12 réponses à ce sujet

[Aquilas]

http://www.cinemable...Boob-22724.html
 
Mr. Woo, I don't like being treated as if I'm stupid.  Does BioWare have the right to choose not to include nudity or partial nudity in a game?  Of course it does.  But it shouldn’t lash out at fans who remark on an obvious inconsistency from ME1 to ME2.  I won’t take the bait in responding to insults regarding my maturity or lack thereof.  Because in my judgment, BioWare’s choice represents compromising its philosophy, perhaps even a core principle, BioWare defended in ME1.
 
Putting personal attacks on fan maturity aside, it is very reasonable to conclude BioWare chose not to include any partial nudity in ME2 because it’s reacting to criticism by the "morality police.”  Why would BioWare do that?  To increase its customer base, hence profitability.  For BioWare to claim such omissions are purely an artistic choice is disingenuous at best.
 
How can we conclude this?  Because BioWare included partial nudity in ME1—and affirmed its right to do so, vociferously and forcefully, when challenged by the "morality police.”  BioWare maintained it needed to be faithful in depicting adult, intimate relationships without being prurient, but honest.  People do get naked, or at least partially naked, to have sex.  During that time BioWare told Fox News--and other critics--that it was the critics who needed to be mature and adult about tasteful, intimate elements in ME1.  And now BioWare labels as immature fans who criticize BioWare's choice in ME2: a choice to omit content included in ME1.  Are some of these ME2 fan criticisms juvenile?  You betcha.  But many are thoughtful and mature.
 
Concomitantly, BioWare has claimed that omitting nudity or partial nudity in Dragon Age: Origins was an "aesthetic choice."  Seriously?  That "aesthetic" choice resulted in Morrigan showing less breast in love scenes than she did in her standard outfit.  So her lovemaking attire was more modest than her walking-around clothes—she had to dress up to have sex.  Aesthetic choice?  Please.
 
Much has been written about changes to the combat and inventory gameplay elements in ME2 to make it more of a shooter, so I’m not going to address those here.  But I give BioWare credit for being more open—if more than a bit subtle, too—in admitting those changes were not only in response to fan suggestions but also to increase ME2’s marketability.  We know this because BioWare has said several times, in several interviews, it’s trying to broaden Mass Effect 2’s appeal, to attract a player who may not have considered it before.  That means marketability and profitability.  One writer in these forums has called ME2 “Gears of War with Interactive Dialogue.”  I think that’s an overstatement, but it captures many fans’ feelings.  I think BioWare has been more honest in discussing shooter changes than those involving intimate content.
 
I think ME2 is a worthy successor to ME1.  I enjoy the story, the character development, and yes, the combat system.  Unlike some writers, I think the story arc flows well from ME1 to ME2, and some plot developments pleasantly surprised me.

 What I don’t like is BioWare condescending to fans who raise legitimate concerns about changes in intimate content from ME1 to ME2—concerns based on obvious incongruities in BioWare’s own stated philosophy and goals in game development.  I’d have much more respect if BioWare just flatly stated it abandoned nudity or partial nudity in ME2 because it wanted to enhance ME2’s profitably: it wanted to meet standards and goals Bobby Kotick has stated plainly—and honestly—many times.  That would show respect for BioWare’s fans—not disdain.

Modifié par Aquilas, 06 février 2010 - 04:49 .

[Stanley Woo]

Let me put on my Moderator hat for a moment to remind y'all that personal attacks, insults, and name-calling are not permitted in this forum. So please let's cut it out and be excellent to each other.



Okay, now let me put on my Stanley Woo hat. First, I'd like to thank everyone for their comment, both positive and negative. This community is here, first and foremost, for our customers and fans to talk about our games. It is also a place to hobnob directly with the developers of the games you love (or hate). Our openness, approachability, and direct access to developers are all reasons why the BioWare forums have always been well loved and critically acclaimed.



That said, a friend of mine this weekend linked me to an article which featured comments I'd made regarding the controversy surrounding the difference in the explicitness of the love scenes between Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2. These comments have made me out to be a condescending jerkface who doesn't appreciate BioWare's customers, its community, or the feedback it says it wants from this community.



Please allow me to clarify the comments which appear in the article (and I've seen no less than two such articles). From the article (and my forum post):

People who claim to be old enough and mature enough to handle sex and nudity in a game seem to believe that any lack of sex and nudity in the game is a sign of self-censorship.

Folks in this thread alone are under the impression that I'm addressing everyone who sees themselves as "old enough and mature enough to handle sex and nudity in a game" here. I am not. Some people in the thread in which I was posting exhibited this behaviour, certainly not all. Some in our community also believe in the "customer is always right" mentality. If we do something counter to what a customer suggests or prefers, such people rationalize, it has to be due to other factors such as the media uproar over ME1 or wanting to attract a wider audience or, in this case, "self-censorship."



There were many good points made in that thread, good and bad, and I was totally okay with people speaking their mind. For some, however, speaking their mind meant cruel accusations, wild speculation, and feeling entitled to take us to task for daring to not include the features they want.

They generally don't believe that a game can be called 'mature' without explicit sex and/or nudity.

I've participated in, followed, and locked down many a thread since Mass Effect 1 which equates maturity with explicit sex and/or nudity. There is a small subsection of our community which believes wholeheartedly that an M-rated game with character and story development must needs have boobs and boinking in any and all romances.

Let me tell you, folks, that as a developer full of mature individuals, we are also free to not have explicit sex and/or nudity in our games, no matter what you, Fox News, the government, or Bunky the Wonder Clown has to say about it. We have never considered it a 'problem,' it is simply a choice we have made and we have every right to make that choice.

I think this passage might have contributed to the accusations of arrogance and condescension, but I was merely speaking the truth. I have no doubt in my mind that, if the project directors decided to not have purple-bellied quatloos in Mass Effect 3, it would be very difficult to change their mind regardless of whether you were a customer, fan, media outlet, the government, or Fancypants the Flying Zebra. This makes a lot more sense when you consider that, by the time you hear about some features, they're already a done deal. Or, put another way, by the time you hear that a certain thing isn't in or has changed, it may very well be too late to do anything about it. That's just the way any huge project works. Some stuff, you talk about early in the process. Some you talk about late in the process. Some things can change easily, some things take work to change, and some require extensive breakdown or complete destruction to change.



When the heck did I make that original post they're quoting from, anyway? Sheesh, I can hardly remember. But I will address some of the comments made in this thread, not in the hopes of changing anyone's mind, but hopefully to make them feel a tiny bit less bad and/or to make them think I'm slightly less of a horrendous jerkface than they currently believe. Then, I can take a few questions, since I don't think I'm busy Sunday.



I'll make a new post cuz this one's getting long, and I'm well aware of the TL;DR factor in online message boards.

[Stanley Woo]

Okay, the response to other comments in this thread, starting from the top. Dang, it's past 3am already. Next time y'all have questions or concerns about something I said, just shoot me a message or link me to the thread where y'all are talking about me, okay? Here goes...



From Aquilas:

[quote]Mr. Woo, I don't like being treated as if I'm stupid.[/quote]

I'm sorry if you felt my comments were addressed to you or, indeed, anyone who presented their arguments in a professional, civil manner. It is never my intention to treat any of our community members as if they're stupid. Misguided or misinformed, maybe, but never stupid.

[quote]BioWare has claimed that omitting nudity or partial nudity in Dragon Age: Origins was an "aesthetic choice." Seriously?...her lovemaking attire was more modest than her walking-around clothes—she had to dress up to have sex. Aesthetic choice? Please.[/quote]

Just because you don't believe it or agree with it or like it, does not make it false.

[quote]I’d have much more respect if BioWare just flatly stated it abandoned nudity or partial nudity in ME2 because it wanted to enhance ME2’s profitably[/quote]

You might have had more respect, but the cries of "sell out" and "bowing to the almighty dollar" would drown out your kudos. And with that would come the cries of "BioWare cares only about money, not its fans," all refrains we've seen many times in these forums in response to decisions we've made.



From AdrynBliss:

[quote]Personally i'd like to see an apology by mr woo for that comment about immaturity when all a large section of those fans were doing was in fact supporting the principles Bioware themselves set for ME1.[/quote]

My statements were not addressed to everyone who questioned the differences between the love scenes in Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2, only a specific subset of those who did not present their arguments as maturely and professionally and logically as others did. If you did feel as if my comments were directed at you, and you were one of the former group, then I apologize wholeheartedly.



From cerberus1701:

[quote]Making a game [is] not a dictatorship no matter what the folks at Bioware have to say about it...because you're trying to get the consumer to buy your product. This means a game designer can't just go off and do anything they want with millions of dollars and thousands of hours.[/quote]

That's right, but no matter what the consumer says, that designer is still the one who has to do the job, and his manager is still the one who will plan his time, and the lead designer still has to schedule his tasks, and the project lead still has an overall vision for the game and its development. Yes, we want the players to like the game, but how many people do you expect to change gears just for you? Developers make all the decisions, and the game the customer picks up is the one the developer made. It was not customized by the player, the player wrote no code for it, drew no characters, and didn't pay any animators a single cent. That's what I mean when I say game development is not a democracy (I'm not sure if I was the one who used "dictatorship" but it's the same principle).

[quote]I've seen more racy stuff in soap operas. Yeah, I think it's pretty obvious that they pulled back a bit.[/quote]

This is a bit of a non-argument. Videogames are not soap operas, for one thing, and for another, there is no sex/nudity measurement you can use to determine just how much sex and nudity is appropriate for a given product. Is it because games need more sex and nudity, or that soap operas need less?



From AntiChri5:

[quote]The problem is that Bioware wants to have their cake and eat it too. Nothing vaugely approaching nudity dring sex scenes but you can get your secretary to give you a private half naked dance.[/quote]

I'm sorry, this doesn't even make sense. We decided to have no nudity so instead we put in half-nudity?



From Bendok:

[quote]It's not really about the nude pixels... it's about giving in to the man, so to speak. I think most of us just wanted Bioware to flip the proverbial bird to Fox News, Jack Thompson and the like.[/quote]

That is the absolute wrong reason to put nudity and sex into a game. We have never included controversial material to "flip the proverbial bird" to anyone, nor will we.



From Tleining:

[quote]they call Fans who expected them to stand by that previous statement immature.[/quote]

I'm unsure of where anyone (me especially) referred to someone as "immature." Can you please direct me to a quote or a link? In this thread, the accusation doesn't start until page 2 but runs really quickly from there.



From Yrkoon:

[quote]last I checked he wasn't a dev, but rather, the QA director)[/quote]

I am not, nor have I ever represented myself as, nor claimed to be speaking for, the QA director. On Mass Effect 2, I was working with the QA Story Team.



From tdl84:

[quote][Stanley Woo's] tone was not a professional one. It is his job to deal with people, and apparently he is not always capable of doing so in a polite and professional way, all he did was fan the flames, not put them out.[/quote]

It's funny you should say that. I re-read the original post I made in the forum, and I actually meant it pretty lightly. I honestly don't know how it exploded from there to land here in the land of Stan's-The-Biggest-Jerkface-land. I always try to maintain courtesy and maturity in my dealings with the community without losing my bluntness or my love for our community and our fans.



From diskoh:

[quote]That's how Woo has always been. Condescending, I mean. The guy has never even played Mass Effect (by his own admission). It's best to just ignore his posts about the subject, he doesn't have any insight into the game itself. He is quality assurance, not a dev.[/quote]

It's been a while since I've heard this argument, but I'll respond with a counter-argument. Since very few, if any, people complaining about Mass Effect were game developers, we should have simply ignored their posts about the subject, since they wouldn't have any insight into how games are built? That they are players, not devs?



While I've often been tempted to use this as an argument, I can't possibly be expected to believe that many people have experience with game development. It's not taught in most schools or computer classes, and it's pretty esoteric if you're not technically-oriented and haven't created anything for sale or worked on a multi-million dollar project. So, I no longer use that argument and discourage others from using it, because it's unfair to expect everyone to know what your job entails.



I would also ask why my posts about ME2 should be dismissed so casually. Sure, I only worked on ME1 for a week, but I was on ME2 for 8 months. Should I dismiss our players' comments about the game if they haven't played ME1? Are their praises and criticisms invalid because they didn't pursue a certain romance, or made different choices than you did, or didn't reach a certain arbitrary level? I disagree with you, sir.



Okay, that's the first 4 pages...

[Stanley Woo]

Here's the remainder of my responses to what was posted up until I was directed to the thread. Again, please remember that you can message us directly to comment on something we've said, or to direct us to a thread where you're talking about or complaining about something we've done or said.



From WilliamShatner:

If Mr. Woo thinks that equates to softcore porn he being hideously flippant and condesending about what his own company achieved with the original game.

ARe you guys having me on? Where did the softcore porn comparison come from?

I'm talking about the artistic merit of the original game's love scene, something Mr. Woo is degrading by his comments.

I'm sorry, but now I'm saying something against Mass Effect 1? I'm sorry, but I don't see where I'm doing this.



From MGIII:

It may not be collaborative, but feedback is certainly very important to developers. Why give us forums if you have a problem with our opinion on a certain thing?

Fan feedback is very important to us, and it's one reason I love our community. Where else can you come and talk to Chris Prieslty about the upcoming NFL game, or ask David Gaider about writing, or give John Winski feedback on certain game features, or talk to Christina Norman about how you played Mass Effect 1?



But the forums has rules, and each and every one of you agreed to abide by those rules when you signed up to participate in our community. Rules such as staying on topic as much as possible, being excellent to each other, and showing some modicum of respect for developers and publishers. It's not your opinions that I will ever have issue with, it's in the way those issues are presented. If an issue is presented constructively and sincerely, you'll rarely see me objecting. If an issue is presented with conspiracy theories, insults, whinging, and swearing, then it's very difficult to deal with constructively. The alternative is to simply not respond to anything, even those subjects of discussion that we as individuals care very much about. As a gamer myself, and a developer who loves what BioWare has done for CRPGs and its community, I usually opt to respond where I can.



From Nathangelion013:

THIS is about Bioware's spokesperson or whatever he is being completely rude to the people who make him and his company money. The dictatorship comment seriously made me want to never support Bioware again.

Hi, that'd be me. You can use my name if you like. ANd now I've read the quote where I do use the word. Still, it's kinda true. Look at it like this.



Your painting of a portrait of Ernest Borgnine is a dictatorship. No matter what your family and friends suggest, no matter what the Walter Matthau fan community says, no matter what Ernest Borgnine says, you may have taken all of their comments into consideration and read the autobiography and even talked to the man, but ultimately, it is you who paints the portrait, you who decides on the colours, the pose, the expression, the composition, even the material you're painting on. That's what makes you the "dictator" of that Ernest Borgnine portrait.



From Kalfear:

Mr Woo seems to hold gamers that disagree with him in a rather ill fashion it seems.

The reports of my jerkfacedness are greatly exaggerated, it seems. Indeed, I've been involved in numerous discussions where I have been disagreed with, sometimes vehemently. This appears to be a gradual escalation of outrage stemming from a misunderstanding and perhaps too much bluntness and honesty on my part.



The hysteria, strawman arguments, doomsaying, armchair developing, sarcasm, and sociopolitical sniping between the two sides isn't helping much, either.



From Tikkidew:

I was bit insulted by the comments of Mr. Woo after I read them. I'm glad someone brought his attitude to light. Someone in EA PR needs to put a leash on that guy. Just him lashing out like that speaks a thousand words. It's obvious what's really going on here.

Actually, it's not at all obvious to me. I'm sorry if I inadvertently insulted you, but could you point out just "what's really going on here"? You didn't clarify.



All right, ladies and gents. It's almost 6am here in Stan-land. I've done a whole lot of reading and writing, but I thought it needed to be addressed. I didn't want this thread exploding into a nuclear fire with me thrown into the centre of it by tomorrow afternoon, which is probably when I'll be awake enough and calm enough to read it again.



Keep it clean and civil in my absence, please, and I'll see you tomorrow... sometime... after I catch up on reading the comments posted while I was reading and writing. Thanks, everyone.

[Stanley Woo]

Okay, I'm caught up as of AdrynBliss' very lovely response. No apologies required.



I (and the rest of BioWare) am well aware that people feel a little more free to speak their minds here for a number of reasons that have made our community one of the best developer communities out there. To put it simply (because I am soooooo sleepy... 5:56am here):



1. We don't automatically remove all negative comments.

2. Developers actually read so people feel they'll be listened to.

3. Developers actually respond so people want to help as much as possible.



ANd now, good night.

[Stanley Woo]

Aquilas wrote...
You're asserting that omitting intimate content in ME2 and DA:O was a purely artistic and aesthetic choice.  That is, there were no business considerations in these decisions.  Despite including such content in ME1.

I don't believe I have ever said that there was only one reason for the choices made, or what that choice was. I was not involved in those decisions, nor do I have the authority to make those decisions. I can, however, tell you likely reasons why developers make the choices they do, and I can respond to arguments made here on the forums.

Believing that there are "no business considerations in these decisions" is silly. Every decision made has something to do wtih business, because the game has to be sold. And because we'd like to be proud of the game we've created, decisions also have to be made for artistic and aesthetic reasons. Neither can really be ignored, and that's not including decisions made for purely practical reasons such as time and resources available. Can anyone on the forums nail down precisely why these decisions were made? No, absolutely not, but they can make logical guesses that may or may not be true. I'm certainly not going to say for certain which is true and and which isn't. I can but make counter-arguments based on my experience as a member of the QA team who has shipped numerous titles, and as an individual who has worked on projects which require such decisions.

So here's my bottom line: did the developers and/or any other decision makers at BioWare or EA consider marketability and profitability in deciding whether or not to include nudity or partial nudity in ME2 (or DA:O)?  Did those business considerations affect content?

It's not really a fair question, since as I mentioned above, all decisions made during development have something to do with the final product which is intended to be sold and appeal to as many people as possible.

Mr. Woo, if you respond with an unqualified "No, BioWare and EA didn't consider marketability and profitability at all in toning down  intimate content in ME2" (or words to that effect), I'll take you at your word.  Even considering the "shooter changes" in the game to broaden ME2's appeal, hence broaden its market, hence profitability, gameplay changes do not equal artistic changes.  Thanks again for listening and talking to us.

I'm sorry, but I can neither confirm nor deny the conclusion you've reached. Sorry.

[Stanley Woo]

Mev186 wrote...

Mr. Woo,

I thank you for your time in responding to the issues raised in this thread. However, I think many of us here would appreciate an explaination or clarification about the "dictatorship" remark made in another thread. While I firmly believe as artist and developers you have every right to make these games as you see them. This company has had a well established relationship with it's fans. We trust you. I, myself have bought nearly every game Bioware has published since KOTOR. (My PC can't handle Dragon Age). Mass Effect and it's sequel could not have been made possible without the support of the fans. By saying that it is a "dictatorship" even if taken out of context, you risk tarnishing the relationship with your fanbase. As for the romance in ME2, I myself thought it was done well, it was intimate and meaningful.

Then take it in the context in which the statement was meant. I have already explained the "dictatorship" statement in this very thread. Whether you accept that explanation or wish to continue to be offended by it is no longer my concern. I have neither the time nor the patience to ensure that each and every person is satisfied with my explanations. On the anonymous internets, that's just an exercise in futility. But I hope at least some people got where I was coming from, and what I meant by it.

[Stanley Woo]

PilotJoe wrote...
Hence the title of this thread.  This absolutely drips with condescension and disdain.  

edit: As for the anonymity of the internets, the only party here not anonymous is you, Woo, and your company.  I appreciate you taking the time to let us know that wether or not your customers are offended by your disengenuity and full-on mockery is 'no longer your concern'. 

And it seems that without constant reassurance that I am caring and wish to repeat my clarifications and explanations. You are free to be as offended as you like, i cannot stop you from feeling what you feel. I also cannot force you to interpret my statements any differently than you have already interpreted them.

My intention was to stop this thread from exploding in angry, nuclear fire. I have accomplished that. Now, I continue to read the thread in the hopes that folks will actually read and comprehend what has already been said, so that I don't have to stay up until 6 in the morning on one of my days off to clear it up again.

Why do you want to think the worst of me and my intentions when there is evidence that I do care about our community? folks like Khavos and Mister Mage seem to understand exactly what I'm saying, while folks like you and John Hyperion (and the person who was arguing with Khavos in the last couple of pages. I'm sorry, but I can't recall your name) don't. That's fine, but as I said, I don't have the time to deal with it now that it's a weekday and I have a job to do.

Perhaps, if there is still something for me to clear up this evening, I will wade in again. If, on the other hand, people are still just taking exception with my tone or the words I used, or simply choose to ignore what I've already posted in this thread, there really is nothing more that I'm willing to do to "win you over." I am always willing to agree to disagree, however.

EDIT: I'd like to ask that people stop swearing, please. And if you haven't already read through this thread, I highly encourage it. It will help stop the "if you really want to see boobs, the internet is full of them" type arguments. THat's not what this thread is about. Thank you.

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 08 février 2010 - 05:44 .

[Stanley Woo]

Let's try and keep this on-topic, please, everyone, otherwise I will be forced to shut it down. And I thought we were having a decent discussion up until these last couple of pages. Bringing in off-topic elements serves only to muddy the actual subject of discussion. And I am assured by many of the more rational and mature participants in this thread that the issue goes deeper than a mere "omg bewbz!" Thank you.

[Stanley Woo]

Another warning to please stop the swearing and the insults towards each other. And Khavos and Fexelea, if you could get a room and take your little spat to private, that would be much appreciated. You argument on whose arguments are valid are really getting off-topic and spammy.

[Stanley Woo]

VironZ wrote...
Mr. Woo - what is your full consensus on nudity?

Considering I am but one man, any "consensus" I come to is nothing but one man's opinion.

Do you feel that the developing team have weighed the positives of negatives fully?

I'm not really sure what you're asking, or what you mean by "fully"? I'm also not sure what their opinions have to do with yours. Even if your opinion and their opinions match perfectly, it doesn't get us anywhere except to see whether you have the same views. What's done will still have been done. If you disagree, then nothing changes. What's done will still have been done, except now, you'll think they were wrong.

What do you think? Do you personally think that nudity should be in Mass Effect?

I think that Mass Effect 2 is one of the best games BioWare has ever made. My personal opinions on nudity and/or sex in videogames are just that--personal--and have no bearing on this discussion, which people keep telling me isn't about seeing or not seeing nudity in MAss Effect 2. I'm finding it more and more difficult to believe those people as this thread goes on.

And Khavos, you might want to tone it down. Your posts are leaning towards the more aggressive and hostile. Thank you.

[Stanley Woo]

What have you got against Han Solo?

[Stanley Woo]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Two letters explain the change:

EA

Two letters refute your argument:

NO.

I do like your screen name, though. It's awesome!