", they could has well showed us the real sex from the beginning to the end in the first place. They just show us less and they didn't showed much in the first place.

#20
AdrynBliss

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Tleining wrote...

@ Evil Johnny
do yourself a favor and read the OP, really read and think about it.
Bioware defended the Romance Scenes of ME1: "BioWare maintained it needed to be faithful in depicting adult, intimate relationships without being prurient, but honest. People do get naked, or at least partially naked, to have sex." (OP)
And now in ME2 they don't have that. And the fans who expected Bioware to stand by their previous statements are let down, and suddenly they (the fans) are immature for expecting that.


Again: Bioware has every right to make the game how they want to do it. I like ME2 like it is, but i still wonder why they changed their position on intimate relationships. And so far there has not been an explanation on that, except of course, that fans who wanted that are immature.



very well said, it's what i would have said if I were more eloquent :)


Personally i'd like to see an apology by mr woo for that comment about immaturity when all a large section of those fans were doing was in fact supporting the principles Bioware themselves set for ME1.

#21
Lusitanum

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Well, this is a tricky subject. First off, I don't believe nudity should be used as a measure as to how "mature" a game is. Bioware wants to have a sex scene with or without nudity? Fine, go for whatever you think is best to convey the scene you're showing.

My problem is when the lack of nudity ruins a sex scene that is supposed to mean something in the game. For instance, using the OP's example, the sex scene in Dragon Age was laughable. You're off to have sex with someone and you don't even take off your clothes? Or in Morrigan's case, you even put them on? That didn't even seemed like a sex scene, it looked just like two people with a little less clothing rubbing themselves against each other.

Now in ME1 (I haven't gotten far enough in ME2 to have an opinion, so I'll have to go with the first game), that looked like an actual sex scene. I didn't need to see a side boob to get that, the nudity felt natural to the moment and it just felt right. If you had taken away what little nudity that scene had, it would still be a good sex scene because you didn't ruined the moment by showing somone's bra.

You don't want to show nudity? Fine, you don't need it all that much to make a sex scene. It helps, but it's not absolutely essential. Just don't show me clothing, unless you want me to stop taking the scene seriously.

#22
cerberus1701

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Both sides have a point.



Is the response condescending? Yeah. A bit. Making a game not a dictatorship no matter what the folks at Bioware have to say about it (And, yes the developers have used that word here) because you're trying to get the consumer to buy your product. This means a game designer can't just go off and do anything they want with millions of dollars and thousands of hours.To some extent they simply must cater to those they want cash from.



Did they shy away a bit after the first ME got the reaction that it got over that nothing scene? I've seen more racy stuff in soap operas. Yeah, I think it's pretty obvious that they pulled back a bit. In part because their response here and in the OPs link has been a little too defensive.



All that said, maturity in a game does NOT equal side boob. It's a depth of character, range of emotion and depth of relationships. In this sense ME2 is a very mature title. As much a part of the gameplay is the narrative, which demands emotional investment in the story.



The Tali evolution and choices there are very mature and adult and emotional. I want to see their relationship blossom because of what I saw onscreen. I don't care if they show side boob or even show her face or whatever else because the story is not about one single theatrical shot



I even felt for Jack and I never expected to. Other games just use some basic acting and a bare bones narrative to justify the fetching or shooting. And they may be good titles, but they are not necessarily mature ones from a storytelling perspective.

#23
SethSteiner

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Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

SethSteiner wrote...

It`s not about porn. My goddess in Terminator the sex scene was essential for the whole universe but would anyone call Terminator porn? No one would, so why this "watch porn if you want ******!" pops up everytime?


The difference, is that your example HAD a sex scene while ME2 doesn't have partial nudity. It's not people complaining because there IS, but because there ISN'T and that's the problem. Whatching a movie with sex scene is ok, can be fun, but whining because a game lacks clearly show these people want ******. Why would they want that otherwise? Because sex scenes is an integral part of a good story? Give me a break!


People complain because video games in general lack of sex. Would someone complain if the industry wouldn`t be scared to show a pair of breasts? I don`t think so. BioWare try to show us dark and dirty corners. If we see them in a movie, we see drugs, violence AND at least partial nudity. If I go to a brothel in a video game or to a club like Choras Den, I see nothing or a few dancers and that`s it. If I have an intense seen with my beloved partner like in the first part and the camera stops before the nipples, it doesn`t look serious anymore. Not because the lack of nipples but the harsh cut.

#24
The Demonologist

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Okay, I just may have realized something that could be a much larger contributing factor than any of us can really imagine.



The non-human romances. And I mean a certain 'obviously' non-human partner. Due to his appearance, and Bioware's lack of desire to show a Turian nude (Or... they have no clue what'd/how they'd portray it) it wouldn't be fair if all of them got a more intimate cutscene and said partymember got screwed.



Think about it, it might be more than just 'pulling back' as some form of shying away from it.



And for goodness's sake! This honestly isn't something to get worked up over!

#25
Evil Johnny 666

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SethSteiner wrote...

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

SethSteiner wrote...

It`s not about porn. My goddess in Terminator the sex scene was essential for the whole universe but would anyone call Terminator porn? No one would, so why this "watch porn if you want ******!" pops up everytime?


The difference, is that your example HAD a sex scene while ME2 doesn't have partial nudity. It's not people complaining because there IS, but because there ISN'T and that's the problem. Whatching a movie with sex scene is ok, can be fun, but whining because a game lacks clearly show these people want ******. Why would they want that otherwise? Because sex scenes is an integral part of a good story? Give me a break!


People complain because video games in general lack of sex. Would someone complain if the industry wouldn`t be scared to show a pair of breasts? I don`t think so. BioWare try to show us dark and dirty corners. If we see them in a movie, we see drugs, violence AND at least partial nudity. If I go to a brothel in a video game or to a club like Choras Den, I see nothing or a few dancers and that`s it. If I have an intense seen with my beloved partner like in the first part and the camera stops before the nipples, it doesn`t look serious anymore. Not because the lack of nipples but the harsh cut.


Well Bioware did it in ME1 as there will be in Heavy Rain for example. Bioware just thought it wasn't necessary for this one. You think there is a lack of sex in video games? Fine. I do not as I couldn't care less if there are boobs or not. Sure I don't hate seeing such thing in a movie, but it's pretty much always something minor so its exclusion really doesn't bother me at all.


And yeah, not all aliens look that humanoid like asaris.

Modifié par Evil Johnny 666, 06 février 2010 - 05:16 .