793 réponses à ce sujet

[LokiHades]

jienoma wrote...

Many of the complaints about the romance ending in Mass Effect 2, were not about the absence of naked breasts or explicit sex action, but focused on the lack of artistical appealing. Believe me when i say that many of us are not interested in something vulgar, but something more aesthetically and artistically pleasing.

This is what I'm aiming for. I said it before, I'm not looking for porn (anyone with half a brain or more can find it online). I'm not looking for explict, vulgar, and silly sex scenes. I'm looking for plausible, artistic, and aesthetically pleasing romance scenes. I admit, a lot of people get out of hand about it. ME2's (in my opinion) better than the first in many aspects, but this is one of the ones where it fell short..

[Aquilas]

Mr. Woo, I sincerely thank you for taking the time to respond to my original post and the subsequent ME fan comments.  I know you're way busy reading the fans' posts and responding to them, all over the forums, so I appreciate muchly your attention to this thread.

I also thank you for describing my comments as civil and professional.  I noted in my original post that not all fans are juvenile, flamers, or juvenile flamers.  So thanks for acknowledging thoughtful, constructive critics. 

I hope you don't think me misguided and misinformed.  Please read my original post again (as if you had time for that), and note that I was drawing my very own conclusions based on the evidence at hand.  Here's my supplemental post.  I said my supplemental post was the last, but I owe you the courtesy of a reply:

Aquilas wrote...

Once again I say, and for the last time in this thread--I am not whining about the lack of partial nudity or more explicit sex scenes in ME2, or DA:O. That is, that they're not there, and I want them there.

I'm commenting on Mr. Woo's (and other BioWare executives') assertion that these omissions, and those in DA:O, are due to purely artistic preferences and aesthetic choices. And on Mr. Woo's response to criticism that the complainers are immature. He doesn't label all such complainers as immature, true, but the brush he uses paints a broad swath.

Please note I acknowledge Mr. Woo's right to choose what content his games include. But BioWare already included--and defended--partial nudity in ME1, and now have omitted it in ME2. I'm not accusing Mr. Woo of self-censorship--I don't have to. It's clear he's already done it.

Marketability and profitability for game developers are in keen focus right now. Read some of the articles on EA's financial performance, in particular. So admit it, BioWare--commercial concerns were key factors in determining what sexual content was or wasn't included in ME2. You have to keep the doors open and the lights on, after all. Say so.

Note I said your "immature" label wasn't a blanket condemnation, but that your comments could be construed as such.  I probably contributed to the impression they were all-encompassing, so for that I wholeheartedly apologize. 

I understand you're being flamed for caving to pressure from "family advocate" groups, and that you're groveling before the "Almighty Dollar." And as I reread my original post, I may have contributed to that impression too.  But that's overstating my position, even given what I wrote.

You're asserting that omitting intimate content in ME2 and DA:O was a purely artistic and aesthetic choice.  That is, there were no business considerations in these decisions.  Despite including such content in ME1.

Please note the last paragraph in my supplemental quote.  Calling business decisions "key factors" was too strong on my part, but my conclusion remains the same. 

So here's my bottom line: did the developers and/or any other decision makers at BioWare or EA consider marketability and profitability in deciding whether or not to include nudity or partial nudity in ME2 (or DA:O)?  Did those business considerations affect content?

This isn't a trivial concern.  The tension between profit and artistic freedom is longstanding and well-established.  It affects content in movies, television, books, magazines, fine art, music, and other media.  Artists are asked to compromise on content--how often, we don't really know, unless a reliable source tells us.  That affects whether or not we, the consumers, players, fans, see the artists' vision realized.  And developers are artists.  Period.  Dot. 

I reiterate my compliments for ME2, and I admire BioWare games immensely.  I've been playing computer games since the original Ultima and Wizardry series in the early 1980s.  BioWare games unquestionably are the finest games around.  I'm still trying to decide which is my favorite PC or console game of all time--almost 30 years in my case: KotOR or ME1.  Jade Empire is third (sometimes higher).

Mr. Woo, if you respond with an unqualified "No, BioWare and EA didn't consider marketability and profitability at all in toning down  intimate content in ME2" (or words to that effect), I'll take you at your word.  Even considering the "shooter changes" in the game to broaden ME2's appeal, hence broaden its market, hence profitability, gameplay changes do not equal artistic changes.  Thanks again for listening and talking to us.

**NOTE:  Modified to reflect my new profile photo.  I'll miss Scholar Ling....

Modifié par Aquilas, 12 février 2010 - 02:21 .

[Rixxencaxx]

I think that we should look at this game like half life or gears of war.

It's not an rpg it's a really good action game.

We have no

1) inventory

2) different outfits

3) customizable body and armour

i like this game, it's a great action game and if you accept that this is not an rpg then you will accept no nudity no romances etc etc etc...

If you are looking for a real complex rpg then go dragon age...

[Console Cowboy]

++ respect for Stanley Woo for participating in the discussion here and not just ignoring or locking the thread. very cool, man.

[TigerTongPo]

Aquilas wrote...

You're asserting that omitting intimate content in ME2 and DA:O was a purely artistic and aesthetic choice.  That is, there were no business considerations in these decisions.  Despite including such content in ME1.

...

So here's my bottom line: did the developers and/or any other decision makers at BioWare or EA consider marketability and profitability in deciding whether or not to include nudity or partial nudity in ME2 (or DA:O)?  Did those business considerations affect content?

This isn't a trivial concern.  The tension between profit and artistic freedom is longstanding and well-established.  It affects content in movies, television, books, magazines, fine art, music, and other media.  Artists are asked to compromise on content--how often, we don't really know, unless a reliable source tells us.  That affects whether or not we, the consumers, players, fans, see the artists' vision realized.  And developers are artists.  Period.  Dot. 

The first quoted paragraph makes it pretty clear that you have your answer to the question in the second quoted paragraph. As to the idea of Bioware exercising artistic freedom without constraint, I am curious as to why you feel that in choosing not to go with nudity, they have somehow failed to be free in their art. Does freedom require nudity? Does art require pushing the boundaries that have already been pushed before? Must a developer do the same song and dance each iteration of a product because that's what consumers expect?

By demanding Bioware reproduce the nudity from ME 1 to ME 2, it seems more like you are constraining their artistic freedom. You reduce their choices to one: include nudity/do what was done before. It's the same as anyone who would constrain them to no nudity based on whatever prudish morals they wished to impose on someone else.

The real bottom line is that Bioware had a choice: nudity in the love scenes, or no nudity. They made their choice. They said it was for artistic/aesthetic purposes. Any supposition that it was "caving to the man" is just that, and people who truly believe they caved or sold out will not be swayed otherwise as long as they persist on having irrational conspiracy theories. I say now as I said earlier, the real question you should ask is whether or not Bioware was honest in their portrayal of adult relationships. They wouldn't be the first bunch of storytellers to do so without resorting to nudity, and they won't be the last.

[Lmaoboat]

I'm glad they toned it down, the love scenes in ME1 felt like a cheap "sex sells" move aimed at the horny middle-schooler demographic.

[Llandaryn]

Rixxencaxx wrote...

We have no
1) inventory
2) different outfits
3) customizable body and armour
i like this game, it's a great action game and if you accept that this is not an rpg then you will accept no nudity no romances etc etc etc...

If you are looking for a real complex rpg then go dragon age...

Eh wot? Sure we had different outfits and customisable body/armour, at least as far as facial appearance and being able to change your armour is concerned. And an inventory does not an RPG make.

Real complex RPG = Planescape: Torment. Less aesthetically customisable than ME2 (you're forced to be the Nameless One) but no less of an RPG for it.

[Stanley Woo]

Aquilas wrote...
You're asserting that omitting intimate content in ME2 and DA:O was a purely artistic and aesthetic choice.  That is, there were no business considerations in these decisions.  Despite including such content in ME1.

I don't believe I have ever said that there was only one reason for the choices made, or what that choice was. I was not involved in those decisions, nor do I have the authority to make those decisions. I can, however, tell you likely reasons why developers make the choices they do, and I can respond to arguments made here on the forums.

Believing that there are "no business considerations in these decisions" is silly. Every decision made has something to do wtih business, because the game has to be sold. And because we'd like to be proud of the game we've created, decisions also have to be made for artistic and aesthetic reasons. Neither can really be ignored, and that's not including decisions made for purely practical reasons such as time and resources available. Can anyone on the forums nail down precisely why these decisions were made? No, absolutely not, but they can make logical guesses that may or may not be true. I'm certainly not going to say for certain which is true and and which isn't. I can but make counter-arguments based on my experience as a member of the QA team who has shipped numerous titles, and as an individual who has worked on projects which require such decisions.

So here's my bottom line: did the developers and/or any other decision makers at BioWare or EA consider marketability and profitability in deciding whether or not to include nudity or partial nudity in ME2 (or DA:O)?  Did those business considerations affect content?

It's not really a fair question, since as I mentioned above, all decisions made during development have something to do with the final product which is intended to be sold and appeal to as many people as possible.

Mr. Woo, if you respond with an unqualified "No, BioWare and EA didn't consider marketability and profitability at all in toning down  intimate content in ME2" (or words to that effect), I'll take you at your word.  Even considering the "shooter changes" in the game to broaden ME2's appeal, hence broaden its market, hence profitability, gameplay changes do not equal artistic changes.  Thanks again for listening and talking to us.

I'm sorry, but I can neither confirm nor deny the conclusion you've reached. Sorry.

[DaeJi]

I don't have a problem with no nudity in Mass Effect 2 except for one scene, that that's with Jack who is mostly naked anyway. Thing is, most the romances end in a non-naked encounter since it cuts off before they get that far. Now, if it did get that far, yes there should be nudity. People do get naked to have sex.

[OpsWolf75]

I mentioned my thoughts about the nudity in one of the many other threads. But I will say it again here since Mr. Woo is actively responding to this thread (I suppose we should just start including the BW employee's name in the thread title to get a quicker reaction ;-)



I don't need sex scenes in my games, it is fine with me if the dev's don't include them. However there is nothing more ridiculous then the scene in Dragon Age (in undies wtf?). Why not just fade to black? I am not saying it is immersion shattering, but it did make me laugh. Either show nudity or don't show nudity but don't do lame medieval underwear dry humping. The "sex" scenes should not induce hilarity, it is a failure by the BW team that it does.



A perfect example from a different media, Burn Notice on USA did a quick scene with banter, pull one string to remove dress, show dress falling to floor/on the floor. and then fade to black. Next day they are in hotel robes. No need to show anything and everyone knows what happened.



Not to speak for people, but I guess I am....I feel that Bioware should understand that when people get upset it is because they were the only dev doing tasteful mature nudity that didn't insult a gender or the intelligence of the player (in American Video Games). It is incredibly rare to find games that have realistic characters with semi-realistic bodies who have rather realistic relationships that end in a little bit of mature content. I don't need full frontal, nor do I feel anyone is asking for that.



It is very sad that America is so worried about people seeing sex/nudity but showing/participating in the murder/genocide/slaughter of "innocent" people is completely okay. The news will show death, the dead, the dying - you can play games where you slaughter hundreds of people, shoot the heads off people, etc - but a slight bit of nudity and society goes crazy.





As I've said before - "Their game, their decision" but I will add "My wallet, my decision". Don't think that because I bought the second that I will buy the third. There is always Gamefly.

[danman2424]

i don't know about all this "nudity is bad" or "nudity is progressive" talk, but I do know that when i had finally achieved the love scene, the only feeling I was left with, and many of the people on my friends list were left with was just "Lame".

If that makes me a pervert then so be it, but the fact of the matter is the love scene was so tame that you are left feeling unrewarded for all of your work getting to this point from the beginning of the game.

My initinal guess would've been that EA, being Bioware's new overlords, cracked the whip when Bioware started to get a little too forward-thinking, but having played the demo of EA's Dante's Inferno, I highly doubt that is the case.

Just seems very strange that a game with such language, talks of sex, racism, rape, and dealing with so many issues that are so mature, that a bare butt would now be crossing the line in their eyes. I hardly think anyone playing the game and listening to the conversations and committing the actions in which the above issues take place without being offended would suddenly scoff at a more fleshed out love scene.

Modifié par danman2424, 07 février 2010 - 09:13 .

[sam.delatorre]

It's ok for us to be capture by the plot and the characters but not the romance?



I have to agree I expected more from the romance scene. ME1's scene was tasteful, and entertaining. ME2's scene was not.



I don't see how more or less nudity would have changed sales numbers.



This article was taken from "Shacknews.com":

"BioWare's fellow Xbox 360 exclusive Mass Effect moving more than 1.6 million units after its November 20 [2008] release. - written January 3rd 2008



This article from "xcastonline.com":

"Mass Effect 2, well, it turned out to be pretty successful. In case you were the doubting kind. BioWare's "dark second act" of the trilogy hit the streets this past Tuesday [January 26th 2010], and has already sold 2 million copies worldwide, EA announced today." - Written January 29, 2010.



Now that we have a perspective on units sold. Can you really account the change to the lack of nudity? Did more parents allow their kids to buy the game since it didn't have partial nudity? The same kids who watch porn at home on their personal laptop or cell phones when their parents aren't looking? We allow kids to have cellphones at a young age these days. However, they cannot see a sideboob on a video game?



America is so f*cking full of hypocrites these days.



Doesn't it make more sense to account the difference to marketing? The offer to get special armor and guns by reserving the game? Prime-time commercials about said upgrades, not to mention Internet ads! Word of mouth making it the most anticipated game of late 2009 and early 2010?



Lets face it people, if you were captured by the story (which I was), you wanted to see an honest, yet tasteful love scene. We're all mature here (hence the Mature rating from ESRB) so we wanted to see some t&a. Is that so hard to swallow BioWare? - Or should I say EA?

[Parallax Demon]

In ME2 Bioware changed a lot of things. They made it less a RPG and more a squad based tactical shooter. About these changes have been numerous posts, in which the pro's and cons are being debated. Fanboys of the original argueing against fanboys of the sequal and the same is happening in this post.

Fanboys of ME2 don't want their game being criticised and come up with excuses like:

- If you want to see porn, go see the internet.

- A games doesn't need any nudity to be a mature game.

- It's a action based game, LI; what ever!



To all these posters I have one simple question: Do you think that ME2 would be a lesser game if BW had incorperated an normal lovescene, like they did in the original?

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

Guys&(Girls) go take this issue to EA since their the publisher.If anyone had a hand in censoring content it's them as a publisher.Like Bioware said it's a dictatorship , not from developer to consumer but from Publisher to Developer.Publisher has the final say so and can kill a game if the developer doesn't listen them.

Modifié par LOST SPARTANJLC, 07 février 2010 - 09:43 .

[Artemis_Entrari]

Rixxencaxx wrote...

My opinion...

Should mass effect 2 or dragon age have shown full nude sex scenes ?
No it is not a porn game.

While I'm completely indifferent on whether there is or isn't nudity in the game, why do people feel the need to refer to such a game as "porn game"?

Movies that show nudity, and even graphic sex scenes, aren't all pornography.  Many mainstream movies, blockbusters even, have full nudity and include quite detailed sex scenes.  But they're not porn.  So why do people instantly believe that a game with a similar scene (full nudity, some depiction of the sex act) would be a porn game?

[Sean]

so I read some of this thread and most of Mr. Woo's statements and I have no idea on why people feel so strongly towards this. It is just a game. Not real. ( A great game, but still just a game)

Modifié par RX_Sean_XI, 07 février 2010 - 09:55 .

[Satanicfirewraith]

I dont get all the fuss....

Yes I wish I could see Miranda topless... (or her voice actress!) its not a big deal. Now I do agree that the scene seems silly with her and Shep on the engine room floor (which looks like they are going at it, but still fully clothed) but honestly, the game has bigger issues in it then the lack of nudity....

Like the horrid ammo system or the lack of inventory, weapons, armor, story missions, side quests....

[Anacronian Stryx]

I still wonder if these people complaining also writes to a movie director if they went and saw a film without nudity?



Even if said movie director has made a film with nudity before people have no to expect it again, After all there can be numerous reasons as to why there is no nudity - chief amongst them is that the movie maker just didn't want to have nudity in his film this time.

[Vlainstrike]

Satanicfirewraith wrote...

I dont get all the fuss....
Yes I wish I could see Miranda topless... (or her voice actress!) its not a big deal. Now I do agree that the scene seems silly with her and Shep on the engine room floor (which looks like they are going at it, but still fully clothed) but honestly, the game has bigger issues in it then the lack of nudity....
Like the horrid ammo system or the lack of inventory, weapons, armor, story missions, side quests....

If you think this topic is 'just' about nudity then you've missed the boat completely - nudity is certainly part of it, but if you read any of the threads dedicated to this topic you'll notice it is also about censorship, the changes in quality & believability of romantic storytelling, the consistency of content amongst other mature topics these games have openly and thoroughly addressed (like murder, slavery, police brutality, drugs, racism etc...), and the list goes on...

If you are among those (and this isn't just directed at you) who 'just don't get it', then you  haven't taken an honest look at what people are really complaining about.

Modifié par Vlainstrike, 07 février 2010 - 11:03 .

[Killian Kalthorne]

Llandaryn wrote...
Real complex RPG = Planescape: Torment. Less aesthetically customisable than ME2 (you're forced to be the Nameless One) but no less of an RPG for it.

I don't consider Torment as a complex RPG.  Also the greatest flaws of that game is the Nameless One.  Lastly, just how well did that game sell?  Never very well at all.  Torment is a very much a story driven CRPG, but a little too rigid for my tastes.  One of the reasons why I only played it once compared to the BG series and the IWD series of that time.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Parallax Demon wrote...
To all these posters I have one simple question: Do you think that ME2 would be a lesser game if BW had incorperated an normal lovescene, like they did in the original?

If the emotional impact was there as it was in ME1, yes.  However there was no emotional impact, not compared to ME1's level, so a short causal scene is okay with me.  The bottomline is that ME2 was not as well written and put together as ME1 was, and sex for the sake of sex would have made it even worse.

[Rixxencaxx]

Just to clarify...they didn't say that me2 sold 2 million units....they said that me2 "SHIPPED" 2 millions unit

[Aquilas]

Mr. Woo, thanks again for replying.

You're right--I don't believe you ever directly attributed sexual content changes to artistic choices. I'll bet I was thinking of this article about nudity in DA:O:

http://www.videogame...tic_choice.html

So when you say you can't confirm or deny my conclusion about such choices in ME2 because you don't have the knowledge or experience to do so, I accept that. Most likely, I was extrapolating from and contrasting it with BioWare's defense of sex and nudity in ME1. Here's a link:

http://pc.ign.com/ar.../1002038p1.html

The ign article is what I've been referring to when discussing content BioWare included in ME1. It quotes Dr. Zeschuk himself.  He describes why tasteful sexual content and nudity are appropriate and honest in depicting intimate, romantic relationships.

You may be familiar with this article:

http://gaygamer.net/..._snippy_ab.html

Note that the author links our discussion here so readers can see your explanation.

To TigerTongPro: I'm not asking and answering my own question. I'm questioning BioWare's assertions. The author of the "Snippy" article expresses my viewpoint:

"I honestly don't buy the 'EA made 'em do it' conspiracy theory, as they're also publishing the boob-tastic Dante's Inferno. Whatever the reason, I think Bioware has to accept that even small decisions like this are fair game for criticism, as the same questions would be asked of authors or directors who seemingly changed course over their careers. Claiming that the people asking those questions only have purient interests in mind is unfair and inaccurate."

I'm questioning BioWare's changing direction, given Dr. Zeschuk's comments about sex and nudity in ME1. I'm not spinning conspiracy theories. ME1 contained content absent in ME2.  ME1 was at the center of a controversy regarding sexual content. So it is reasonable to ask if that controversy affected business and artistic decisions about content in ME2? I say yes.

But here's the end of my analysis:

Terror_K wrote...

The fact was, the original game presented the scenes in a tasteful, appropriate and very genre-fitting manner that suits the style of the medium. I don't really see the need to tone down the content. And I suppose a lot of people out there are wondering exactly why the choice was made regarding ME2 to do that, because it definitely seems like a conscious decision that the ME2 team decided to purposefully avoid it this time around. I don't know... only you, Stanley, and those who worked on the game would know for sure.

And this:

Raible wrote...

[There are] motives which devs wouldn't state outright for various reasons, so all this discussing about lack of nudity without the proper but hidden context is very likely rather useless. The devs know why they did it but are extremely unlikely to tell anyone, end of story.

As I said in my supplemental post, only a reliable source can answer my question. I agree with Stanley, given what he's said--he's not the right guy. Given the unlikelihood of finding the reliable source, for my part it's time to end this discussion. Thanks to every poster for participating.

Modifié par Aquilas, 08 février 2010 - 12:55 .

[Satanicfirewraith]

Vlainstrike wrote...

Satanicfirewraith wrote...

I dont get all the fuss....
Yes I wish I could see Miranda topless... (or her voice actress!) its not a big deal. Now I do agree that the scene seems silly with her and Shep on the engine room floor (which looks like they are going at it, but still fully clothed) but honestly, the game has bigger issues in it then the lack of nudity....
Like the horrid ammo system or the lack of inventory, weapons, armor, story missions, side quests....

If you think this topic is 'just' about nudity then you've missed the boat completely - nudity is certainly part of it, but if you read any of the threads dedicated to this topic you'll notice it is also about censorship, the changes in quality & believability of romantic storytelling, the consistency of content amongst other mature topics these games have openly and thoroughly addressed (like murder, slavery, police brutality, drugs, racism etc...), and the list goes on...

If you are among those (and this isn't just directed at you) who 'just don't get it', then you  haven't taken an honest look at what people are really complaining about.

I've missed nothing...
but I wasnt going to bring it up... but the point is nonrelavent.
The ONLY way you can claim that they self cencored is if you can show us a single clip of any of their LI climax scenes that actually had nudity in them to start with and was changed.

Just because ME 1 had a love scene with some boob in it (ok 2 scenes) and ME 2 dont doesn't mean it was cencored. Watch the movie 40 Days and 40 Nights there is a love scene in it where they dont even get undressed.
Again just because they dont strip and show male or female private parts, dont mean its cencored or some stupid **** like that. and honestly the ONLY way to prove it is, is if you have some sort of clip from ME 2's development that actually shows them that way compared to what we got now. So basicly unless your a BW employee I doubt your going to have this kind of clip, and if you are and show it, I doubt you'll be employed to much longer..

No I will say it was a bit of a let down for me, and it felt a bit odd when the zoom out was happening and they were both still almost fully clothed and liked like they were going at it.... but hey, its a minor scene that really effects nothing to be honest, and with all the flaws and steps backwards BW made in ME 2, this is something that just makes me say so ****ing what.

[Impresario]

Stanley Woo wrote...
 all decisions made during development have something to do with the final product which is intended to be sold and appeal to as many people as possible.

Mr. Woo, that's the crux of the matter. This entire debate could be settled by answering a single question: Whether the game was designed to appeal to a target market under 17? 

If you take the time to respond please don't fallback on it's rated M--that's a non-answer.