793 réponses à ce sujet

[The Demonologist]

So it's a psuedo-democracy!



I feel more at home already.

[John Hyperion]

Khavos wrote...

Which is exactly why I don't get the uproar over this non-issue.

The issue is Mr. Woo saying something utterly absurd and obviously not remotely true or in any way connected to reality and in such a way that makes me not want to ever spend another dime on a Bioware game. Just because someone is saying something that is non-true that doesn't mean it's a non-issue (see: Sarah Palin).

Add it to the long, long list of realism-lacking aspects of ME2.

The list should be getting shorter, not longer. This is obvious.

If you think all of the Fox News'/various conservative commentators' bull**** regarding the "alien sex simulator" Mass Effect didn't get to them, you're crazy.  Of course they bowed to external pressure.  And of course they're not going to admit it. 

I expect cowardice and dishonesty from Fox News commentators', not the people attacked by them. Have some guts, don't back down to those scum, and you don't go making excuses for people who do back down to them. Fox News is only so powerful because people let them be and don't call them on their crap.

Modifié par John Hyperion, 08 février 2010 - 08:02 .

[asaiasai]

Khavos wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

You are confusing the content of the post with the manner of the post. It is the manner that has been interpreted as condescending.

What about the manner was condescending?  The dictatorship analogy? 

I'm genuinely trying to understand this, by the way.  It simply sounds like a case of the truth hurting, which I find a little bizarre.  

It is because your are not getting it, either because you can't or are just being obtuse.

This is a quote from a post i made earlier that should explain to you why the dictatorship analogy is fail.

"I will agree game design is a dictatorship, and your are the king in your kingdom. I am also a king in my financial kingdom and it is also a dictatorship in that I will spend my money on what I choose. This by no means is a threat just a reminder of proper perspective, you NEED me but I CHOOSE you. All dictatorships function by the leave of a powerbase, in this kingdom, your kingdom, WE the fans are your powerbase. We feel we are a part of the game, thanks for letting us in on the process, by listening, discussing, and in some cases granting what we want. We really want you to be true to yourselves, and to us, with out each other life has just become a more mundane experience. "

If this does not explain why i and the rest of us who are actually contributing to the conversation are here then you will never understand it. Understanding something but disagreeing with it is ok, provided you of course can articulate you disagreement, but to have your mouth open and your mind closed contribute nothing constructive to the discussion.

Asai

Modifié par asaiasai, 08 février 2010 - 08:05 .

[Khavos]

John Hyperion wrote...

The issue is Mr. Woo saying something utterly absurd and obviously not remotely true or in any way connected to reality and in such a way that makes me not want to ever spend another dime on a Bioware game. Just because someone is saying that something is not true that doesn't mean it's a non-issue (see: Sarah Palin).

Except what he said is true.  You do not make design decisions.  The development team makes design decisions.

Seriously, how is that not true? 

I expect cowardice and dishonesty from Fox News commentators', not the people attacked by them. Have some guts, don't back down to those scum, and you don't go making excuses for people who do back down to them. Fox News is only so powerful because people let them be and don't call them on their crap.

Bioware did in fact call them on their crap at the time.  They're in business to make money, however, not take stands against The Man or anyone else.  If removing alien sideboob seemed like it would let them sell more games, then yeah, they're going to remove alien sideboob.

[Mordaedil]

Internet is serious business and you hurt my feelings.

[John Hyperion]

Mister Mage wrote...

Bioware will, in the end, make the game they want to make.  They will make compromises.  They will make a game that has a wide appeal, because this is a big budget game that needs to sell a lot of copies to make an investment return, they will make some concessions to fan demand on smaller matters and maybe even a couple larger ones so that more people will enjoy the game.  They will have to make compromises due to resources like time, money, and technology.  EA probably has some level of say, though how much, on what things, and how often and strongly they employ this influence is not something you can know from the outside.

I hope you realize that first sentence says the exact opposite of what the rest of the paragraph says, right? That what Mr. Woo has said directly contradicts countless statements made by other members of Bioware (and every single game developer ever, at least the ones who like to stay in business and sell games). It's a silly, silly, silly statement especially in this day and age. He might has well have claimed ME's mechanics weren't influenced by Gears of War.

[John Hyperion]

Khavos wrote...

Bioware did in fact call them on their crap at the time.  They're in business to make money, however, not take stands against The Man or anyone else.  If removing alien sideboob seemed like it would let them sell more games, then yeah, they're going to remove alien sideboob.

1. How did it sell more games?
2. I thought Bioware was a dictatorship? A dictatorship who bends to the whims of 5 minute tabloid segments from 3 years ago?

[N7R C7]

I don't know why everyone cares so much about the romance scenes, they are so short and like .0001% of the scenes in the game. I didn't buy ME2 to romance a character, I got it for the story and cinematic feel.

[Khavos]

asaiasai wrote...

If this does not explain why i and the rest of us who are actually contributing to the conversation are here then you will never understand it. Understanding something but disagreeing with it is ok, provided you of course can articulate you disagreement, but to have your mouth open and your mind closed contribute nothing constructive to the discussion.

Asai

Your argument boils down to, "Bioware needs people to buy the game."  That's true.  And they're aware of that.  It does not change the fact that the people buying the game do not make design decisions on said game.  They decide if they want to purchase the game or not once it's finished, nothing more.

The game designer can choose to listen to the consumer's opinions or not.  Bioware will doubtlessly incorporate feedback it's received on ME2 into ME3, but which suggestions they choose to make use of, and in what form, is entirely up to them.

That's it.  That's all he said.  You seem to be searching for some acknowledgement that you play a vitally important role in the design of the game.  You don't.  They've said - and Woo in particular has said - countless times that they appreciate the community feedback, which is why the operate these forums and let us bash their games to death in the first place.  But they're not about to cede creative control to the fans.

[Khavos]

John Hyperion wrote...

Khavos wrote...

Bioware did in fact call them on their crap at the time.  They're in business to make money, however, not take stands against The Man or anyone else.  If removing alien sideboob seemed like it would let them sell more games, then yeah, they're going to remove alien sideboob.

1. How did it sell more games?
2. I thought Bioware was a dictatorship? A dictatorship who bends to the whims of 5 minute tabloid segments from 3 years ago?

1.  I have no idea if it did or not.  I also have no idea if that was their reason for removing alien sideboob.  I suspect it was, but either way, it's irrelevant.  It's a decision they made or that was made for them by their publisher.
2.  Bioware's not a dictatorship, no.  Game design is.  If you can point to a design decision that you or any other fan made in place of Bioware, though, I'll retract that statement.  

[AudioEpics]

N7R C7 wrote...

I don't know why everyone cares so much about the romance scenes, they are so short and like .0001% of the scenes in the game. I didn't buy ME2 to romance a character, I got it for the story and cinematic feel.

I agree 100% with you here. I wasn't aware that there was any issue with this topic until I stumbled on this thread. 
Honestly, it's a sci-fi epic, not an interactive erotic movie or whatever. If the romance is well told, do you really need nudity to seal the deal? Do these things really matter at all? I don't think so. 

[pedal2metal]

ME1 did not have any meaningful sex scenes. It was titillating but nothing more. I thought it was well done & so was ME2. I just don't get it. If you want more t/a, go spend some time with your wife or girlfriend. If you can't get a real woman, maybe you need to step back & re-evaluate your life. Geez... Bioware is focused on what matters, the actual story & gameplay. They aren't in the business of providing those with no real sex life with a virtual substitute. You've already got the Internet serving that market. I find it funny people are getting all up in arms over this... As my grandmother used to say, sometimes you just have to consider the source.

[Collider]

ITT: People exaggerating. I stand with Mr. Woo.

[Vlainstrike]

N7R C7 wrote...

I don't know why everyone cares so much about the romance scenes, they are so short and like .0001% of the scenes in the game. I didn't buy ME2 to romance a character, I got it for the story and cinematic feel.

Romance is part of the story, and a lot of the reason people are complaining is because that part of the story was so short and lacked the same cinematic quality given to the rest of the game. 

[pedal2metal]

AudioEpics wrote...

N7R C7 wrote...

I don't know why everyone cares so much about the romance scenes, they are so short and like .0001% of the scenes in the game. I didn't buy ME2 to romance a character, I got it for the story and cinematic feel.

I agree 100% with you here. I wasn't aware that there was any issue with this topic until I stumbled on this thread. 
Honestly, it's a sci-fi epic, not an interactive erotic movie or whatever. If the romance is well told, do you really need nudity to seal the deal? Do these things really matter at all? I don't think so. 

Well-said on both counts.  Those that are whining about this are really hard-up.  They can't get any real woman, don't have an internet connection to get their porn fix, & probably live in their parent's basements.  If I want some t/a I just go find my wife & before I got married, my girlfriend.  Sex is NOT why I play games & those that do, need to re-evaluate their lives, not whine in a forum about how Bioware isn't meeting their sexual needs.  That's so pathetic it's almost scary...

[Vlainstrike]

AudioEpics wrote...

N7R C7 wrote...

I don't know why everyone cares so much about the romance scenes, they are so short and like .0001% of the scenes in the game. I didn't buy ME2 to romance a character, I got it for the story and cinematic feel.

I agree 100% with you here. I wasn't aware that there was any issue with this topic until I stumbled on this thread. 
Honestly, it's a sci-fi epic, not an interactive erotic movie or whatever. If the romance is well told, do you really need nudity to seal the deal? Do these things really matter at all? I don't think so. 

That's fine if they don't matter to you, but it obviously matters to some... it matters to a great number of people actually, as evidenced by the multiple lengthy threads on the topic.

Need nudity? No, I don't need it, but it can be argued that it can influence the quality of the story telling.

[Mister Mage]

John Hyperion wrote...
I hope you realize that first sentence says the exact opposite of what the rest of the paragraph says, right? That what Mr. Woo has said directly contradicts countless statements made by other members of Bioware (and every single game developer ever, at least the ones who like to stay in business and sell games). It's a silly, silly, silly statement especially in this day and age. He might has well have claimed ME's mechanics weren't influenced by Gears of War.

No, it doesn't.

Yes, from a practical standpoint they will make compromises and concessions.  This is because Mass Effect is Mass Media, not high art.  Bioware is not an indie studio, their budget is so obscenely large that they do have to sell an equivocally obscene amount of games to make back the cost and get a worthwhile profit.

However, they get final say on what concessions they decide to make.  They decide what to push for personal artistic vision.  If they don't make the concession you want them to, then you by all means CAN make a fuss about it.  But 1 or even 20 sales in terms of a couple million(and counting) aren't really going to make a large difference, and that's all the effect I could really see this making.  Gameplay concerns and overall story tone issues could be serious, but the minute specifics of how Bioware handles less than a quarter of a minute of footage is a great deal less likely to prohibit sales(at least on the "safe" side of the equation).  In this way, they really can afford to ****** off a few people that in all likelihood will buy the next game anyway(and on launch day, no less).

[Vlainstrike]

pedal2metal wrote...Well-said on both counts.  Those that are whining about this are really hard-up.  They can't get any real woman, don't have an internet connection to get their porn fix, & probably live in their parent's basements.  If I want some t/a I just go find my wife & before I got married, my girlfriend.  Sex is NOT why I play games & those that do, need to re-evaluate their lives, not whine in a forum about how Bioware isn't meeting their sexual needs.  That's so pathetic it's almost scary...

Perfect example of someone who completely misunderstands the entire issue and who thinks the every expression of sex & nudity automatically equals porn.

Modifié par Vlainstrike, 08 février 2010 - 08:29 .

[senojones]

Khavos wrote...

Which is exactly why I don't get the uproar over this non-issue.  Bioware took feedback and chose to make changes based on it.  People appear to be butthurt over the fact that Bioware won't say, "We didn't decide to do this.  You did.  You CHANGED THE GAME outside of our control.  Well done."  All they've said is that they listen to feedback, but they ultimately decide the design of the game.  The fact that people have an issue with that - or, delving into the realm of even less sanity, the way it was said - is beyond me.

"Game development is not a collaborative effort between developers and gamers; it is a dictatorship, where we alone determine what content goes into our game."

At what point in that statement do you get any sort of "we value a gamers feedback"? This has nothing to do with our right to dictate how a game is created, it has to do with respecting the value of influence a gamers constructive opinion can have in making a developers final decision.

Its ultimately their choice, noone can deny that. But if they do in fact value a gamers constructive opinion on a specific issue and choose to push in that direction instead of their own, the development of the game has now become a collaborative effort between developers and gamers.

Modifié par senojones, 08 février 2010 - 08:32 .

[The Demonologist]

Meh. IF we know it to be true, and they know it to be true, why does it matter if Mr. Woo may have misspoke/mistyped or whatever? We all get it.

[Kurokenshi]

pedal2metal wrote...

Well-said on both counts.  Those that are whining about this are really hard-up.  They can't get any real woman, don't have an internet connection to get their porn fix, & probably live in their parent's basements.  If I want some t/a I just go find my wife & before I got married, my girlfriend.  Sex is NOT why I play games & those that do, need to re-evaluate their lives, not whine in a forum about how Bioware isn't meeting their sexual needs.  That's so pathetic it's almost scary...

Here you go have cookie for totally irrelevent comments. I find it hard to believe your married with your obvious stereotypical outlook on life!

I don't care if the there is or isn't nudity in the game. I do however have an issue with Mr.Woo's response to the topic.

[The Demonologist]

Kurokenshi wrote...

pedal2metal wrote...

Well-said on both counts.  Those that are whining about this are really hard-up.  They can't get any real woman, don't have an internet connection to get their porn fix, & probably live in their parent's basements.  If I want some t/a I just go find my wife & before I got married, my girlfriend.  Sex is NOT why I play games & those that do, need to re-evaluate their lives, not whine in a forum about how Bioware isn't meeting their sexual needs.  That's so pathetic it's almost scary...

Here you go have cookie for totally irrelevent comments. I find it hard to believe your married with your obvious stereotypical outlook on life!

I don't care if the there is or isn't nudity in the game. I do however have an issue with Mr.Woo's response to the topic.

But didn't he do all that apologizing and explaining back there?

Where's the issue now? 

[Khavos]

senojones wrote...

"Game development is not a collaborative effort between developers and gamers; it is a dictatorship, where we alone determine what content goes into our game."

At what point in that statement do you get any sort of "we value a gamers feedback"? This has nothing to do with our right to dictate how a game is created, it has to do with respecting the value of influence a gamers constructive opinion can have in making a developers final decision.

Its ultimately their choice, noone can deny that. But if they do in fact value a gamers constructive opinion on a specific issue and choose to push in that direction instead of their own, the development of the game has now become a collaborative effort between developers and gamers.

No, it hasn't.  If my buddy goes, "Man, you should really open a topless breakfast establishment," and I go out and do it, with no investment cash, no work, and nothing but the suggestion from him, it's not a collaborative effort.  I made the decision to do it, and I made it happen.  

If Bioware even occasionally came by and said, "Hey, we saw this idea on the forums, and we're going with it.  How do you think we should do it?" then you might have an argument.  They don't do that. 

[The Demonologist]

It definitley -is- a collaborative effort in house, though!



"Hey, art guys. A dude on the forums suggested we give Garrus a purple penis. What do you think?"



"I like pink."



"Alright, lets do it."



Whoooooo~

[senojones]

Khavos wrote...

No, it hasn't.  If my buddy goes, "Man, you should really open a topless breakfast establishment," and I go out and do it, with no investment cash, no work, and nothing but the suggestion from him, it's not a collaborative effort.  I made the decision to do it, and I made it happen.  

If Bioware even occasionally came by and said, "Hey, we saw this idea on the forums, and we're going with it.  How do you think we should do it?" then you might have an argument.  They don't do that. 

And if that same friend walked into your topless breakfast establishment, and started giving you more ideas of how to make your new investment better, and you made the decision to listen, would you still think he has no collaborative effort? Would you deny his influence on making the choice to make this decision when the public asked about it?

If I was that friend, I would punch you in the face.

To respond to your second statement, what do you think this forum is for? Granted the majority of public forums are filled with ignorant people or trolls.

Modifié par senojones, 08 février 2010 - 08:49 .