793 réponses à ce sujet

[Bigeyez]

John Hyperion wrote...

Khavos wrote...

2.  Bioware's not a dictatorship, no.  Game design is.  If you can point to a design decision that you or any other fan made in place of Bioware, though, I'll retract that statement.  

The United States is a dictatorship. If you can point to a decision that you or any other voter made in place of the US government, I'll retract that statement.

You and Mr. Woo should look up what dictatorship means and why people dislike them. It's an asinine term to use, especially coming from someone who probably isn't the one making the big decisions about anything.

Theres plenty. Public referendums, public town hall meetings, and not to mention us voting all our politicians in place. Those are all decisions that we the voters make.

His point was that at the end of the day Developers have the ultimate say in what they do. If they want to put flying cows that shoot purple laser beams into mass effect 3 they will put flying cows into mass effect 3 regardless of what you, me, or random game mag # 37 says/thinks about it.

Is his analogy really that hard to understand? If he had used a word other then dictatorship the statement most likely would have never even raised an eyebrow...

Edit: All I can really say to this thread is What The Sh*t. Things like this are why most developers never comment and join into discussions on their own forums. People will go apesh*t over anything.

Modifié par Bigeyez, 08 février 2010 - 05:29 .

[Stanley Woo]

PilotJoe wrote...
Hence the title of this thread.  This absolutely drips with condescension and disdain.  

edit: As for the anonymity of the internets, the only party here not anonymous is you, Woo, and your company.  I appreciate you taking the time to let us know that wether or not your customers are offended by your disengenuity and full-on mockery is 'no longer your concern'. 

And it seems that without constant reassurance that I am caring and wish to repeat my clarifications and explanations. You are free to be as offended as you like, i cannot stop you from feeling what you feel. I also cannot force you to interpret my statements any differently than you have already interpreted them.

My intention was to stop this thread from exploding in angry, nuclear fire. I have accomplished that. Now, I continue to read the thread in the hopes that folks will actually read and comprehend what has already been said, so that I don't have to stay up until 6 in the morning on one of my days off to clear it up again.

Why do you want to think the worst of me and my intentions when there is evidence that I do care about our community? folks like Khavos and Mister Mage seem to understand exactly what I'm saying, while folks like you and John Hyperion (and the person who was arguing with Khavos in the last couple of pages. I'm sorry, but I can't recall your name) don't. That's fine, but as I said, I don't have the time to deal with it now that it's a weekday and I have a job to do.

Perhaps, if there is still something for me to clear up this evening, I will wade in again. If, on the other hand, people are still just taking exception with my tone or the words I used, or simply choose to ignore what I've already posted in this thread, there really is nothing more that I'm willing to do to "win you over." I am always willing to agree to disagree, however.

EDIT: I'd like to ask that people stop swearing, please. And if you haven't already read through this thread, I highly encourage it. It will help stop the "if you really want to see boobs, the internet is full of them" type arguments. THat's not what this thread is about. Thank you.

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 08 février 2010 - 05:44 .

[John Hyperion]

Bigeyez wrote...

Theres plenty. Public referendums, public town hall meetings, and not to mention us voting all our politicians in place. Those are all decisions that we the voters make.

You mean like how gamers vote with their wallets and are the only reason BioWare, let alone Mass Effect, continue to exist?

His point was that at the end of the day Developers have the ultimate say in what they do.

It's not the "ultimate" say when the devs aren't one homogenious group and they have various people to please including their bosses, the reviewers, the fans and now, apparently, idiots on Fox News.

If they want to put flying cows that shoot purple laser beams into mass effect 3 they will put flying cows into mass effect 3 regardless of what you, me, or random game mag # 37 says/thinks about it.

And the game will fail, lose millions of dollars for its parent company leading people like Mr. Woo to the unemployment line. That'll really be showing us fans who's boss!

If he had used a word other then dictatorship the statement most likely would have never even raised an eyebrow...

You mean if he had said something that made sense instead of something that made no sense then it wouldn't be an issue? I think you're 100% correct.

Things like this are why most developers never comment and join into discussions on their own forums.

I think it shows why, if you're going to join in a discussion, you should be intelligent and honest about it. There's nothing truthful or smart about putting down the value of fan feedback on a fan forum.

Stanley Woo wrote...

Why do you want to think the worst of me and my intentions when there is evidence that I do care about our community?

I'm sure there's plenty of evidence of that like there's plenty of hard evidence that BioWare does not remotely operate like some sovereign dictator above the whims of mere mortal fans. The fact is you tried to paint that, untrue, picture because you thought it was to your rhetorical advantage at the time. You were wrong. Better to admit it than try to rephrase and defend it.

Think of it this way. There's plenty of developers out there who constantly point out how much they love fan feedback and use it to improve the game. Why should I spend money on games made by devs who say the opposite?

Modifié par John Hyperion, 08 février 2010 - 06:09 .

[pedal2metal]

Kurokenshi wrote...

pedal2metal wrote...

Well-said on both counts.  Those that are whining about this are really hard-up.  They can't get any real woman, don't have an internet connection to get their porn fix, & probably live in their parent's basements.  If I want some t/a I just go find my wife & before I got married, my girlfriend.  Sex is NOT why I play games & those that do, need to re-evaluate their lives, not whine in a forum about how Bioware isn't meeting their sexual needs.  That's so pathetic it's almost scary...

Here you go have cookie for totally irrelevent comments. I find it hard to believe your married with your obvious stereotypical outlook on life!

I don't care if the there is or isn't nudity in the game. I do however have an issue with Mr.Woo's response to the topic.

I feel so slighted!  I'm "stereotypical"?  Ouch!  that hurts, that really hurts... 
& that my friend is why I'm married & you're still whining about Mr. Woo who simply stated the facts.  As Jack Nickelson said:  "You can't handle the truth."  This entire thread is pathetic.  As I stated before (other thread maybe), I don't much care about nudity or not so long as it's tasteful (which ME1/ME2 both were) & not forced on the player in any way but always player-initiated even in NPC banter (which ME has always maintained, unlike DAO).

ME2 is a fun game & great experience.  To obsess over 0.00001% of the game (as has stated before by others) tells everyone a great deal about the psychological dysfunction of the people whining about the lack of nudity in this forum.  Thankfully, Bioware has enough sense to "consider the source" & ignore this worthless source of noise.

Regarding whether the customer influences the game development:  Of course we do.  Both through these forums & through our purchases.  Bioware clearly takes fan input into account as evidenced by ME2.  So far, it appears Bioware has done well in that regard so that means we generally like what they are doing & will keep them in business.  But ultimately, yes, the developer decides what to put in or not but we decide if it's going to be profitable or not.  That's our mechanism of control, plain & simple.  So if you don't think ME2 is any good w/o more nudity, then don't buy the game.  If the market agrees with you in large enough numbers, then eventually you'll get your next nudity "fix" in a Bioware game at some point.  Of course, reality will set in when it becomes clear the vast majority of players find ME1 & ME2 both great games & Bioware is making money hand over fist as-is w/o having to worry about nudity one way or the other.  I can't imagine how KOTOR/NWN ever sold in the market w/o nudity?!?  To even think such a thing is possible in the "hip" & "unstereotypical" gaming world is heresy!  Give me a break.  This entire thread is completely baseless.  The sales numbers tell the story.  ME1/ME2 are hits based on the market & that's the ultimate yardstick for any business venture, like it or not.  Oh yeah, I'm sure that's "stereotypical" as well...

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[drkl0rd2000]

SethSteiner wrote...

It`s not about porn. My goddess in Terminator the sex scene was essential for the whole universe but would anyone call Terminator porn? No one would, so why this "watch porn if you want ******!" pops up everytime?

This whole arguement is NOT about nuidity or lack there of in a game. This arguement is about gamers who feel that game companies back peddle or become yes men and compromise their art "the game" by allowing others to dicitate what can be allowed in games. Games to gamers are art, how would artists or those who love painted art like it if a vocal few told them they could never use red again. This is what this whole arguement is about  our perception that the game developers approve of "Censorship"

This arguement is about Games being held on a different level of acceptability than all other forms of media, you can show the all the casual sex you want on primetime soaps like Greys Anatomy and daytime soaps but heaven forbid you put in a tasteful and meaningful scene like the one in Mass Effect 1. That well that is just criminal and immoral and labels the Development team as pervs., never mind the casual gunning down police in GTA cause thats ok!!!

As an experiment in how games are treated different all gamers ban together and demand that daytime soaps are offensive in their casual sex and show of skin and we demand they be censored and all that stuff removed.

Modifié par drkl0rd2000, 08 février 2010 - 06:25 .

[Bigeyez]

John Hyperion wrote...

*snip so this doesn't get hella long.

Your missing the point. We as gamers have no say whatsoever in the design process of a game. Even if the developers walk up to me and ask me what I want in a game it's still up to THEM to include what I said. THATS his point.

Of course a developer wants to make their game to be successful so they do listen to fan feedback, but at the end of the day if they feel that flying cows would make their game better, the game will have flying cows. Whether we buy it or not is something that happens AFTER the game is already done. And yes if they put flying cows into the game and we as consumers all decide this was stupid and the game fails, chances are the next game won't have flying cows, but again thats something that happens after the fact, not during.

As far as your personal comments on Woo you're being a bit one sided aren't you? What about the tons of threads on this and the old forums where he and the other blue posters have joined into discussions and praised their fans? He's all of a sudden a bad guy and horrible evil person because he disagrees with your viewpoints on things?

P.S. I'm obviously referring to "developers" here as the entire company(s), ie Bioware and to an extent their publisher.

Modifié par Bigeyez, 08 février 2010 - 06:15 .

[kaponas]

jpetrey123 wrote...

i dont think you realize just how many of those threads there has been. if you people want nudity look at porn or watch HBO. i mean seriously they are pixels!!!

You clearly don't appreciate RPG's my friend. The argument that it is just pixels is like saying a book is just words.

No one is asking for nudity for the sake of gawking or sexual pleasure. We are asking for it because it's natural part of a romantic relationship and it breaks immersion to see it depicted in such an unnatural manner.

Bioware chose to have romance be an important component in their game (you have to make an effort to avoid it entirely). Don't do romance if the peak of your intimacy is a sex scene that you aren't going to do properly. If they hadnt succesfully accomplished a "proper" sex scene in the first game I would cut them some slack.

[LdyShayna]

drkl0rd2000 wrote...
As an experiment in how games are treated different all gamers ban together and demand that daytime soaps are offensive in their casual sex and show of skin and we demand they be censored and all that stuff removed.

Why do you laugh?  I would vastly prefer that.  Might actually tempt me to watch TV again.

[Legbiter]

kaponas wrote...

 Don't do romance if the peak of your intimacy is a sex scene that you aren't going to do properly. If they hadnt succesfully accomplished a "proper" sex scene in the first game I would cut them some slack.

If the romance conclusion scene isn't floating your boat or dosen't have enough oomph for you to get good paddlework going, well....that's your business.

[Toastysoul]

John Hyperion wrote...

The United States is a
dictatorship. If you can point to a decision that you or any other
voter made in place of the US government, I'll retract that statement.

You
and Mr. Woo should look up what dictatorship means and why people
dislike them. It's an asinine term to use, especially coming from
someone who probably isn't the one making the big decisions about
anything.

Prop. 8 in California. Not exactly a country wide referendum, but we do not live in a dictatorship.

Trying to explain this situation to Khavos is like trying to teach a dog mathmatics. He doesn't want to listen, he only cares about the ball going back and forth.

[Maria Caliban]

LdyShayna wrote...

drkl0rd2000 wrote...
As an experiment in how games are treated different all gamers ban together and demand that daytime soaps are offensive in their casual sex and show of skin and we demand they be censored and all that stuff removed.

Why do you laugh?  I would vastly prefer that.  Might actually tempt me to watch TV again.

If we're talking daytime TV, we might want to also add such elements as 'plot,' 'semi-realistic characters,' and 'resolutions.'

[cerberus1701]

Quote: His point was that at the end of the day Developers have the ultimate say in what they do.

No they don't. They have a LOT of say...the vast majority in fact, but at the end of the day they are just as subject to consumer and market forces as everyone else because it's not just a dozen guys coding in their basements and emailing it back and forth.

Consider this:

Perhaps a developer somewhere has an idea for a WWII RPG where you play as a N**i. Perhaps there's a concentration camp level. Perhaps there's a minigame selecting people for the showers.

Now, it doesn't matter WHY the phantom developer is thinking of this game. Perhaps he/she is racist. Perhaps they want to tell a deep story and be historically accurate.

If you were correct that the developers have the "ultimate say" in what they want to do why will such a game never, ever EVER, see the light of day?

Because they are creating a consumer product. And the vast majority of consumers would never purchase such a game. Indeed, it would almost certainly be financial suicide for any development house to fund it.

To a vastly lesser degree some of this is exemplified by the ME2 preorder armor debacle. (Helmets on/off) The art department built it for themselves and not the players of the game.

Consumers are NOT happy about it. So either this will be fixed by the time ME3 pre-order bonuses are built (As I GUARANTEE that once they are announced the helmets will be the 1st thing asked about) or they will see pre-order sales suffer to some extent. It all will boil down to whether or not those potential lost pre-orders are financially worth letting the art department do as they please.

So, no developers do not have unfettered control of their product. They may work on a very long leash, but they are leashed to some degree all the same.

Modifié par cerberus1701, 08 février 2010 - 07:27 .

[JigPig]

John Hyperion wrote...

If they want to put flying cows that shoot purple laser beams into mass effect 3 they will put flying cows into mass effect 3 regardless of what you, me, or random game mag # 37 says/thinks about it.

And the game will fail, lose millions of dollars for its parent company leading people like Mr. Woo to the unemployment line. That'll really be showing us fans who's boss!

Incorrect. Just look at Modern Warfare 2. The games sucks ass, yet people continue to buy and play it.

[haberman13]

Stanley Woo has been more than fair in this "discussion".   I respect and support Bioware's decision.

Think of the children man, you know some of them are playing this game despite the M rating.  Do you really need nudity in a video game?  Seems odd to me.

[cerberus1701]

haberman13 wrote...

Stanley Woo has been more than fair in this "discussion".   I respect and support Bioware's decision.

Think of the children man, you know some of them are playing this game despite the M rating.  Do you really need nudity in a video game?  Seems odd to me.

An M rating yes, but both are effectively PG-13 films.

After playing both, I'd have no problem ith my teen, perhaps even pre-teen depending on their maturity level playing either game.

[Mordaedil]

John Hyperion wrote...

You'd be correct if everyone thought like you and you were part of the majority on this matter.

As it is, the majority does not care and will not agree with you.

If Bioware makes a design decision that costs them millions, they will learn from that, correct.

So far they are just raking in money, so they are just being taught the lesson that their current course is the correct to take. As are their statements, responding to the few people who come here and complain.

You rabbit.

[TSamee]

To be honest, I really had to ignore every single piece of emotional value in Jack's scene to fully register that we're both fully-clothed, and for it to be annoying. If the scenes were meant to bring out emotion, then BioWare managed it well enough without putting nudity in (at least in Jack's scene).



Don't get me wrong, I'd be cool with nudity if it was put in, and it would give the scenes a more realistic feel, but I'm perfectly fine without at the moment.



Regarding Mr. Woo's (wow... feels awkward writing that) comments on nudity in the game, fine, I'll admit that they could be seen as offensive. But not quite "lashing out at fans" offensive. He made a point that any dev has the right to make, and, to be honest, I just think that the way it was delivered came as a bit of a shock to some fans. And trudging through a sea of forumite crap to explain? Major props to Stanley Woo, people. If anything, this proves that he and hopefully BioWare pay attention to their community, and to be honest I'm prepared to buy their games on trust purely because I know they've been looking at what works and what doesn't, and tweaking accordingly.



Fine, it's a discrepancy. It's one I'd like to see fixed in ME3, but I doubt that me or anyone else is going to boycott ME3 because there's no nudity in it. If it was done because of the conservative outcry at ME1, then I understand that it was the wisest course of action, and also that BioWare aren't going to admit it on the forum, so we might as well shut up and stop pushing them to.



Oh, and has anybody else noticed the pure, unadulterated awesomeness of Stanley Woo's signature?

[Commander Darmok]

I'm surprised this is even a thread! I didn't see Stan's comments as condescending (perhaps because I agree with them.) However, a couple points.



People who started this seemed to be crying for nudity for the sake of nudity. Ridiculous - it's like all these people who are whining for loot for the sake of loot. I personally thought that all the romances were done well (re: artistically,) and that the Miranda scene was actually more racy than anything in ME1 (my wife agrees.) As this horse has been beaten to death, and we are now beating the maggots that are eating it, I would like to add something:



Much love to Stan for being awesome at what he does. I would like to say that I think the reason this forum gets so heated is because BW really does care about giving the fans what they want. I was pretty ticked when interrupts and individual squad commands got cut from ME1, but they're back, and I'm happy. Others got up in arms about NG+, and now it's in ME2. I think that the democracy/dictatorship comments had to happen because while they want to listen to the fans, they can't listen to all of them and have to make a decision. I'm glad I like the decisions they made, but if you don't like them, there are plenty of other BW games on the slate you may like better.

[cerberus1701]

Edit reason: Meant to edit my last post, quoted it instead.

Modifié par cerberus1701, 08 février 2010 - 07:22 .

[Mister Mage]

By the way, people should take middle school government courses again.



The US is not a democracy. The US is a Republic.



Dictatorships, Monarchies, and Oligarchies are not by definition evil.



When this power is exerted over their own product, rather than human rights, it is not by any means evil.

[pedal2metal]

Ok, I've read some more & maybe I can see what people are getting at. It's not so much about t/a/b & titular stimulation as it is about something flowing naturally to it's logical conclusion in a genuine romantic context within an RPG framework. Have I gotten that right?

If I had to compare ME2 w/ME1, I will say that ME2 stopped maybe one level short of ME1 where I would have naturally expected a trip to the captain's quarters after the teaser scene in the Engineering department. Yes, I agree that would have been natural. However, if they had done that & it was still at the level of ME1, it still would have been tasteful & not qualified as "nudity" IMO. Neither ME1 nor ME2 qualify as "nudity" even at the level of a Playboy magazine. I did think it was well-done in ME1 & fit well within the context of the romantic interest. I never really saw anything offensive or pornographic about any of it & I'm one of those "evil stereotypical conservatives".

Frankly, I'm ok with either ME1 or ME2 but if I summarized the issue correctly, I can actually see the OP point now. So long as Bioware keeps it contextually consistent & non-pornographic, it's all good to me. How's that for an old dog learning a new trick?!?


best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Modifié par pedal2metal, 08 février 2010 - 07:21 .

[Toastysoul]

pedal2metal wrote...

Well-said on both counts.  Those that are whining about this are really hard-up.  They can't get any real woman, don't have an internet connection to get their porn fix, & probably live in their parent's basements.  If I want some t/a I just go find my wife & before I got married, my girlfriend.  Sex is NOT why I play games & those that do, need to re-evaluate their lives, not whine in a forum about how Bioware isn't meeting their sexual needs.  That's so pathetic it's almost scary...

This quote only demonstates how narrow-minded your view is on the matter. Nobody here cares what you play games for, the developers least of all according to Khavos & Stanley.

I said it before and I'll say it again, nudity (or the desire for it) - in game is not perverted, shameful, or pathetic. It's got abolutely nothing to do with "getting a real woman", and you aren't the only gamer in here that's married. Perhaps you're the one that needs a re-evaluation if you can't see more into this discussion than just T&A. It's actually sad funny that the few of you who who agree with woo keep falling back on the same tired generalizations.

"Oh Woo, your my hero for dealing with this basement Nerdrage". /sarcasm

[Nastrod]

While I do think the response was a little harsh I also think to many need to stop playing mature games. If all you want is pixel boobies then your on the internet and there is plenty out there. This is a game about relationships from friend to love not about getting laid.



I thought the romance scenes were FAR better then in ME1 because it involved the personality more of each person. The one for Jack was one of the more emotionally touching scenes in the game for me since it was at least to me was all about her emotional walls coming down as they hugged and she cried with the make-up running down her face.

[JHorwath]

What! No nudity in ME2! I'm returning my copy. Just kidding. C'mon people it's clear Bioware/EA gave into the man on this one.

[tzeraph1]

jpetrey123 wrote...

i dont think you realize just how many of those threads there has been. if you people want nudity look at porn or watch HBO. i mean seriously they are pixels!!!

But, but, but... You mean, they're not REAL?!?