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Nudity Criticisms--BioWare Condescends. This Means You, Mr. Woo


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#301
Gnaeus.Silvanus

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Khavos wrote...

Gnaeus.Silvanus wrote...

Now that's illogical. In politics, public opinion is vital and deviating from that path is counter-productive and outright dictatorial. lol


It's a very good thing a lot of politicians in the 60s disagreed with you, else the civil rights movement would've been considerably delayed. 


All your statements are contradictory to what you are trying to say. Although this is already going too far from the topic, the civil rights movement you are trying to use was a tool for public opinion and politicians have used this to change their policies, not the other way around.

Modifié par Gnaeus.Silvanus, 08 février 2010 - 07:09 .


#302
senojones

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Khavos wrote...

And Woo didn't say otherwise. 

(e) He did say that the developers get the final call on what goes into a game.  They're under no obligation to listen to experienced gamers and their valuable opinions. 


My point was his wording and context could of been better. They obviously have no obligation to listen, but they should want to. The hard part is being capable of finding that type of gamer among the flood of lesser than average gamers.

Gameplay and balancing issues based on the opinions of experienced players can be used by developers to see how far their game can be pushed, it can greatly help in fine tuning the little things in a game that end up making a big difference.

Modifié par senojones, 08 février 2010 - 07:16 .


#303
asaiasai

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Mr. Woo first let me thank you for your time to discuss this topic with the fans, and I truly think the amount of passionate debate concerning this topic should convey to you the depth we the faithful fans feel towards your art. I am 43 y/o male I have been married for 15 years, while I agree I am not your target audience, I am none the less a fan. You folks at Bioware make great games that challenge the player both in game and in philosophy. I have had some of the most moving discussions concerning the morality of the decisions you force the player, sometimes provoking their ire, to make, that is a good thing. I believe that is why a lot of us come back to Bioware again and again, and why your forums are alive with passionate exchanges.

 
No matter how hard you try the societal leanings will always work its way into the game because that is who WE are. In our society we adorn ourselves in clothing to conveigh status, pride, assert our individuality, protect ourselves from the environment, and to hide our vulnerability. Love is built upon trust, and how two commited people express that trust is by how vulnerable we will allow ourselves to be when with that person, both emotionally and physically. The love scene in ME hit that mark in a tasteful, artistic way that allowed the player to feel the shared vulnerability of the two characters. The tasteful depiction with the partial nudity WAS necessary to truly express the depth of feeling that exchange of vulnerability these two characters shared.

 
The story changed in ME2, the LI was no longer avaliable for the PC to confide in and be vulnerable with. The LI in ME2 was portrayed more as a diversion, a relief from the stresses of command. You changed the story, you took the PC’s shelter away, and in doing so changed the nature of the liaison from a sharing of vulnerability to a more casual animalistic exchange for stress relief, a “booty call” if you will, and I think that is what has folks perturbed. Not so much that you changed the story but that you failed to accurately depict that change with the scene. The scene should have more closely mimicked “Nine and a Half Weeks” with Mickey Rourke and Michelle Pheiffer, for example. I am not calling for full blown out porno, although I will go as far as your willing to go with it, even at extra cost, I think I speak for quite few of us in that we feel like you were pressured by outside forces to tone down the controversy this time, and to a degree feel betrayed by it.

 
We support your art because we understand what art truly is, freedom of expression of both the artist and the viewer. Art is supposed to provoke an emotional response, no one has said what that response has to be, awe or revulsion, in either case the artist has done their job. We buy your games because we want to be challenged, physically, emotionally, and philosophically. We buy your games because your company IS different, it is where we can get a more mature experience, where I can get a more mature experience.

 
I will agree game design is a dictatorship, and your are the king in your kingdom. I am also a king in my financial kingdom and it is also a dictatorship in that I will spend my money on what I choose. This by no means is a threat just a reminder of proper perspective, you NEED me but I CHOOSE you. All dictatorships function by the leave of a powerbase, in this kingdom, your kingdom, WE the fans are your powerbase. We feel we are a part of the game, thanks for letting us in on the process, by listening, discussing, and in some cases granting what we want. We really want you to be true to yourselves, and to us, with out each other life has just become a more mundane experience.

 
Sincerely
Asai

#304
Toastysoul

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Khavos wrote...

Feel free to do that yourself then and leave the discussion to interested parties. You sound like a Bethesda Soft employee. That is how they handle things on their forums, and it's partly why I'm not buying FO:NV. How Bioware handles their forums is partly why I'm buying ME3 regardless of this fiasco.


FO:NV, the game being developed by Obsidian Entertainment?

What I've been reading sounds more like people upset over the choices the dictators developers made. Who are you to judge anyone for being upset over what was or was not included in the game?


You're perfectly free to be upset over the choices the developers made.  I don't like a lot of them myself.  What do you want him/them to say?  People are pissed they didn't get alien sideboob.  The response?  "Sorry, but we chose not to play it that way.  We're the developers, we can decide that, and we did."  That's about as cut and dry as it gets.  They've stated they're not going to include nudity for the sake of including nudity, and that they're not going to bow to a subset of fans' demands on this one.  The horse appears to be dead, and yet you are still beating it, not to mention getting upset with the guy who pointed out that it was dead in the first place. 


I didn't actually know that FO:NV was being developed by Obsidian. Given KotoR 2, which I did buy, I'm still not likely to purchase FO:NV, so that changes nothing.

Right, so I guess the fan base that is bothered by this should just what exactly? Go away? Nobody should say anything because it's done and that's that, eh? Not at all like including invasive DRM. I mean, the community should have just walked away from that one. It was already in ME1, and that's that. Talking back to the developers did absolutely nothing for that, not in 75 pages of posts. Or wait....it's not in ME2. Gah! Who knew that having a discussion about something a subset of fans demand would actually have results? You act like you don't care, and yet still you are arguing against those of us that do. At least the people that are voicing their complaints are honest about their motives. Why you are still here is a mystery. The only people beating a dead horse are the ones who come in here claiming "Not to get it". It's like the old Washington post ad, if you don't get it, you don't get it.

#305
Gnaeus.Silvanus

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Well said asai, good point.

#306
Khavos

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Toastysoul wrote...

I didn't actually know that FO:NV was being developed by Obsidian. Given KotoR 2, which I did buy, I'm still not likely to purchase FO:NV, so that changes nothing.

Right, so I guess the fan base that is bothered by this should just what exactly? Go away? Nobody should say anything because it's done and that's that, eh? Not at all like including invasive DRM. I mean, the community should have just walked away from that one. It was already in ME1, and that's that. Talking back to the developers did absolutely nothing for that, not in 75 pages of posts. Or wait....it's not in ME2. Gah! Who knew that having a discussion about something a subset of fans demand would actually have results? You act like you don't care, and yet still you are arguing against those of us that do. At least the people that are voicing their complaints are honest about their motives. Why you are still here is a mystery. The only people beating a dead horse are the ones who come in here claiming "Not to get it". It's like the old Washington post ad, if you don't get it, you don't get it.


You either intentionally misread what I said or simply didn't understand.  You're perfectly free to keep on voicing your complaints.  Woo said they're perfectly free to ignore them or take them into account if they want to.  That, of course, as indicated by the title, is what this thread is about.  There are plenty of other "Things you don't like about ME2" threads.  This one, specifically, is about the fact that a bunch of gamers didn't like being told that, lo and behold, it's the game designers that make game design decisions.  

#307
Toastysoul

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Khavos, the dead horse analogy you used clearly indicates your position in this discussion. There is no misunderstanding. My point is that it takes 75 pages to get their attention on a topic. Thank you for contributing to pages 12 & 13. ;)



You can't distill this thread to just a complaint about who makes the design choices. Certainly I wasn't complaining about who made the choice, only the choice that was made. The misunderstanding is on your end.

#308
Vlainstrike

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Very well said Asai :)
I agree wholeheartedly.

Modifié par Vlainstrike, 08 février 2010 - 07:25 .


#309
Fexelea

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Khavos wrote...

Toastysoul wrote...


You either intentionally misread what I said or simply didn't understand.  You're perfectly free to keep on voicing your complaints.  Woo said they're perfectly free to ignore them or take them into account if they want to.  That, of course, as indicated by the title, is what this thread is about.  There are plenty of other "Things you don't like about ME2" threads.  This one, specifically, is about the fact that a bunch of gamers didn't like being told that, lo and behold, it's the game designers that make game design decisions.  


No. As indicated by the title, this thread is about the MANNER in which Woo chose to express himself, which has been interpreted as condescending by many forumites.

#310
Matt VT Schlo

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This thread is a true embarassment. I pity the young, very naive, very immature board member that started this thread. Dont want to be treated 'stupid'. Dont want to be treated like a child is more like it.

Do people have nothing better to do, than to create controversy out of thin air?

I expect an apology from the board member that has wasted out board space with this dribble.

Modifié par Matt VT Schlo, 08 février 2010 - 07:30 .


#311
Khavos

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Fexelea wrote...

No. As indicated by the title, this thread is about the MANNER in which Woo chose to express himself, which has been interpreted as condescending by many forumites.


And I still need someone to explain to me what's condescending about telling people that make no design decisions that they make no design decisions.  

#312
Khavos

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Toastysoul wrote...

Khavos, the dead horse analogy you used clearly indicates your position in this discussion. There is no misunderstanding. My point is that it takes 75 pages to get their attention on a topic. Thank you for contributing to pages 12 & 13. ;)

You can't distill this thread to just a complaint about who makes the design choices. Certainly I wasn't complaining about who made the choice, only the choice that was made. The misunderstanding is on your end.


See, I actually read the original post, and all the pages after it.  To summarize: "Dictatorship sounds mean!"

#313
Toastysoul

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Folks, don't feed the trolls. There is an attempt to devolve the thread, just stick to your concerns with the game, nevermind the people "demanding appologies or explainations" from other posters.

#314
Fexelea

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Khavos wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

No. As indicated by the title, this thread is about the MANNER in which Woo chose to express himself, which has been interpreted as condescending by many forumites.


And I still need someone to explain to me what's condescending about telling people that make no design decisions that they make no design decisions.  


You are confusing the content of the post with the manner of the post. It is the manner that has been interpreted as condescending.

#315
NeoGuardian86

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i didn't find the romance scenes all that big of a deal.



some of them were really touching (Garrus, and Thane)

I did find them over all very toned down compared to ME1's.

#316
Gnaeus.Silvanus

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Matt VT Schlo wrote...

This thread is a true embarassment. I pity the young, very naive, very immature board member that started this thread. Dont want to be treated 'stupid'. Dont want to be treated like a child is more like it.

Do people have nothing better to do, than to create controversy out of thin air?

I expect an apology from the board member that has wasted out board space with this dribble.


Its not immature to get some clarification on a statement that ignores community feedback. Before replying with such sweeping statements, please learn first what transpired.

#317
Khavos

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Fexelea wrote...

You are confusing the content of the post with the manner of the post. It is the manner that has been interpreted as condescending.


What about the manner was condescending?  The dictatorship analogy? 

I'm genuinely trying to understand this, by the way.  It simply sounds like a case of the truth hurting, which I find a little bizarre.  

#318
Wonderllama4

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hey, I want to some hot girl on girl action as much as the next guy--but you guys are just being too whiny

#319
Khavos

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Gnaeus.Silvanus wrote...

Matt VT Schlo wrote...

This thread is a true embarassment. I pity the young, very naive, very immature board member that started this thread. Dont want to be treated 'stupid'. Dont want to be treated like a child is more like it.

Do people have nothing better to do, than to create controversy out of thin air?

I expect an apology from the board member that has wasted out board space with this dribble.


Its not immature to get some clarification on a statement that ignores community feedback. Before replying with such sweeping statements, please learn first what transpired.


Where was it said that community feedback is ignored?  I've seen Woo go out of his way, several times, to state that community feedback is read and appreciated. 

#320
The Demonologist

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Y'know...



Seems to me like us forum goers really like to overanalyze. Chances are, we reached the answer to most if not all of our questions threads ago, and but for that cursed no confirm/deny rule, we'd certainly know.



Maybe its just the scenes I've seen, but they -still- seem no less... tasteful or good this time around. I'll report back upon completion of Miranda and Jack loveplots ((SInce thats where the complaining seems to be)

#321
John Hyperion

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The dictatorship line is one of the dumbest things I've read, especially considering it was posted on a fan feedback forum for a sequel game that had obvious modifications due to fan feedback. It's a dumb thing to say about any product, at least ones you expect people to keep paying for with more sequels and DLC.

The fact that Miranda and Moriggan suddenly discover bras before a love scene? It's silly and makes the game and these supposedly emotional moments look silly. People aren't asking for porn, just to maintain a sense of realism when you have the means (i.e. an M rating) to do so.

#322
Khavos

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John Hyperion wrote...

The dictatorship line is one of the dumbest things I've read, especially considering it was posted on a fan feedback forum for a sequel game that had obvious modifications due to fan feedback. It's a dumb thing to say about any product, at least ones you expect people to keep paying for with more sequels and DLC.


Which is exactly why I don't get the uproar over this non-issue.  Bioware took feedback and chose to make changes based on it.  People appear to be butthurt over the fact that Bioware won't say, "We didn't decide to do this.  You did.  You CHANGED THE GAME outside of our control.  Well done."  All they've said is that they listen to feedback, but they ultimately decide the design of the game.  The fact that people have an issue with that - or, delving into the realm of even less sanity, the way it was said - is beyond me.

The fact that Miranda and Moriggan suddenly discover bras before a love scene? It's silly and makes the game and these supposedly emotional moments look silly. People aren't asking for porn, just to maintain a sense of realism when you have the means (i.e. an M rating) to do so.


Add it to the long, long list of realism-lacking aspects of ME2.  But don't expect it back.  If you think all of the Fox News'/various conservative commentators' bull**** regarding the "alien sex simulator" Mass Effect didn't get to them, you're crazy.  Of course they bowed to external pressure.  And of course they're not going to admit it. 

Modifié par Khavos, 08 février 2010 - 07:50 .


#323
Vlainstrike

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well put John Hyperion

#324
NeoGuardian86

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John Hyperion wrote...

The dictatorship line is one of the dumbest things I've read, especially considering it was posted on a fan feedback forum for a sequel game that had obvious modifications due to fan feedback. It's a dumb thing to say about any product, at least ones you expect people to keep paying for with more sequels and DLC.

The fact that Miranda and Moriggan suddenly discover bras before a love scene? It's silly and makes the game and these supposedly emotional moments look silly. People aren't asking for porn, just to maintain a sense of realism when you have the means (i.e. an M rating) to do so.


who knows they might take a page out of how Heavy Rain deals with nudity and hold on to it's M rating...

#325
Mister Mage

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John Hyperion wrote...

The dictatorship line is one of the dumbest things I've read, especially considering it was posted on a fan feedback forum for a sequel game that had obvious modifications due to fan feedback. It's a dumb thing to say about any product, at least ones you expect people to keep paying for with more sequels and DLC.

It's true, it's not a dictatorship.

It's more like an oligarchy.

Yes, there is a vote.  We don't have one, though.  We can voice concerns, we can make requests.  When it comes down to it, though, it's not fan desire VS Bioware.  Bioware will, in the end, make the game they want to make.  They will make compromises.  They will make a game that has a wide appeal, because this is a big budget game that needs to sell a lot of copies to make an investment return, they will make some concessions to fan demand on smaller matters and maybe even a couple larger ones so that more people will enjoy the game.  They will have to make compromises due to resources like time, money, and technology.  EA probably has some level of say, though how much, on what things, and how often and strongly they employ this influence is not something you can know from the outside.

Despite all this, though, they will make a decision amongst themselves.  Bioware is a group that, in the end, gets the final say.  Fans don't get to say "You MUST do this".  Paying $60 for something that has millions invested in it does not give you a right to bully the creators, or to say that what you want overrides what the developers decide to do.  Even if it makes their game unpopular, their decisions on how to spend their resources and make them into entertainment are theirs alone.

Bioware gets first and final say.  What they take into consideration and what they compromise is their business.