793 réponses à ce sujet

[drkl0rd2000]

haberman13 wrote...

Stanley Woo has been more than fair in this "discussion".   I respect and support Bioware's decision.

Think of the children man, you know some of them are playing this game despite the M rating.  Do you really need nudity in a video game?  Seems odd to me.

Sorry man for the quote but this just points to the one of the problems 10 fold.

Do we need to see people shooting people down like dogs in a video game? Seems odd to me.

You can not draw a line in the sand and use "think of the children" to enforce it. If that is truely your stand then what you are suggesting is we ban all Violence in games too, after all they are rated M as well

[Nastrod]

JHorwath wrote...

What! No nudity in ME2! I'm returning my copy. Just kidding. C'mon people it's clear Bioware/EA gave into the man on this one.

OMG so the only way for Bioware to stick it to the "man" is to show pixel boobs? How about they did not make nerd porn for game geeks but made a game about something deeper then pixel boobies and made a game about relationships,emotions,love, and so on.

[Mister Mage]

pedal2metal wrote...

Ok, I've read some more & maybe I can see what people are getting at. It's not so much about t/a/b & titular stimulation as it is about something flowing naturally to it's logical conclusion in a genuine romantic context within an RPG framework. Have I gotten that right?

If I had to compare ME2 w/ME1, I will say that ME2 stopped maybe one level short of ME1 where I would have naturally expected a trip to the captain's quarters after the teaser scene in the Engineering department. Yes, I agree that would have been natural. However, if they had done that & it was still at the level of ME1, it still would have been tasteful & not qualified as "nudity" IMO. Neither ME1 nor ME2 qualify as "nudity" even at the level of a Playboy magazine. I did think it was well-done in ME1 & fit well within the context of the romantic interest. I never really saw anything offensive or pornographic about any of it & I'm one of those "evil stereotypical conservatives".

I think the word you are looking for is "pornography" rather than "nudity".  Nudity is the absence of clothing.  In the first game, it was shown in a rather tasteful fashion.  But that doesn't make it "not nudity".  Nudes have been a non-pornographic aspect of art for millions of years.

I said it before and I'll say it again, nudity (or the desire for it) - in game is not perverted, shameful, or pathetic. It's got abolutely nothing to do with "getting a real woman", and you aren't the only gamer in here that's married. Perhaps you're the one that needs a re-evaluation if you can't see more into this discussion than just T&A. It's actually sad funny that the few of you who who agree with woo keep falling back on the same tired generalizations.

"Oh Woo, your my hero for dealing with this basement Nerdrage". /sarcasm

Certainly, I think you're generalizing based on what you want to see of the people you see as antagonists and enemies.  You seem to hand-pick rather weak arguments.  That's fine if you want to improve your own self-esteem and assurance of your own opinion.  But if you want actual discourse that involves an actual understanding of both sides of the issue, then what you have chosen is sorely inadequate.

Yes, there are really badly-formed arguments and ideas.  This is an internet forum for people whose only requirement is the purchase of a $60 video game.  This game has mass market appeal, and has sold 2 million copies.  Of course some people whose main strength is not debate and language will be amongst the commentators, myself likely included.

I agree with Woo, and I'm fine with nudity as an aspect of art.  Fancy that.

[cerberus1701]

JigPig wrote...

John Hyperion wrote...

If they want to put flying cows that shoot purple laser beams into mass effect 3 they will put flying cows into mass effect 3 regardless of what you, me, or random game mag # 37 says/thinks about it.

And the game will fail, lose millions of dollars for its parent company leading people like Mr. Woo to the unemployment line. That'll really be showing us fans who's boss!

Incorrect. Just look at Modern Warfare 2. The games sucks ass, yet people continue to buy and play it.

For the most part I like it. It doesn't suck. I like it. Not everything, but they tried to change it up...stretch a bit, try new things. Too many people who think it sucks think it does because they wanted a MW map pack with 5 new guns and have MW2 slapped on it.

I dare say some of the most vocal haters of ME2 are in essentially the same camp.

[pedal2metal]

Toastysoul wrote...


I said it before and I'll say it again, nudity (or the desire for it) - in game is not perverted, shameful, or pathetic.

I agree that sexual desire itself is none of those things.  However, the means by which such desire is fulfilled may in fact be one or more of those things.  Again, nudity for nudity's sake in a video game is what pornography is all about which is already servicing the market well.  There is no need for anyone to clamor for this in a story-telling video game within the context of the ME universe.  I'm not suggesting you specifically are clamoring for this (nor the OP) but it's unclear in some cases.  This would be a mistake business-wise to pursue this avenue & Bioware clearly understands this with or without our input.

I'm not inserting myself into the Woo-controversy.  I don't think he's quite the villian he's been painted out to be & he's been involved here for quite some time (years).  The fact that he genuinely engages in a transparent manner has got to be worth something.  How many development companies do this & even allow their employees this kind of lattitude?  Not many in my experience.  So we may disagree with his position, which is fine, but to vilify him personally & publicly like he has been seems like people taking anonymity over the top & acting in ways they never would in person.  Stanley doesn't have this option as he's a Bioware employee so it just seems like a double-standard to me.

Tasteful nudity as part of a natural story progression within the RPG game is a different matter from pornography with which I can agree with.  I personally didn't see anything I would classify as genuine nudity in ME1 so if people think that's nudity, we've simply got a communication issue going on which is easily resolved by listening to each other (which I've made an effor to do).  However, I often find that the suggestion of nudity is more powerful than nudity itself too.  Something to consider amongst all this clamor.  I find a woman in a beatiful dress more alluring than one completely naked, at least before the time is "right".  Everything has to happen progressively & with the right timing/taste, otherwise it just feels weak.  Anyhow, those are my thoughts.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[tzeraph1]

*keeps kicking*

[pedal2metal]

Mister Mage wrote...

I think the word you are looking for is "pornography" rather than "nudity".  Nudity is the absence of clothing.  In the first game, it was shown in a rather tasteful fashion.  But that doesn't make it "not nudity".  Nudes have been a non-pornographic aspect of art for millions of years.

I agree with Woo, and I'm fine with nudity as an aspect of art.  Fancy that.

Well-said on both counts.  I guess that's what I was trying to say.  While I think we all know the difference between pornography & nude art when we see it, it's difficult to articulate in words.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[JigPig]

cerberus1701 wrote...

JigPig wrote...

John Hyperion wrote...

If they want to put flying cows that shoot purple laser beams into mass effect 3 they will put flying cows into mass effect 3 regardless of what you, me, or random game mag # 37 says/thinks about it.

And the game will fail, lose millions of dollars for its parent company leading people like Mr. Woo to the unemployment line. That'll really be showing us fans who's boss!

Incorrect. Just look at Modern Warfare 2. The games sucks ass, yet people continue to buy and play it.

For the most part I like it. It doesn't suck. I like it. Not everything, but they tried to change it up...stretch a bit, try new things. Too many people who think it sucks think it does because they wanted a MW map pack with 5 new guns and have MW2 slapped on it.

I dare say some of the most vocal haters of ME2 are in essentially the same camp.

The first Modern warfare sucked too. Not worthy of the Call of duty title. Play the first Call of Duty, not the modern warfare trash.

[Toastysoul]

You can hardly claim "think of the children" when a parent gives a kid an M rated game. You actually need ID to purchase an M rated game from retailers, so if a parent chooses to buy the game for their kid, it's on them.

More over "think of the children" in reference to hiding boobs from their sight is the problem with the whole situation. A lot of people want their kids to pretend nothing on their bodies exists until they're 18, and it's sad. Lets avoid the subject of sexuality until the kid is no longer my responsibility = lame.

No I reject that argument in it's entirety. It's insulting. 14 year olds don't have the money to buy the game or the hardware it's played on. It's bad enough ME1 had to face criticism at all because of "think of the children". It's the parent's responsibility to make sure their kids turn out ok, not Bioware's. Nudity is not the problem here, how people in the country are dealing with ignoring it is.

Modifié par Toastysoul, 08 février 2010 - 07:44 .

[JHorwath]

Nastrod wrote...

JHorwath wrote...

What! No nudity in ME2! I'm returning my copy. Just kidding. C'mon people it's clear Bioware/EA gave into the man on this one.

OMG so the only way for Bioware to stick it to the "man" is to show pixel boobs? How about they did not make nerd porn for game geeks but made a game about something deeper then pixel boobies and made a game about relationships,emotions,love, and so on.

ME2 is rated 17+, right?  To me that is equivalent to an R rated movie.  If a game is going to be rated M for 'mature' I want some content that fits the bill.  Besides nudity isn't porn.  I'm not looking for porno games on the xbox.  I just want a mature game.  The first Mass Effect was fine.  The second one is good but not as good as the first.  I'm sorry but what's the difference between a pixel boob or pixelated love or pixelated relationships?  They both seem kind of nerdy and they should.  Like someone else said the 'nerd' card is kind of rendered useless on a video game forum. 

[pedal2metal]

Toastysoul wrote...

You can hardly claim "think of the children" when a parent gives a kid an M rated game. You actually need ID to purchase an M rated game from retailers, so if a parent chooses to buy the game for their kid, it's on them.

More over "think of the children" in reference to hiding boobs from their sight is the problem with the whole situation. A lot of people want their kids to pretend nothing on their bodies exists until they're 18, and it's sad. Lets avoid the subject of sexuality until the kid is no longer my responsibility = lame.

No I reject that argument in it's entirety. It's insulting. 14 year olds don't have the money to buy the game or the hardware it's played on. It's bad enough ME1 had to face criticism at all because of "think of the children". It's the parent's responsibility to make sure their kids turn out ok, not Bioware's. Nudity is not the problem here, how people in the country are dealing ignoring with it is.

I actually agree with you.  My kids don't play ME1/ME2 because I'm the parent & take ownership of that responsibility.  Regarding sexuality, it needs to be discussed & treated naturally before 18.  I find if it's treated respectfully & naturally at home, it doesn't attract the same attention as it might otherwise & now my kids are more able to approach the topic rationally.  I do find that any discussion of sexuality has to include the risks as well as the rewards.  Otherwise, it's just a "hollywood-show" vs. a realistic discussion.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[cerberus1701]

JigPig wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

JigPig wrote...

John Hyperion wrote...

If they want to put flying cows that shoot purple laser beams into mass effect 3 they will put flying cows into mass effect 3 regardless of what you, me, or random game mag # 37 says/thinks about it.

And the game will fail, lose millions of dollars for its parent company leading people like Mr. Woo to the unemployment line. That'll really be showing us fans who's boss!

Incorrect. Just look at Modern Warfare 2. The games sucks ass, yet people continue to buy and play it.

For the most part I like it. It doesn't suck. I like it. Not everything, but they tried to change it up...stretch a bit, try new things. Too many people who think it sucks think it does because they wanted a MW map pack with 5 new guns and have MW2 slapped on it.

I dare say some of the most vocal haters of ME2 are in essentially the same camp.

The first Modern warfare sucked too. Not worthy of the Call of duty title. Play the first Call of Duty, not the modern warfare trash.

Sorry, no. If I ever see another WWII FPS I'll projectile vomit.

[Nastrod]

JHorwath wrote...

Nastrod wrote...

JHorwath wrote...

What! No nudity in ME2! I'm returning my copy. Just kidding. C'mon people it's clear Bioware/EA gave into the man on this one.

OMG so the only way for Bioware to stick it to the "man" is to show pixel boobs? How about they did not make nerd porn for game geeks but made a game about something deeper then pixel boobies and made a game about relationships,emotions,love, and so on.

ME2 is rated 17+, right?  To me that is equivalent to an R rated movie.  If a game is going to be rated M for 'mature' I want some content that fits the bill.  Besides nudity isn't porn.  I'm not looking for porno games on the xbox.  I just want a mature game.  The first Mass Effect was fine.  The second one is good but not as good as the first.  I'm sorry but what's the difference between a pixel boob or pixelated love or pixelated relationships?  They both seem kind of nerdy and they should.  Like someone else said the 'nerd' card is kind of rendered useless on a video game forum. 

Go through all rated R movies and see how many do not have any nudity. Just because it is 17+ means nothing. It is mature content not sex/nudity. A game or movie can be muture without nudity. Do you think Halo, Bioshock, or any other M rated game should have nudity. That thinking is just silly.


Also for people getting upset that they do not  get to have fake sex in a game the nerd card fits great

[MadLaughter]

I consider myself a rational person, and I also think SW sometimes has a tendency to be condescending, But he was nice and helped me in a PM once, so it's all good.

[JHorwath]

Nastrod wrote...

JHorwath wrote...

Nastrod wrote...

JHorwath wrote...

What! No nudity in ME2! I'm returning my copy. Just kidding. C'mon people it's clear Bioware/EA gave into the man on this one.

OMG so the only way for Bioware to stick it to the "man" is to show pixel boobs? How about they did not make nerd porn for game geeks but made a game about something deeper then pixel boobies and made a game about relationships,emotions,love, and so on.

ME2 is rated 17+, right?  To me that is equivalent to an R rated movie.  If a game is going to be rated M for 'mature' I want some content that fits the bill.  Besides nudity isn't porn.  I'm not looking for porno games on the xbox.  I just want a mature game.  The first Mass Effect was fine.  The second one is good but not as good as the first.  I'm sorry but what's the difference between a pixel boob or pixelated love or pixelated relationships?  They both seem kind of nerdy and they should.  Like someone else said the 'nerd' card is kind of rendered useless on a video game forum. 

Go through all rated R movies and see how many do not have any nudity. Just because it is 17+ means nothing. It is mature content not sex/nudity. A game or movie can be muture without nudity. Do you think Halo, Bioshock, or any other M rated game should have nudity. That thinking is just silly.


Also for people getting upset that they do not  get to have fake sex in a game the nerd card fits great

I don't think it's silly.  That's just your opinion thinking it's silly.  So maybe it's silly to think what you think is silly in the first place or this whole thing is silly.  Or, or maybe your just a little silly willy pontasuarus that has no dilly for their pilly, oh gee willy.  Hmm, now that was kind of silly,   Okay, I'll stop now.  Anyway, what's wrong with being a nerd or a geek?  Are you a nerd/geek racist or something?  
 

Modifié par JHorwath, 08 février 2010 - 08:00 .

[Toastysoul]

Mister Mage wrote...

Certainly, I think you're generalizing based on what you want to see of the people you see as antagonists and enemies.  You seem to hand-pick rather weak arguments.  That's fine if you want to improve your own self-esteem and assurance of your own opinion.  But if you want actual discourse that involves an actual understanding of both sides of the issue, then what you have chosen is sorely inadequate.

Yes, there are really badly-formed arguments and ideas.  This is an internet forum for people whose only requirement is the purchase of a $60 video game.  This game has mass market appeal, and has sold 2 million copies.  Of course some people whose main strength is not debate and language will be amongst the commentators, myself likely included.

I agree with Woo, and I'm fine with nudity as an aspect of art.  Fancy that.

I don't see anyone in here as an "enemy", just people i vehemently disagree with. The arguments I selected are those that I felt most stronlgy opposed to, not just ones that were easy to argue against. I understand the other side of the argument. Many seem to feel that Bioware had both absolute lattitde in the development of the game, and that the presentation of the parts in question are fine. What I take issue with is the assertion that the latitude they have somehow alleviates them from any responsibilites to their customers. Yes, I do feel they have a certain responsibility to their customers, regardless of what you or anyone else has said. I never expected them to contact me and ask approval for anything. However, I do expect them to listen to us after we have purchased said product.

Secondly, and more-so than the first, I wholeheartedly disagree with how the LI scenes were presented in the game. Initially, it was just due to the conservative pull back compared to the first game, but after reading many other posters views, I have come to the feeling that the scenes simply felt empty. Due in large part to the lack of aforementioned nudity, but also the shallowness of the effort.

Everybody takes away something different from the game. For you possibly, and many others, it seems that the LI scenes held little weight for you. I, and many in this thread put a much greater emphasis on the subplots regarding PC/NPC relationships. Sill there are others on these forums that wish homosexual LI scenes to be scripted in. Your take on those interactions does not, and can not invalidate the experiences of others. If you were satisfied with it's presentation, then good for you. I geninuely wish I could say the same. That being said, I'm not. I and those of us that wanted more out of the LI subplots (be it nudity, depth of writing, or homosexuality) are left feeling disappointed, and it's not up to you to tell any of us to drop it.

[grimeyhippy]

AdrynBliss wrote...

jeez did you guys even pay attention to the OP?
This isn't about the actual nudity in and of itself. re-read the first paragraph.

'BioWare’s choice represents compromising its philosophy, perhaps even a core principle, BioWare defended in ME1.'


I competely agree with this and I was greatly disappointed to see bioware compromise it's own principles. Video games will gain no ground or respect as an artistic medum as long as companies bow to the opposition.

dont kid yourself bioware doesn't have "principles"

[Illum.se]

Rule nr. 1:
If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

It wasn't broken, but still they fixed it.

This "Woo" fellow wouldn't sound so annoyed if there was nothing to this simple fact. But there is, so he is... annoyed. Good on him, he pissed me off too with 100 "wasn't broken, still fixed it" thingies that changed the so called "Roleplaying perfected" concept to a less mature shoot em up experience. Life seems to be a bit "fair" at least in this infinitesimal department, maybe there is a god after all, eh Woo?

[John Hyperion]

Bigeyez wrote...

Of course a developer wants to make their game to be successful so they do listen to fan feedback, but at the end of the day if they feel that flying cows would make their game better, the game will have flying cows.

At the end of the day if you don't feel like going to class, you won't go to class. However the teacher will fail you and you'll be kicked out of school. Way to go dictator!

As far as your personal comments on Woo you're being a bit one sided aren't you? What about the tons of threads on this and the old forums where he and the other blue posters have joined into discussions and praised their fans? He's all of a sudden a bad guy and horrible evil person because he disagrees with your viewpoints on things?

I didn't say he was a bad guy. He said he was a bad guy, a dictator even. Not that I believed him, but the comment is so absurd, oblivious, and flat out untrue that you'd think it would have come from Fox News.

haberman13 wrote...

Stanley Woo has been more than fair in this "discussion".   I respect and support Bioware's decision.

Think of the children man, you know some of them are playing this game despite the M rating.  Do you really need nudity in a video game?  Seems odd to me.

Think of the children man, you some of them are playing this game despite the M rating. Do you really need violence in a video game? Seems odd to me.

Hell, the violence is far from the most offensive thing in ME and DA. There's racism, genocide, slavery, war mongering, religious zealotry, etc. In other words, it's much like the real world besides people have to have sex with their underwear on because Fox News might tattle.

Yes, this is giving into the idiots. No, this does not come off at all as some artistic stand by auteurs who refuse to have their vision compromised.

[Stanley Woo]

Let's try and keep this on-topic, please, everyone, otherwise I will be forced to shut it down. And I thought we were having a decent discussion up until these last couple of pages. Bringing in off-topic elements serves only to muddy the actual subject of discussion. And I am assured by many of the more rational and mature participants in this thread that the issue goes deeper than a mere "omg bewbz!" Thank you.

[lRavenl]

I haven't really took the time to read through all the post, just a few at the begining, but why is this even a topic..As far as im concerned the game is about the "Gameplay" AND the "Story". I am quite happy with the cut-scene depicting the romance in the game, they are well done and have a sord of charm and beauty to them. Why is this even a issue, im quite happy with Biowares romantic aspect of the game, its amazinly well done and im extremely happy they have one at all. As for people that are sensitive towards nudity and/or sexual content, its more and more common in movies, games, videos even books and to add, the game is about violence to begin with so if your uncomfortable playing such games don't. And last time I check a sexual relashionship between 2 partners is a natural process in live, it isnt at all offensive, if anything its better to understand what it implies. Anyways Biowares has done a great job so far and i hope they keep going with the amazing stories in all the games.

[tzeraph1]

It is perhaps to take it a little too far, but: Since there seems to be to prevailing sets of philosophies on this matter, why not include the option - Nudeness on/off.



I dont mind the nude scenes, but as I dont want the "other side" to impose their philosophy on my gaming, I must also obide to the same rules, hence not to impose my philosophy to theirs.



How about that Bioware? Would it be manageble (since the whole fuss is about one or two scenes anyhow).

[JHorwath]

tzeraph1 wrote...

It is perhaps to take it a little too far, but: Since there seems to be to prevailing sets of philosophies on this matter, why not include the option - Nudeness on/off.

I dont mind the nude scenes, but as I dont want the "other side" to impose their philosophy on my gaming, I must also obide to the same rules, hence not to impose my philosophy to theirs.

How about that Bioware? Would it be manageble (since the whole fuss is about one or two scenes anyhow).

Actually, that sounds very sensible.  Games do that for gore so why not for the nudity, if applicable.  Not that every game needs to have nudity or anything. 

The nudity issue is getting old just like violence.  I mean you can turn on basic cable and see poorly edited movies that show more than ME 1 even dreamed of and they don't get the ire of fox news.  Maybe bioware should put some fox news adds in their games to get them to back off.  Ah, good old America.  A place where chainsawing someone in half is more acceptable than a brief and beautiful side shot of the nude female body.  Just kidding America, I love you.

Modifié par JHorwath, 08 février 2010 - 08:45 .

[Chaz R]

The more boobs the better, no honestly who cares this is a game rating issue and all games that have nudity are M for mature, they tell you what it will have in the back and they cannot be bought by anyone under 17. If the developers choose to have nudity that is their right, we still live by the constitution don't we?