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Nudity Criticisms--BioWare Condescends. This Means You, Mr. Woo


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#276
Toastysoul

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ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

2. Immature desire to see boobs.  It's why we see all these nudity mods for games like Oblivion, Dragon Age and Fallout 3.  In fact, they're usually the first mods we see crop up.  It's not about immersion or about "maturity" at all.


So said by "ITSSEXYTIME". Maturity level = 0 You fail.

Desire to see boobs/bareass/nudity is not immaturity, perversion, or shameful. It's a personal preference, many -- MANY people are quite comfortable with their own bodies, and looking at the bodies of others. Failure to show nudity during what is supposed to be an act nearly requiring some form of nakedness is game breaking, more so given every other aspect of the female characters of the game. You can't point to one female team memeber (save Tali) that doesn't have a very specific appeal. Those of us (adults who have moved past giggling at "boobies") recognize that, and refuse to just be ignored because the desires of another group who would never buy the game anyway. If anything the game designers need to realize that there is a demand for a type of content beyond what is being thrown out there. I'm not advocating for a nude patch to ship with the game, but I think the majority of people were satisfied with how it was handled in the first game. I never actually played through with a renegade character, and so I never saw that scene, which generated the bulk of the blow back. Perhaps what needed a change was not the nudity, but how the scene was written.

#277
TopUSGun

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Toastysoul wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

2. Immature desire to see boobs.  It's why we see all these nudity mods for games like Oblivion, Dragon Age and Fallout 3.  In fact, they're usually the first mods we see crop up.  It's not about immersion or about "maturity" at all.


So said by "ITSSEXYTIME". Maturity level = 0 You fail.

Desire to see boobs/bareass/nudity is not immaturity, perversion, or shameful. It's a personal preference, many -- MANY people are quite comfortable with their own bodies, and looking at the bodies of others. Failure to show nudity during what is supposed to be an act nearly requiring some form of nakedness is game breaking, more so given every other aspect of the female characters of the game. You can't point to one female team memeber (save Tali) that doesn't have a very specific appeal. Those of us (adults who have moved past giggling at "boobies") recognize that, and refuse to just be ignored because the desires of another group who would never buy the game anyway. If anything the game designers need to realize that there is a demand for a type of content beyond what is being thrown out there. I'm not advocating for a nude patch to ship with the game, but I think the majority of people were satisfied with how it was handled in the first game. I never actually played through with a renegade character, and so I never saw that scene, which generated the bulk of the blow back. Perhaps what needed a change was not the nudity, but how the scene was written.


QFT

#278
Khavos

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Toastysoul wrote...

A hero? That's drinking the kool-aid a little much don't you think? A good employee perhaps, but I wouldn't extend that too far given the context in which he became directly named and involved in this discussion (i.e. so quoted "Dictoatorship" and "Immature fan" comments). Not everyone cares about superbowl Sunday either. I spent my time playing ME2. ;)



I don't think it's drinking any sort of kool-aid, no.  I don't particularly like ME2 all that much, and I'm not a big fan of Bioware to begin with.

But the number of people getting their panties in a twist over the (apparent) revelation that it's the developers and not the fans who decide what goes into a game is absurd, and the guy's taking the time to actually bother addressing it.  I'd roll my eyes and let the delusions go unchecked, were I him.  

#279
Fexelea

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I think people are upset at the manner in which Stanley chose to express himself. It was clumsy, emotional and not appropriate for someone representing a company.

#280
Khavos

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Fexelea wrote...

I think people are upset at the manner in which Stanley chose to express himself. It was clumsy, emotional and not appropriate for someone representing a company.


I don't think that's it, personally, but you're more than welcome to feel that way.

Incidentally, he didn't say anything remarkably offensive.  Nor was it even clumsy.  It's the perfect analogy.

#281
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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Eh they tastefully showed a tiny bit of side boobage in ME 1, and went to fully clothed frottage in ME2. It doesn't really bother me either way but it does seem a tad silly to tastefully represent sex in the first game, then somewhat kinda half ass it in ME2. Not a big deal mind you, enjoyed the game regardless.

#282
Wintermist

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*shrugs* I can honestly say I would rather be without nudity than have a supposedly nude scene with people still wearing underwear. I'd sooner have them hide areas where nudity is obvious, like nipples and genitalia.

If they create all these scenes like they did in Mass Effect 1, I think it was perfect. You had your romantic encounter, but it was never offensive to anyone. What your characters took it form there was in your head, and that's how it should be. Your mind is ever more capable of filling in the gaps and making it real for you than any try to make you a full romantic scene.

#283
Gnaeus.Silvanus

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I think the word dictatorship of the devs should be stricken out because it is misused. What Mr. Woo should have used is "discretion" to account responsibly on the inclusion of community feedback. The word dictatorship is very strong and arrogant. Just my two cents.

#284
Fexelea

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Well, I have no way of telling how people feel besides their postings, and most of the posts are pointing towards the remarks being "condescending", which implies people are upset about HOW he said not WHAT he said.



And it was clumsy, at least from a PR perspective: he let an emotion take hold of his reponse, generalizing when he should have specified, and effectively "stirring the pot" instead of ending the discussion by chosing more professional terminology and a colder approach.

#285
senojones

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"Dictatorship" was the wrong choice of words. Making a clear difference between game development and the final product would of helped.



It may have not been intended to be offensive, but it was to all experienced gamers that actually give a damn about being apart of a great game.

#286
Maria Caliban

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ME 1 sex scenes > Dragon Age sex scenes. I haven't seen any of the ME 2 sex scenes as I haven't mananged to make a DudeShep yet.

#287
Bass of Spades

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pacer90 wrote...

I'm shocked people care so much about this.


I'm not. The average gamer is practically driven by their sex drive (hence the many, many, dirty jokes so abundant among gamer kind).

What I thought when I found out there weren't any "sex scenes" in ME2: "Okay, whatever." Then again, I'm not a sex-hungry porno-fiend like everyone who wants sex scenes in ME2.

They are not needed for the game to be immersive and entertaining. Just like the myriad of other things people seem to be demanding (gay romance options for example)

Modifié par Bass of Spades, 08 février 2010 - 06:49 .


#288
Khavos

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Gnaeus.Silvanus wrote...

I think the word dictatorship of the devs should be stricken out because it is misused. What Mr. Woo should have used is "discretion" to account responsibly on the inclusion of community feedback. The word dictatorship is very strong and arrogant. Just my two cents.


The whole point is that it was not misused.  Not even remotely.

Unless you are on the development team, you do not decide what goes into the game.  Period.  You can suggest, beg, plead, and threaten all you want, but they make the decisions, not you.  They can incorporate your ideas or not.  As stated, it is not a collaborative effort. 

I really don't get your side of this. 

#289
Toastysoul

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Khavos wrote...

Toastysoul wrote...

A hero? That's drinking the kool-aid a little much don't you think? A good employee perhaps, but I wouldn't extend that too far given the context in which he became directly named and involved in this discussion (i.e. so quoted "Dictoatorship" and "Immature fan" comments). Not everyone cares about superbowl Sunday either. I spent my time playing ME2. ;)



I don't think it's drinking any sort of kool-aid, no.  I don't particularly like ME2 all that much, and I'm not a big fan of Bioware to begin with.


If you don't like ME or Bioware, why are you here exactly?

Khavos wrote...

But the number of people getting their panties in a twist over the (apparent) revelation that it's the developers and not the fans who decide what goes into a game is absurd, and the guy's taking the time to actually bother addressing it.  I'd roll my eyes and let the delusions go unchecked, were I him. 



Feel free to do that yourself then and leave the discussion to interested parties. You sound like a Bethesda Soft employee. That is how they handle things on their forums, and it's partly why I'm not buying FO:NV. How Bioware handles their forums is partly why I'm buying ME3 regardless of this fiasco.

He's taking the time to address responses directed at him because of statements he made previously. Hardly anything but self-interest. Funny though, I didn't read a single person up in arms because they specifically didn't get asked what to include before the game was released. What I've been reading sounds more like people upset over the choices the dictators developers made. Who are you to judge anyone for being upset over what was or was not included in the game? If Bioware doesn't like the criticism and feedback, they can and will lock the thread. Thankfully, we aren't buying games from you.

I do like Bioware, and I have all of their games (save Jade empire & DA:O) stretch back to BG, & IWD. I also like both ME1 & ME2.

Bass of Spades wrote...

What
I thought when I found out there weren't any "sex scenes" in ME2:
"Okay, whatever." Then again, I'm not a sex-hungry porno-fiend like
everyone who wants sex scenes in ME2.


Troll.

Modifié par Toastysoul, 08 février 2010 - 06:52 .


#290
Khavos

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senojones wrote...

"Dictatorship" was the wrong choice of words. Making a clear difference between game development and the final product would of helped.

It may have not been intended to be offensive, but it was to all experienced gamers that actually give a damn about being apart of a great game.


You keep bringing up this difference between development and the final product, and I have no idea what you're driving at.  

At what point in the development cycle are gamers, experienced or not, making any decisions about how to develop the game?

#291
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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Maria Caliban wrote...

ME 1 sex scenes > Dragon Age sex scenes. I haven't seen any of the ME 2 sex scenes as I haven't mananged to make a DudeShep yet.


ME 1 sex scenes > Dragon Age > ME 2 sex scenes pretty much.

#292
DIRTDIVER32318019

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It is funny how many people do notagree on how bioware took on these scenes. I don't care if there is nudity in the game or anything like I've sai before I enjoyed the game a lot and to me is possibly my number 1 game and would tell anyone to buy it because it is just fantasical lol. But the fact that people are upset about it I can also see why. Some gamers expect a step up from it's first. Knowing how ME1 was with the scenes people possibly expected a step up and expected some type of nudity. Now I'm not defending the people who say it should be in the game just stating my opinion.

#293
Khavos

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Toastysoul wrote...

If you don't like ME or Bioware, why are you here exactly?


There's comedy gold in these here hills.

Feel free to do that yourself then and leave the discussion to interested parties. You sound like a Bethesda Soft employee. That is how they handle things on their forums, and it's partly why I'm not buying FO:NV. How Bioware handles their forums is partly why I'm buying ME3 regardless of this fiasco.


FO:NV, the game being developed by Obsidian Entertainment?

What I've been reading sounds more like people upset over the choices the dictators developers made. Who are you to judge anyone for being upset over what was or was not included in the game?


You're perfectly free to be upset over the choices the developers made.  I don't like a lot of them myself.  What do you want him/them to say?  People are pissed they didn't get alien sideboob.  The response?  "Sorry, but we chose not to play it that way.  We're the developers, we can decide that, and we did."  That's about as cut and dry as it gets.  They've stated they're not going to include nudity for the sake of including nudity, and that they're not going to bow to a subset of fans' demands on this one.  The horse appears to be dead, and yet you are still beating it, not to mention getting upset with the guy who pointed out that it was dead in the first place. 

#294
senojones

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Khavos wrote...

You keep bringing up this difference between development and the final product, and I have no idea what you're driving at.  

At what point in the development cycle are gamers, experienced or not, making any decisions about how to develop the game?


An experienced gamer isn't directly making the the final decisions to a game, they can help provide valuable opinions and ideas through experience to help mold a developers final choice to a game. Also when I say experienced, that also means being exceptionally good at that specific game.

Modifié par senojones, 08 février 2010 - 06:59 .


#295
Khavos

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senojones wrote...

An experienced gamer isn't directly making the the final decisions to a game, they can help provide valuable opinions and ideas through experience to help mold a developers final choice to a game.


And Woo didn't say otherwise. 

(e) He did say that the developers get the final call on what goes into a game.  They're under no obligation to listen to experienced gamers and their valuable opinions. 

Modifié par Khavos, 08 février 2010 - 06:59 .


#296
Gnaeus.Silvanus

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What's the point in asking the community if you are not going to use this as a guide and insist on what the devs and writers intend to do?

#297
Khavos

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Gnaeus.Silvanus wrote...

What's the point in asking the community if you are not going to use this as a guide and insist on what the devs and writers intend to do?


That's like asking, "What's the point of opinion polling in American politics?"  Sometimes a politician will be willing to concede to the masses, sometimes not.  The decision is theirs to make, not the public's. 

#298
Gnaeus.Silvanus

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Khavos wrote...

Gnaeus.Silvanus wrote...

What's the point in asking the community if you are not going to use this as a guide and insist on what the devs and writers intend to do?


That's like asking, "What's the point of opinion polling in American politics?"  Sometimes a politician will be willing to concede to the masses, sometimes not.  The decision is theirs to make, not the public's. 


Now that's illogical. In politics, public opinion is vital and deviating from that path is counter-productive and outright dictatorial. lol

#299
Khavos

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Gnaeus.Silvanus wrote...

Now that's illogical. In politics, public opinion is vital and deviating from that path is counter-productive and outright dictatorial. lol


It's a very good thing a lot of politicians in the 60s disagreed with you, else the civil rights movement would've been considerably delayed. 

Modifié par Khavos, 08 février 2010 - 07:05 .


#300
Vlainstrike

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ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

Apparently people do that a lot.

They expected an inventory system, they expected the same character development system they expected armour for your party members.  It seems that the community does a whole lot of "expecting" and then a whole lot of "****ing" when their expectations turn out to be invalid.


Damn straight we expect alot - call it customer prerogative.  I would have been equally disappointed if the combat or story sucked, or if they turned the game into a 2d sidescroller.

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...
Would the ME2 sex scenes really be improved with Turian genitalia and the removal of Jack's nipple-covering shoulder straps? 

For you? Apparently not.
But, unlike you, I can accept that some people don't think the scenes could be improved with nudity, and that very well may be true for you.  But for me, and a lot of other people who view the sex scenes & follow up dialogue as a critical component related to the ultimate fulfillment of the overall romance subplot experience, yes... yes they would be improved with a realistic expression of sex rather than a 'fade to black'. We all experience and interact with various art forms in our own way, and for you to try to deny what others might experience to be true for them is quite frankly - insulting. 

A similar argument could be made for blood spatter -
Is blood splatter necessary to have a good game? No.
Could some people perceive the inclusion of blood splatter as a critical element which improves the game because they appreciate the realism? Yes.
Could still others perceive the inclusion of blood splatter as harmful to the game somehow? Of course.

You better believe though, that if you create a new video game franchise where one of the defining elements is blood & gore, and follow up with a sequel completely bereft of those elements, the community supporting that franchise is gonna sound off with a huge 'WTF?'

 

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

 It seems to me that people want nudity for two main reasons and neither of which actually benefit the game.

1. Controversy. People want Bioware to be "progressive" and include elements like homosexual relationships and nudity in their games.
2. Immature desire to see boobs.  It's why we see all these nudity mods for games like Oblivion, Dragon Age and Fallout 3.  In fact, they're usually the first mods we see crop up.  It's not about immersion or about "maturity" at all.

This argument is what we call the false dilemma, which suggests there are only two possible reasons people want nudity, when in fact there are several more.  Many of those reasons have been expressed throughout multiple threads on this topic. To dismiss those reasons, by making broadstoke assumptions that any desire to see the inclusion of sexual elements stems from immaturity or controversy, just reveals your refusal to acknowledge other people's opinions and take them at their word regarding their express motivations. Who the hell are you to tell me that my motivation has nothing to do with immersion? 

Some of us might actually have compounded reasons for wanting nudity - I like it both for realistic immersion into the storytelling, and because I think it's 'hot'.  Your argument fails, by equating a desire to see boobs with immaturity - as I've mentioned earlier, I hope I never become so 'mature' that I stop liking boobs.  Sexual attraction and arousal through visual stimulation is part of what makes us human.   So when you have a game like Mass Effect, a game that otherwise seems to pride itself on accurate depictions of human/alien behavior on the most difficult & controversial topics (ie. slavery, drugs, child abuse, police brutality, racism, etc...), blatantly shy away from sex, it begs the question... why?  Why the inconsistency?

Finally, your argument is outright offensive to any homosexuals out there who simply want to see their demographic represented in the games they buy.

Modifié par Vlainstrike, 08 février 2010 - 07:08 .