793 réponses à ce sujet

[Shady41]

I'm extremely impressed Mr. Woo, by the level of response (about a page) in addressing everyone in this forum thread. It's rare for a company to interact this much with their fans, and while I sure didn't read every point-counterpoint you made I appreciate the level of devotion you have to the forums here.

[ranzarok]

Personally, I don't have a big beef with the way they handled the "romantic" scenes in ME2.

The issue I see is that in ME1, the big payoff of having developed a relationship with the character of your choice was a tastefully done, endearing scene of the two characters expressing their feeling for one another. In ME2, quite a few of them just seemed cartoonie (?).

If that's the way that Bioware wants to do it, I'm ok with it...it's their game and it's not horrible. I just thought they did it better in ME1.

Maybe I am just looking back with fond memories or something.

[tzeraph1]

JHorwath wrote...

tzeraph1 wrote...

It is perhaps to take it a little too far, but: Since there seems to be to prevailing sets of philosophies on this matter, why not include the option - Nudeness on/off.

I dont mind the nude scenes, but as I dont want the "other side" to impose their philosophy on my gaming, I must also obide to the same rules, hence not to impose my philosophy to theirs.

How about that Bioware? Would it be manageble (since the whole fuss is about one or two scenes anyhow).

Actually, that sounds very sensible.  Games do that for gore so why not for the nudity, if applicable.  Not that every game needs to have nudity or anything. 

The nudity issue is getting old just like violence.  I mean you can turn on basic cable and see poorly edited movies that show more than ME 1 even dreamed of and they don't get the ire of fox news.  Maybe bioware should put some fox news adds in their games to get them to back off.  Ah, good old America.  A place where chainsawing someone in half is more acceptable than a brief and beautiful side shot of the nude female body.  Just kidding America, I love you.

First time i've been called Sensible Thanks nonetheless

/ tz

Edit: Loved the Eminem quote

Modifié par tzeraph1, 08 février 2010 - 09:03 .

[Tsumoro]

I personally felt the romance sections in ME2 were tastefully done. I however would of liked the partial nudity, not really for titillation purposes but more for it being to do with the level of realism behind simple human contact.



A couple of things do nark me about in the mannerism in which Bioware responded. For one, I do not like to be insulted nor demeaned as a fan for any of the games I play, especially by the company who wants me to play them. I have been a long standing fan to Bioware games since Baldur's gate and I will continue to purchase their products because I really feel they branch on gaming excellence. Always have done in my opinion. I feel Mr. Woo should apologise to those he offended, intentionally or non-intentionally or if he wants to re-confirm his answer that does not involve attacking it's fan base. Now, I know critique can be hard to take, but the critiques are your friends, they let you know when something is up.



I also dislike that the notion of 'sex' or 'nudity' is in itself 'puerile' or 'immature'. We do it, you do it, your mother and father do it (perhaps more often you would like or care to remember). ME1 sex scene, or romance scene however you want to label it to me lacked the emotional contact that ME2 has towards it's representative romance choices and I am glad that Bioware made the romances in ME2 more powerful in the romance department, a testament to the writing staffs skills behind Tali, Miranda, Jack, Garrus etc personalities.



Getting back to ME1 however, I know Bioware was slammed by morality idiots who only serve to score cheap politic points, getting the people riled up and backing against it. It's sad, but true. But the sex scenes showed no nudity greater than you would of found in romance films such as Notting Hill with Julia Roberts which is a very touching film (well I like it anyway).



I would ask Bioware to be true to themselves and not feel the need to censor their own work and if they could capture the same sultry love scenes from ME1 combined with the emotional depth as ME2 then you're on to a winner.



The truly sad thing with all this is that gaming itself is a form of entertainment much like films are, just different mediums, but games are still considered 'Juvenile' and 'childish' and in most occasions aimed at men, being a 'boys only' club. Times have changed, your audience is older, many of them have had the joys of sexual gratification themselves or in the realms of exploring what is a wondrous act.



Censorship affects us on so many invisible levels, sometimes it goes straight over our heads. We are told what a danger things are to us and we are led to a life without choice, without learning from consequence. It starts of small like this, sexual undertones in games... then it moves to films, suggestive comments in music. Then once they have beaten us down, they move to violence, to a point where a knife or a gun is shunned in games and films, the cooking channel blurring out the chef's knife as he prepares a meal. Then the kitchen whisk will become the most deadly weapon to man.



Tying up, Bioware I feel you did a good job with ME2, I have played and completed it from start to finish 4 times now. I have enjoyed it's journey and the experiences behind it's story telling and I hope ME3 is a wonderful success and you have my name down already on the pre-order.



But, do not call us names, give a proper response on why you chose to move that way, or simply don't comment at all. Keep the same level as emotion as ME2 and the sultry scenes as ME1. If you don't, then that's your choice, but be it because it's your choice and not because you are concerned about the result. Treat us as adults and we will judge your content as such.



Sorry for the long post, but during one of my play-throughs of ME2 my girlfriend was watching and she jokingly remarked about how my character was having sex fully clothed. I then went on about the stick in the media about the first game about it etc until she pretty much stopped listening and went played Batman. It made me feel that this was a strong enough topic to give my own 2 cents to.

[pedal2metal]

Stanley Woo, you have my respect. I can't imagine wading through all of this & actually posting intelligent, rational positions in as respectful & professional manner as you did. Suffice to say, ME1 & ME2 are both good games, not without their faults, but good nonetheless. I appreciate you taking the time. I totally agree that Bioware's transparency is second to none & while I may disagree w/Bioware at times, I value the interaction of the relationship it has with it's fans.



BTW, is there a search function in these forums? The old one had one & I can't seem to find the substitute in the new one.



thanks & best regards,

Pedal2Metal

[tzeraph1]

Tsumoro wrote...

I personally felt the romance sections in ME2 were tastefully done. I however would of liked the partial nudity, not really for titillation purposes but more for it being to do with the level of realism behind simple human contact.

A couple of things do nark me about in the mannerism in which Bioware responded. For one, I do not like to be insulted nor demeaned as a fan for any of the games I play, especially by the company who wants me to play them. I have been a long standing fan to Bioware games since Baldur's gate and I will continue to purchase their products because I really feel they branch on gaming excellence. Always have done in my opinion. I feel Mr. Woo should apologise to those he offended, intentionally or non-intentionally or if he wants to re-confirm his answer that does not involve attacking it's fan base. Now, I know critique can be hard to take, but the critiques are your friends, they let you know when something is up.

I also dislike that the notion of 'sex' or 'nudity' is in itself 'puerile' or 'immature'. We do it, you do it, your mother and father do it (perhaps more often you would like or care to remember). ME1 sex scene, or romance scene however you want to label it to me lacked the emotional contact that ME2 has towards it's representative romance choices and I am glad that Bioware made the romances in ME2 more powerful in the romance department, a testament to the writing staffs skills behind Tali, Miranda, Jack, Garrus etc personalities.

Getting back to ME1 however, I know Bioware was slammed by morality idiots who only serve to score cheap politic points, getting the people riled up and backing against it. It's sad, but true. But the sex scenes showed no nudity greater than you would of found in romance films such as Notting Hill with Julia Roberts which is a very touching film (well I like it anyway).

I would ask Bioware to be true to themselves and not feel the need to censor their own work and if they could capture the same sultry love scenes from ME1 combined with the emotional depth as ME2 then you're on to a winner.

The truly sad thing with all this is that gaming itself is a form of entertainment much like films are, just different mediums, but games are still considered 'Juvenile' and 'childish' and in most occasions aimed at men, being a 'boys only' club. Times have changed, your audience is older, many of them have had the joys of sexual gratification themselves or in the realms of exploring what is a wondrous act.

Censorship affects us on so many invisible levels, sometimes it goes straight over our heads. We are told what a danger things are to us and we are led to a life without choice, without learning from consequence. It starts of small like this, sexual undertones in games... then it moves to films, suggestive comments in music. Then once they have beaten us down, they move to violence, to a point where a knife or a gun is shunned in games and films, the cooking channel blurring out the chef's knife as he prepares a meal. Then the kitchen whisk will become the most deadly weapon to man.

Tying up, Bioware I feel you did a good job with ME2, I have played and completed it from start to finish 4 times now. I have enjoyed it's journey and the experiences behind it's story telling and I hope ME3 is a wonderful success and you have my name down already on the pre-order.

But, do not call us names, give a proper response on why you chose to move that way, or simply don't comment at all. Keep the same level as emotion as ME2 and the sultry scenes as ME1. If you don't, then that's your choice, but be it because it's your choice and not because you are concerned about the result. Treat us as adults and we will judge your content as such.

Sorry for the long post, but during one of my play-throughs of ME2 my girlfriend was watching and she jokingly remarked about how my character was having sex fully clothed. I then went on about the stick in the media about the first game about it etc until she pretty much stopped listening and went played Batman. It made me feel that this was a strong enough topic to give my own 2 cents to.

Even-minded and many good thoughts. Didnt mind the lenght of the post really

[pedal2metal]

Tsumoro wrote...

I personally felt the romance sections in ME2 were tastefully done. I however would of liked the partial nudity, not really for titillation purposes but more for it being to do with the level of realism behind simple human contact.

A couple of things do nark me about in the mannerism in which Bioware responded. For one, I do not like to be insulted nor demeaned as a fan for any of the games I play, especially by the company who wants me to play them. I have been a long standing fan to Bioware games since Baldur's gate and I will continue to purchase their products because I really feel they branch on gaming excellence. Always have done in my opinion. I feel Mr. Woo should apologise to those he offended, intentionally or non-intentionally or if he wants to re-confirm his answer that does not involve attacking it's fan base. Now, I know critique can be hard to take, but the critiques are your friends, they let you know when something is up.

I also dislike that the notion of 'sex' or 'nudity' is in itself 'puerile' or 'immature'. We do it, you do it, your mother and father do it (perhaps more often you would like or care to remember). ME1 sex scene, or romance scene however you want to label it to me lacked the emotional contact that ME2 has towards it's representative romance choices and I am glad that Bioware made the romances in ME2 more powerful in the romance department, a testament to the writing staffs skills behind Tali, Miranda, Jack, Garrus etc personalities.

Getting back to ME1 however, I know Bioware was slammed by morality idiots who only serve to score cheap politic points, getting the people riled up and backing against it. It's sad, but true. But the sex scenes showed no nudity greater than you would of found in romance films such as Notting Hill with Julia Roberts which is a very touching film (well I like it anyway).

I would ask Bioware to be true to themselves and not feel the need to censor their own work and if they could capture the same sultry love scenes from ME1 combined with the emotional depth as ME2 then you're on to a winner.

The truly sad thing with all this is that gaming itself is a form of entertainment much like films are, just different mediums, but games are still considered 'Juvenile' and 'childish' and in most occasions aimed at men, being a 'boys only' club. Times have changed, your audience is older, many of them have had the joys of sexual gratification themselves or in the realms of exploring what is a wondrous act.

Censorship affects us on so many invisible levels, sometimes it goes straight over our heads. We are told what a danger things are to us and we are led to a life without choice, without learning from consequence. It starts of small like this, sexual undertones in games... then it moves to films, suggestive comments in music. Then once they have beaten us down, they move to violence, to a point where a knife or a gun is shunned in games and films, the cooking channel blurring out the chef's knife as he prepares a meal. Then the kitchen whisk will become the most deadly weapon to man.

Tying up, Bioware I feel you did a good job with ME2, I have played and completed it from start to finish 4 times now. I have enjoyed it's journey and the experiences behind it's story telling and I hope ME3 is a wonderful success and you have my name down already on the pre-order.

But, do not call us names, give a proper response on why you chose to move that way, or simply don't comment at all. Keep the same level as emotion as ME2 and the sultry scenes as ME1. If you don't, then that's your choice, but be it because it's your choice and not because you are concerned about the result. Treat us as adults and we will judge your content as such.

Sorry for the long post, but during one of my play-throughs of ME2 my girlfriend was watching and she jokingly remarked about how my character was having sex fully clothed. I then went on about the stick in the media about the first game about it etc until she pretty much stopped listening and went played Batman. It made me feel that this was a strong enough topic to give my own 2 cents to.

Fair enough.  I'll add that "saturation" has the same effects as "censorship" just on the other side of the coin.  The effect is the same.  To essentially deprecate one's own individual thoughts/perceptions by changing the "tide level".  So it goes both ways.  In some ways, an empty background allows one to make a more clarifying choice vs. a saturated background.  Just food for thought...

Where's the balance?  Well that's always a judgement call & will always be an endless argument so ultimately it ends up being some "statistical average" across all prevailing opinions.  In general, I'm w/you.  I think ME1/ME2 are both fine.  But the "The Watchmen" approach was just funny (as another poster remarked) & not nearly as romantically enticing as even ME2 was.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Khavos]

John Hyperion wrote...

Khavos wrote...

2.  Bioware's not a dictatorship, no.  Game design is.  If you can point to a design decision that you or any other fan made in place of Bioware, though, I'll retract that statement.  

The United States is a dictatorship. If you can point to a decision that you or any other voter made in place of the US government, I'll retract that statement.

You and Mr. Woo should look up what dictatorship means and why people dislike them. It's an asinine term to use, especially coming from someone who probably isn't the one making the big decisions about anything.

Plenty of others have pointed out decisions made by voters in place of the United States government, but I'll go ahead and go with Prop 8. 

Please retract your incorrect statement regarding the United States' form of government and answer my question. 

[John Hyperion]

Khavos wrote...

Plenty of others have pointed out decisions made by voters in place of the United States government, but I'll go ahead and go with Prop 8. 

Please retract your incorrect statement regarding the United States' form of government and answer my question. 

If you don't understand analogies you shouldn't use them. I'm pointing out this notion that devs for multi-million games operate under some bubble is insane. The very existence of this forum is a testament to how oblivious you'd have to be to believe that.

Like with Prop 8, the people who will ultimately determine the legality of it are the Supreme Court of the United States. Therefore, by your reasoning, California is a dictatorship run by the Supreme Court because they make the final final decision.

[Khavos]

John Hyperion wrote...

You mean like how gamers vote with their wallets and are the only reason BioWare, let alone Mass Effect, continue to exist?
 

No.  Referendums are simply not analogous to purchasing a game.  Referendums, in terms of game design, would be developers asking gamers to vote on features they want implemented in the game and then implementing them without reserve.

It's not the "ultimate" say when the devs aren't one homogenious group and they have various people to please including their bosses, the reviewers, the fans and now, apparently, idiots on Fox News.

It IS the ultimate say.  The development team makes every decision about what goes into the game.  They can - and do - listen to reviewers, fans, and other media, but whether they CHOOSE to act based on those opinions is up to the development team.

I do not understand why this is fundamentally such a difficult concept for you to grasp.  Do you really believe that you've EVER made a decision about game design on a game whose development team you were not a part of?  I'd still like to see just one example.

[Khavos]

John Hyperion wrote...

Khavos wrote...

Plenty of others have pointed out decisions made by voters in place of the United States government, but I'll go ahead and go with Prop 8. 

Please retract your incorrect statement regarding the United States' form of government and answer my question. 

If you don't understand analogies you shouldn't use them. I'm pointing out this notion that devs for multi-million games operate under some bubble is insane. The very existence of this forum is a testament to how oblivious you'd have to be to believe that.

Like with Prop 8, the people who will ultimately determine the legality of it are the Supreme Court of the United States. Therefore, by your reasoning, California is a dictatorship run by the Supreme Court because they make the final final decision.

We need to get away from government analogies, because you don't understand how our government works.  The Supreme Court cannot write or enact legislation.  They can review it and declare it unconstitutional, but that's it.  Even in that case they couldn't be construed as having the "final decision" because the constitution can always be amended to make something previously unconstitutional constitutional.

That doesn't matter.  Once again: when have you as a gamer ever made a design decision on any game whose development team you were not a part of?

[John Hyperion]

Khavos wrote...

This The Supreme Court cannot write or enact legislation.  They can review it and declare it unconstitutional, but that's it.

Wow, really? And here I'm sure no one had any clue how that worked considering that's exactly what I said the court would decide in my previous post.

That doesn't matter.  Once again: when have you as a gamer ever made a design decision on any game whose development team you were not a part of?

When has any dictator opened up a feedback forum? When has any dictator been owned wholly by another country that can shut that dictator down at a moments notice if he feels like? When has any dictator's existence been dependent solely on what his subjects think about his results? When has a dictator been easily swayed by fears from 5 minute tabloid news pieces? Do you get it yet? Do I need to remind you that dictatorships are typically run by one person and this is not how BioWare operates? It's a stupid analogy and everyone but you seems to have accepted that.

Moreover, people hate dictatorships for a reason so using this analogy makes BioWare look bad. Why do you think this is a good thing?

[Khavos]

John Hyperion wrote...

Khavos wrote...

This The Supreme Court cannot write or enact legislation.  They can review it and declare it unconstitutional, but that's it.

Wow, really? And here I'm sure no one had any clue how that worked considering that's exactly what I said the court would decide in my previous post.

That doesn't matter.  Once again: when have you as a gamer ever made a design decision on any game whose development team you were not a part of?

When has any dictator opened up a feedback forum? When has any dictator been owned wholly by another country that can shut that dictator down at a moments notice if he feels like? When has any dictator's existence been dependent solely on what his subjects think about his results? When has a dictator been easily swayed by fears from 5 minute tabloid news pieces? Do you get it yet? Do I need to remind you that dictatorships are typically run by one person and this is not how BioWare operates? It's a stupid analogy and everyone but you seems to have accepted that.

Moreover, people hate dictatorships for a reason so using this analogy makes BioWare look bad. Why do you think this is a good thing?

Again, you need to distinguish between what he said and what you think he said.  He did not say "Bioware is a dictatorship!"  He said that game design is.  There is a difference that you seem incapable of grasping.

The analogy means that game designers make the decisions about their games, not the gamers.  As far as I can tell, you have absolutely no argument against this, and you're simply dealing with some hurt feelings.  Bioware clearly listens to its fans.  It clearly listens to reviews.  It clearly listens to the media response to its games.  It has said all of those things, and more.  That does not change the fact that the game design decisions ARE NOT MADE by the fans, the reviewers, or the larger news media.  

You're not disagreeing with me.  You're simly trying to argue about something else.  You know that you do not make design decisions.  You know that reviewers don't make design decisions.  You know that the media doesn't make design decisions.  You know that Bioware makes design decisions.  

What is your problem, aside from a lack of education regarding political systems? 

[Mev186]

pedal2metal wrote...

Stanley Woo, you have my respect. I can't imagine wading through all of this & actually posting intelligent, rational positions in as respectful & professional manner as you did. Suffice to say, ME1 & ME2 are both good games, not without their faults, but good nonetheless. I appreciate you taking the time. I totally agree that Bioware's transparency is second to none & while I may disagree w/Bioware at times, I value the interaction of the relationship it has with it's fans.

BTW, is there a search function in these forums? The old one had one & I can't seem to find the substitute in the new one.

thanks & best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Yeah.. The search function would have come in handy a few pages back. Stanley did explain his remarks. Too bad It was buried in the pile of " Moar Bewbs!" posts. Perhaps a Sticky could put this topic to rest ?

[Mev186]

pedal2metal wrote...

Stanley Woo, you have my respect. I can't imagine wading through all of this & actually posting intelligent, rational positions in as respectful & professional manner as you did. Suffice to say, ME1 & ME2 are both good games, not without their faults, but good nonetheless. I appreciate you taking the time. I totally agree that Bioware's transparency is second to none & while I may disagree w/Bioware at times, I value the interaction of the relationship it has with it's fans.

BTW, is there a search function in these forums? The old one had one & I can't seem to find the substitute in the new one.

thanks & best regards,
Pedal2Metal

I agree completley,  The search function would have come in handy a few pages back. Stanley did explain his remarks. Too bad It was buried in the pile of " Moar Bewbs!" posts. Perhaps a Sticky could put this topic to rest ?

Modifié par Mev186, 08 février 2010 - 11:34 .

[vindina]

my problem with the sex scenes .....miranda'a lacey bra i'm sure they could have come up with better undies !! seriously it looked like a many times washed granny bra... should have been made out of the same stuff as her outfir imo !! bit like the undies in doa everyone had on white granny pants at least give people different colours ...or stains X) lol

[Bigeyez]

John Hyperion wrote...

Bigeyez wrote...

Of course a developer wants to make their game to be successful so they do listen to fan feedback, but at the end of the day if they feel that flying cows would make their game better, the game will have flying cows.

At the end of the day if you don't feel like going to class, you won't go to class. However the teacher will fail you and you'll be kicked out of school. Way to go dictator!

As far as your personal comments on Woo you're being a bit one sided aren't you? What about the tons of threads on this and the old forums where he and the other blue posters have joined into discussions and praised their fans? He's all of a sudden a bad guy and horrible evil person because he disagrees with your viewpoints on things?

I didn't say he was a bad guy. He said he was a bad guy, a dictator even. Not that I believed him, but the comment is so absurd, oblivious, and flat out untrue that you'd think it would have come from Fox News.

Ok now I just think you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Your first "response" has nothing to do with anything that I typed and it doesn't even adress the analogy I made correctly, so I'll just ignore that and move on.

As far as your second response, you seem to be completely obssessed by the word Dictator. Would you have liked it better if he said King, Ruler, or a number of other words that would have still gotten his point across?

I've tried to explain to you twice what his point was and it's seriously not that hard to grasp or understand.
Game Developers make games, period. Game Developers put whatever they want to in their games, period. The only interaction consumers have with this process is choosing whether to buy the game or not, period.

I don't know how I can be any more clear then that.

[Looy]

Why does anyone actually care about this? Its no ones business what Bioware does and doesn't do with their games.

[Tokuraws]

Stanley Woo wrote...


I think this passage might have contributed to the accusations of arrogance and condescension, but I was merely speaking the truth. I have no doubt in my mind that, if the project directors decided to not have purple-bellied quatloos in Mass Effect 3, it would be very difficult to change their mind regardless of whether you were a customer, fan, media outlet, the government, or Fancypants the Flying Zebra. This makes a lot more sense when you consider that, by the time you hear about some features, they're already a done deal. Or, put another way, by the time you hear that a certain thing isn't in or has changed, it may very well be too late to do anything about it. That's just the way any huge project works. Some stuff, you talk about early in the process. Some you talk about late in the process. Some things can change easily, some things take work to change, and some require extensive breakdown or complete destruction to change.

When the heck did I make that original post they're quoting from, anyway? Sheesh, I can hardly remember. But I will address some of the comments made in this thread, not in the hopes of changing anyone's mind, but hopefully to make them feel a tiny bit less bad and/or to make them think I'm slightly less of a horrendous jerkface than they currently believe. Then, I can take a few questions, since I don't think I'm busy Sunday.

I'll make a new post cuz this one's getting long, and I'm well aware of the TL;DR factor in online message boards.

"BioWare's Adrien Cho said the team "wanted to make sure that absolutely
every issue [critics and players] brought up was addressed." In that
light, the changes make sense; almost all of them result in less
hassle. They also decrease the player's input in how the game is
played, at least after the initial class selection."

[Vlainstrike]

lRavenl wrote...

I haven't really took the time to read through all the post, just a few at the begining, but why is this even a topic...

Stopped reading right there - if you don't have enough respect about the topic to actually bother reading it, or at least read far enough to understand what it's really about you can't expect anybody to care about your opinion either.

Modifié par Vlainstrike, 09 février 2010 - 12:20 .

[Dearthenon]

Having read _only_ Stanley Woo's comments on the thread (via the Bioware button), your comments still come off as condescending and clearly consider the commentary of the members of the board to be irrelevant, misguided, and/or unworthy of your consideration.

[The Demonologist]

We're soooooo gonna be 'The Man' that Bioware bows to when we see softcore porn in the next installment.



Part mockery of us, part mockery of how things tend to get 'overdone' when people so rabidly rage for it.

[Vlainstrike]

The Demonologist wrote...

We're soooooo gonna be 'The Man' that Bioware bows to when we see softcore porn in the next installment.

Part mockery of us, part mockery of how things tend to get 'overdone' when people so rabidly rage for it.

Well hopefully the message Bioware takes from us is to just do it tastefully and honestly when the story calls for it.

Modifié par Vlainstrike, 09 février 2010 - 01:26 .

[Wicked 702]

John Hyperion wrote...

Khavos wrote...

Plenty of others have pointed out decisions made by voters in place of the United States government, but I'll go ahead and go with Prop 8. 

Please retract your incorrect statement regarding the United States' form of government and answer my question. 

If you don't understand analogies you shouldn't use them. I'm pointing out this notion that devs for multi-million games operate under some bubble is insane. The very existence of this forum is a testament to how oblivious you'd have to be to believe that.

Like with Prop 8, the people who will ultimately determine the legality of it are the Supreme Court of the United States. Therefore, by your reasoning, California is a dictatorship run by the Supreme Court because they make the final final decision.

Civics lesson FAIL!